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Grunfeld a Great GM. Proves Doubters Wrong

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Re: Grunfeld a Great GM. Proves Doubters Wrong 

Post#1481 » by payitforward » Sun Jul 20, 2014 1:01 pm

dckingsfan wrote:
Kanyewest wrote:
closg00 wrote:Well Kanye, we both had a terrible win% AND were bad to mediocre for most of Ernie's tenure.

True- EG has been mediocre. Just wouldn't say he's the worst :D

Agreed, probably just bottom 1/3rd

Oh, I think he's worse than that! But, why quibble? Even if that's all one could say:

how does a guy whose performance is in the bottom 1/3 keep his job for over a decade?
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Re: Grunfeld a Great GM. Proves Doubters Wrong 

Post#1482 » by Brenice » Sun Jul 20, 2014 1:23 pm

It's not that Ernie doesn't have responsibility, but when you are under orders, you take the best offer. What you want and what is available can be 2 different things. Unless you have evidence of a better offer, you are just assuming.

At this point, you look at ownership. Everyone knows there is a huge difference between the Redskins under Jack KentCook compared to Dan Snyder. The Wizards/Bullets under Abe Pollin stunk for 25 years before Ernie was hired. Ernie arrived and things started getting better DESPITE Pollin, not perfect, but better. Then Ted took over and Ernie and the Wizards are on the rise.
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Re: Grunfeld a Great GM. Proves Doubters Wrong 

Post#1483 » by payitforward » Sun Jul 20, 2014 1:29 pm

milellie111 wrote:Where would this franchise be without Ernie Grunfeld? Would we be in current conversations for contenders for the ECF?
Would we be in a position for Durant in 2 years?
Would we have Wall and Beal?
Would we have Wittman?
Would we have resigned Gortat?
Would we have Pierce, Humphries, and Blair for bargain deals?

All good questions for the doubters to think about. Pretty sure the answers will be disappointing.

Great questions. Here are some answers, and some questions for you:

"position for Durant..." -- DC is KD's home town. The most he's said is that if he played anywhere but OKC, he'd consider playing in DC. How is that to Ernie's credit?

"Wall and Beal" -- yes, we'd have them w/o Ernie. That is, we'd have them if we had the draft picks that got them for us.

"Wittman?" -- Huh? Randy was promoted from an assistant coach. Are you suggesting there was competition for his services as Head Coach? And he came here because of Ernie? Any GM who wanted Wittman as his HC could have hired him anywhere along the line.

"...resigned Gortat" -- Well, a good GM wouldn't have been in a position to need him so badly that he had to accept a complete screwing in a trade for him! Gortat cost us $14m last year, along w/ a R1 pick in the best draft in a decade. Once that's behind you, a sunk cost, then exactly why don't you think another GM would have re-signed Gortat?

"Pierce, Humphries, Blair for bargain deals" -- good player choices, and Ernie gets props for them! And if by "bargain deals" you mean that they are likely to be highly productive for dollar spent on them, then you are right. And Pierce is also a good marketing acquisition. But the deals themselve are simply what the market decided they were worth at present. Still, this is as close as you've come to making a real point in Ernie's favor, so congratulations.

Now, let me ask you some similar questions. "Without Ernie Grunfeld, would we..."

...have Kawhi Leonard, Kenneth Faried and Chandler Parsons on our team? Those are three of the very best young players in the league. Of course, had we picked them we would certainly not have had a shot at Bradley Beal. But we would quite likely had Andre Drummond available to us.

...have a bench filled w/ outstanding young prospects like Jae Crowder, Kyle O'Quinn, Nate Wolters and Jordan Clarkson?

...have Tyler Ennis or Mitch McGary from the recent draft?

...have tons of cap room (not having made the Okariza trade) to add excellent players via trade and free agency -- and 5 of the best young stars in the league (Wall, Leonard, Faried, Parsons & Drummond), and lots of other gifted prospects as well, to attract them?

Etc. etc. etc.
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Re: Grunfeld a Great GM. Proves Doubters Wrong 

Post#1484 » by payitforward » Sun Jul 20, 2014 1:38 pm

Brenice wrote:It's not that Ernie doesn't have responsibility, but when you are under orders, you take the best offer. What you want and what is available can be 2 different things. Unless you have evidence of a better offer, you are just assuming.

At this point, you look at ownership. Everyone knows there is a huge difference between the Redskins under Jack KentCook compared to Dan Snyder. The Wizards/Bullets under Abe Pollin stunk for 25 years before Ernie was hired. Ernie arrived and things started getting better DESPITE Pollin, not perfect, but better. Then Ted took over and Ernie and the Wizards are on the rise.

BS, pure and simple. You can tell what's possible by watching what other GMs do. And if in 11 years as a GM your team has posted a record in the bottom 10% of the league, you are gone. Period.

When I see a guy stand over his bowl of soup and p#ss in it, I don't need "evidence" that there was something better for him to do.

He's not mine to hire or fire. If he were, he'd have been gone a long time ago. Given he's still here, if the old dog learns new tricks, I'll be delighted. And, in fact, Ernie has made good moves this off-season. For those he gets props.

And because we give him props for his good moves, we also get to point out the many, many idiotic moves he's made: draft picks, FA signings, trades, etc. The win-loss record he's compiled reflects his work.

Edit -- ...and that's enough of that! I'm going to concentrate on what we do now and soon. That won't include contending for a title, but I've given up on that. And the Wizards should be fun to watch this year and next. After that, it'll be time for the next rebuild.
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Re: Grunfeld a Great GM. Proves Doubters Wrong 

Post#1485 » by Illmatic12 » Sun Jul 20, 2014 2:10 pm

Re: the Gortat trade, the first round pick we gave Phoenix turned into Tyler Ennis, who based on SL play has an uphill climb to prove he's even a rotational NBA player.

Of course we probably would have been more like a 38-40 win team without Gortat, maybe we missed out on drafting someone like Jusuf Nurkic who may be the next great Euro center-- but probably won't come over for years. Instead, we have a legit starting C who will help us compete right now.

That trade was a win-win for both sides, in my book.
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Re: Grunfeld a Great GM. Proves Doubters Wrong 

Post#1486 » by DCZards » Sun Jul 20, 2014 3:17 pm

payitforward wrote:
Now, let me ask you some similar questions. "Without Ernie Grunfeld, would we..."

...have Kawhi Leonard, Kenneth Faried and Chandler Parsons on our team? Those are three of the very best young players in the league. Of course, had we picked them we would certainly not have had a shot at Bradley Beal. But we would quite likely had Andre Drummond available to us.

...have a bench filled w/ outstanding young prospects like Jae Crowder, Kyle O'Quinn, Nate Wolters and Jordan Clarkson?

...have Tyler Ennis or Mitch McGary from the recent draft?

...have tons of cap room (not having made the Okariza trade) to add excellent players via trade and free agency -- and 5 of the best young stars in the league (Wall, Leonard, Faried, Parsons & Drummond), and lots of other gifted prospects as well, to attract them?

Etc. etc. etc.


Leonard, Faried, Parsons, Crowder, Drummond, O'Quinn, Wolters, Wall. That's a lottery team, PIF. That Zards' team doesn't come close to making the playoffs last season and giving the Washington NBA franchise the stature and visibility it currently enjoys, which has helped the Zards appeal to solid free agents at bargain prices this off season.

The only players on your wish list with significant upside, imo, are Leonard, Parsons, Drummond and Wall. And, while I love Drummond, I'm happy with Beal, and I expect Porter to be just as good as Parsons. And how about G. Rice this summer? Boy can ball, huh. He's very likely to be a better NBA player than Wolters.

A collection of young talent does not make a great "team," PIF. I said it before and I'll say it again: the best NBA teams are a mix of experienced, proven vets and up-and-coming young talent. (Not unlike the team that the Zards are trying to put together.)

With your team and without the Okariza trade, the Zards are still a lowly lottery team and no amount of cap room is going to attract a top free agent (KD?) in their prime to a non-playoff team.
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Re: Grunfeld a Great GM. Proves Doubters Wrong 

Post#1487 » by TGW » Sun Jul 20, 2014 4:56 pm

DCZards wrote:
Leonard, Faried, Parsons, Crowder, Drummond, O'Quinn, Wolters, Wall. That's a lottery team, PIF. That Zards' team doesn't come close to making the playoffs last season


Um, que? A team led by Jeff Teague and a bunch of castoffs made the playoffs in the East last season (and almost beat the #1 seed!). You must be kidding.
Some random troll wrote:Not to sound negative, but this team is owned by an arrogant cheapskate, managed by a moron and coached by an idiot. Recipe for disaster.
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Re: Grunfeld a Great GM. Proves Doubters Wrong 

Post#1488 » by montestewart » Sun Jul 20, 2014 5:14 pm

TGW wrote:
DCZards wrote:
Leonard, Faried, Parsons, Crowder, Drummond, O'Quinn, Wolters, Wall. That's a lottery team, PIF. That Zards' team doesn't come close to making the playoffs last season


Um, que? A team led by Jeff Teague and a bunch of castoffs made the playoffs in the East last season (and almost beat the #1 seed!). You must be kidding.

Those players had a combined 46.1 Win Shares last year. Not to mention the cap space which (as has been pointed out REPEATEDLY) can be used to acquire players outside of free agency by absorbing contracts. The Wizards could add veterans to that team by taking decent players whose salaries other teams wanted to shed. Players like, oh, I don't know, Okafor, Ariza, or Gortat.

Lottery team. Too funny.
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Re: Grunfeld a Great GM. Proves Doubters Wrong 

Post#1489 » by DCZards » Sun Jul 20, 2014 6:04 pm

montestewart wrote:
TGW wrote:
DCZards wrote:
Leonard, Faried, Parsons, Crowder, Drummond, O'Quinn, Wolters, Wall. That's a lottery team, PIF. That Zards' team doesn't come close to making the playoffs last season


Um, que? A team led by Jeff Teague and a bunch of castoffs made the playoffs in the East last season (and almost beat the #1 seed!). You must be kidding.

Those players had a combined 46.1 Win Shares last year. Not to mention the cap space which (as has been pointed out REPEATEDLY) can be used to acquire players outside of free agency by absorbing contracts. The Wizards could add veterans to that team by taking decent players whose salaries other teams wanted to shed. Players like, oh, I don't know, Okafor, Ariza, or Gortat.

Lottery team. Too funny.


Win shares? Does it matter that one of these players was on a team with Howard and Harden and another one was a bench player on a team led by Nowitzki and Monte Ellis. Other than Leonard and Wall, tell me which one of those players was the most important--or even second most important--player on a team with a winning record.

These are good players who EG definitely missed on, but let's not pretend that we should be all broken up about not having guys like Wolters, Crowder and O'Quinn on the Zards roster.

And didn't I just read on wiretap that D. Howard believes the Rockets will be just fine without Parsons?
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Re: Grunfeld a Great GM. Proves Doubters Wrong 

Post#1490 » by Brenice » Sun Jul 20, 2014 6:10 pm

payitforward wrote:BS, pure and simple. You can tell what's possible by watching what other GMs do. And if in 11 years as a GM your team has posted a record in the bottom 10% of the league, you are gone. Period.

When I see a guy stand over his bowl of soup and p#ss in it, I don't need "evidence" that there was something better for him to do.

He's not mine to hire or fire. If he were, he'd have been gone a long time ago. Given he's still here, if the old dog learns new tricks, I'll be delighted. And, in fact, Ernie has made good moves this off-season. For those he gets props.

And because we give him props for his good moves, we also get to point out the many, many idiotic moves he's made: draft picks, FA signings, trades, etc. The win-loss record he's compiled reflects his work.

Edit -- ...and that's enough of that! I'm going to concentrate on what we do now and soon. That won't include contending for a title, but I've given up on that. And the Wizards should be fun to watch this year and next. After that, it'll be time for the next rebuild.


What is BS is that you that you want to give GM's too much credit and give Ernie too much blame. Talking about his misses, like nobody else misses. I bet you can't name 1 other champion other than Detroit that won it without a MVP favorite. That's why you need to give up hope in winning a championship. You tell me when Ernie had the chance and passed on a LeBron, Shaq, Duncan, Dirk level talent? Newsflash, we don't have that level of player on the roster and THAT ain't Ernie's fault. Those other GM's, they haven't won without one either. Nobody has gifted Washington anything like Boston was gifted KG by McHale.

What you need to do is be happy where the Wizards stand now and hope they get lucky like everybody else who doesn't have LeBron or Duncan. EVERYBODY ELSE.
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Re: Grunfeld a Great GM. Proves Doubters Wrong 

Post#1491 » by hands11 » Sun Jul 20, 2014 8:03 pm

DCZards wrote:
TGW wrote:
Yes, it's easy to blame the man in the grave for all of EG's bad moves, because he can't defend himself and because it's suits your narrative. There's nothing to argue because it's pointless to try and figure out which moves were "just Grunfeld" or "just Abe." We can only judge on what was done, and Ernie Grunfeld was part of all of it.

So to respond to you and Kanye--yes you can judge a GM simply by winning percentage because that's the only way you can judge a GM. If you want to judge Ernie based on how nice a guy he is, or how well-groomed his mustache is, then fine. But I assure you the other 29 front offices look at winning percentage to judge everyone on their staff.


First of all, I've never written a word regarding the Abe vs. Ted debate and who is to blame. That hasn't been my "narrative" or issue at all. You must be confusing me with someone else.

So if you're judging a GM strictly by winning percentage do you factor in the team that the GM inherited? Or is the new GM totally responsible for the success or failure of the team from day one? (That's the situation that Phil Jackson will face in NY, btw.)

Also, how do you account for those years when the new owner (Ted) tells the GM to tear it down (without regard to the W-L record) and rebuild?


Finally. After 5 years its becoming more clear.

Its so hard to prove this stuff unless things have enough time to play out and because Ted keep EG around, we have gotten to see it play out. That is rare.

Abe did great for the community. He was even a good owner 20 years ago. But this thing people call

The Curse of Les Boule

For some odd reason. I don't feel that anymore.

Odd

Owners lead. They set the front office order. They sign the max contracts. They say when the draft top picks. They set the tone. They set the time line. I have been saying this for over 5 years, well before Ted. I predicted they would go no where with Gil as the Max player. I welcomed the blow up and change of ownership because I wanted to see something real and longer term visioned. Something build with a solid foundation. I had seen enough of how Abe did things to know what he would do. Its why I tuned off from the Skins after seeing enough of Synder to know he didn't get it.

Since Ted has taken over. I understood his plan. He set the tone. He set the time line. He set the front office. And he signed Wall to max. I understand his vision. He laid it out. And I have seen it implemented.

In case anyone missed it. Welcome to your new Wizards Franchise. One that that should finish top 2 in the East this year with 50 plus wins and who will make it to the 2nd round again. And this time, hopefully make it to the ECF.

Year over year progress. And 2016 in our sites. This once proud franchise is finally getting restored.
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Re: Grunfeld a Great GM. Proves Doubters Wrong 

Post#1492 » by hands11 » Sun Jul 20, 2014 8:06 pm

milellie111 wrote:
TGW wrote:
milellie111 wrote:Not to sound negative, but this team is owned by an arrogant cheapskate, managed by a moron and coached by an idiot. Recipe for disaster. Not to mention our "elite" franchise savior point guard who we will most likely give a max deal to, cant shoot outside of 15 feet while other teams pgs are knocking down threes.


Glad to see you are infatuated with something I wrote years ago out of frustration when the team was horrible. But unlike a troll (like yourself), i know how to change my opinion and direction with the teams newfound success. Not continue to troll on a forum by lobbying for coaching and GM changes when the team is now one of the best in the East.


Not sure why you even bother responding to that poster. He is clearly trolling you/us.
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Re: Grunfeld a Great GM. Proves Doubters Wrong 

Post#1493 » by hands11 » Sun Jul 20, 2014 8:24 pm

payitforward wrote:
dckingsfan wrote:
Kanyewest wrote:True- EG has been mediocre. Just wouldn't say he's the worst :D

Agreed, probably just bottom 1/3rd

Oh, I think he's worse than that! But, why quibble? Even if that's all one could say:

how does a guy whose performance is in the bottom 1/3 keep his job for over a decade?


Probably because the owner of the team knows more then you do about what really happens behind closed doors.

And because we are likely ending up top 2 in the East this year. The rebuild since he has taken over is going well.

And because

2011 .303
2012 .354
2013 .537 2nd round playoffs
2014 .659 probably something like that and East Division Champs 1st or 2nd seed in the conference

With Wall, Beal and now Otto as the young core and Nene, Gortat, Blair, Hump and Paul Pierce and cap room for 2016 and our first round pick next year.

and 4 playoff appearance his first 5 years here with his hands tied behind his back by Abe/EFJ when they team had been to the playoffs only 1 time in the past 16 years.

I wasn't his fault Gil hosed everything and they rebooted and Abe signed injured Gil to super max.

EG and Whit are about to harvest the bounty. Its really hard to get your averages up statistically when you have accumulated a large chunk of losses on your record so that stat will always be easy pickings but those numbers will rise over time. They are a lagging indicator if you take them in total. I think the ones I posted are more relevant and its really about that. relevant numbers and context.
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Re: Grunfeld a Great GM. Proves Doubters Wrong 

Post#1494 » by hands11 » Sun Jul 20, 2014 8:26 pm

Brenice wrote:It's not that Ernie doesn't have responsibility, but when you are under orders, you take the best offer. What you want and what is available can be 2 different things. Unless you have evidence of a better offer, you are just assuming.

At this point, you look at ownership. Everyone knows there is a huge difference between the Redskins under Jack KentCook compared to Dan Snyder. The Wizards/Bullets under Abe Pollin stunk for 25 years before Ernie was hired. Ernie arrived and things started getting better DESPITE Pollin, not perfect, but better. Then Ted took over and Ernie and the Wizards are on the rise.


:rockon: :rockon: :rockon:
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Re: Grunfeld a Great GM. Proves Doubters Wrong 

Post#1495 » by payitforward » Sun Jul 20, 2014 8:27 pm

DCZards wrote:
payitforward wrote:
Now, let me ask you some similar questions. "Without Ernie Grunfeld, would we..."

...have Kawhi Leonard, Kenneth Faried and Chandler Parsons on our team? Those are three of the very best young players in the league. Of course, had we picked them we would certainly not have had a shot at Bradley Beal. But we would quite likely had Andre Drummond available to us.

...have a bench filled w/ outstanding young prospects like Jae Crowder, Kyle O'Quinn, Nate Wolters and Jordan Clarkson?

...have Tyler Ennis or Mitch McGary from the recent draft?

...have tons of cap room (not having made the Okariza trade) to add excellent players via trade and free agency -- and 5 of the best young stars in the league (Wall, Leonard, Faried, Parsons & Drummond), and lots of other gifted prospects as well, to attract them?

Etc. etc. etc.


Leonard, Faried, Parsons, Crowder, Drummond, O'Quinn, Wolters, Wall. That's a lottery team, PIF. That Zards' team doesn't come close to making the playoffs last season and giving the Washington NBA franchise the stature and visibility it currently enjoys, which has helped the Zards appeal to solid free agents at bargain prices this off season.

The only players on your wish list with significant upside, imo, are Leonard, Parsons, Drummond and Wall. And, while I love Drummond, I'm happy with Beal, and I expect Porter to be just as good as Parsons. And how about G. Rice this summer? Boy can ball, huh. He's very likely to be a better NBA player than Wolters.

A collection of young talent does not make a great "team," PIF. I said it before and I'll say it again: the best NBA teams are a mix of experienced, proven vets and up-and-coming young talent. (Not unlike the team that the Zards are trying to put together.)

With your team and without the Okariza trade, the Zards are still a lowly lottery team and no amount of cap room is going to attract a top free agent (KD?) in their prime to a non-playoff team.

Zards -- *of course* those players aren't enough and wouldn't have been all of such a team! And given that their total salary would have been what $20-25m (b4 maxing Wall), we would have had puh-lenty of room to add any veterans we needed. I mean... make the Okariza trade if you like, in that scenario.

You've heard me say that Ariza was our best player last year, right? Leonard was *much* better than Ariza. And don't you think we could have traded one of those other young guys for Gortat, whom Phoenix was eager to move?

But anyway, that's not really the point I was making. Milellie pointed to Ernie's fabulous moves (i.e. picking Wall #1 -- ??) and crowed about them. I pointed out that a) there was less there than met the eye in terms of fabulous GM-ing, and b) why don't you factor in the colossal series of horrendous moves in the same time period?

And, hey, I love Beal -- I wanted to draft him, no question. Did you? Also no question? Or did you maybe like someone else? But, suppose the ping pong balls had pushed another team past us and we'd missed him, we'd have done as well or better with Drummond. Lets not be total homers here. If we had Drummond instead of Beal right now, we'd barely notice that Beal guy on some other team, and we'd be ecstatic about Drummond.

For the rest it was Leonard, Faried and Parsons rather than Vesely, Singleton and Mack; Crowder rather than Satoransky; O'Quinn rather than nothing; Wolters rather than Rice (and yes Rice has played quite well in SL). You want to have a different take on Rice/Wolters, feel free. Surely, you are not questioning the rest of those comparisons!

You think that

Gortat/Drummond
Nene/Faried/O'Quinn
Leonard/Parsons
Webster/Crowder/Rice
Wall/Wolters

is lottery, but

Gortat/Seraphin
Nene/Booker/Vesely
Ariza/Singleton
Beal/Webster
Wall/Maynor

is deep into the playoffs? That's how we started last year (plus Harrington, Temple, blah blah). Come on man....
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Re: Grunfeld a Great GM. Proves Doubters Wrong 

Post#1496 » by hands11 » Sun Jul 20, 2014 8:39 pm

DCZards wrote:
montestewart wrote:
TGW wrote:
Um, que? A team led by Jeff Teague and a bunch of castoffs made the playoffs in the East last season (and almost beat the #1 seed!). You must be kidding.

Those players had a combined 46.1 Win Shares last year. Not to mention the cap space which (as has been pointed out REPEATEDLY) can be used to acquire players outside of free agency by absorbing contracts. The Wizards could add veterans to that team by taking decent players whose salaries other teams wanted to shed. Players like, oh, I don't know, Okafor, Ariza, or Gortat.

Lottery team. Too funny.


Win shares? Does it matter that one of these players was on a team with Howard and Harden and another one was a bench player on a team led by Nowitzki and Monte Ellis. Other than Leonard and Wall, tell me which one of those players was the most important--or even second most important--player on a team with a winning record.

These are good players who EG definitely missed on, but let's not pretend that we should be all broken up about not having guys like Wolters, Crowder and O'Quinn on the Zards roster.

And didn't I just read on wiretap that D. Howard believes the Rockets will be just fine without Parsons?


I would have liked Crowder. He was my 2nd round pick that year. I would still like Wolters over Glen Jr.

But what I like more then that, is I like the progress they are making and the cap room they will have in 2016

Basically. I am happy they have a team I can root for even if it is not pick for pick the team I would have drafted.

I wanted Gortat when he left ORL. They have him.
I wanted PP when he left Boston. They have him.
I wanted Beal. They have him.
I wanted Nick, McGee, GIl, gone. They hare gone.
I believed in Wall potential. Questioned if we could develop it. And we have. I couldn't be happier.
And I believe in Otto Porter

I like this team. And I'm looking forward to the season. I think I will buy my first set of season ticket shortly.
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Re: Grunfeld a Great GM. Proves Doubters Wrong 

Post#1497 » by DCZards » Sun Jul 20, 2014 8:50 pm

payitforward wrote:You think that

Gortat/Drummond
Nene/Faried/O'Quinn
Leonard/Parsons
Webster/Crowder/Rice
Wall/Wolters

is lottery, but

Gortat/Seraphin
Nene/Booker/Vesely
Ariza/Singleton
Beal/Webster
Wall/Maynor

is deep into the playoffs? That's how we started last year (plus Harrington, Temple, blah blah). Come on man....


pif, it's easy to have a perfect storm of a lineup (like your first one above) in hindsight, especially now that the evidence is in and we all know that Leonard (who I wanted the Zards to draft, btw) and Parsons are very good NBA players, and Seraphin and Vesley suck. So pat yourself on the back for your 20/20 hindsight vision.

But, as I assume you know, it's much harder to draft in real time like real GMs have to do--before these guys have played a minute of pro ball. Just ask those many GMs who passed on both Leonard and Parsons.

And, yes, I was one of this board' biggest advocates for drafting Beal. Although, I said at the time that Drummond might be the best player in the 2012 draft . Obviously, in hindsight, I was wrong about that. A certain Mr. Davis is the best player from that draft.
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Re: Grunfeld a Great GM. Proves Doubters Wrong 

Post#1498 » by hands11 » Sun Jul 20, 2014 9:09 pm

DCZards wrote:
payitforward wrote:You think that

Gortat/Drummond
Nene/Faried/O'Quinn
Leonard/Parsons
Webster/Crowder/Rice
Wall/Wolters

is lottery, but

Gortat/Seraphin
Nene/Booker/Vesely
Ariza/Singleton
Beal/Webster
Wall/Maynor

is deep into the playoffs? That's how we started last year (plus Harrington, Temple, blah blah). Come on man....


pif, it's easy to have a perfect storm of a lineup (like your first one above) in hindsight, especially now that the evidence is in and we all know that Leonard (who I wanted the Zards to draft, btw) and Parsons are very good NBA players, and Seraphin and Vesley suck. So pat yourself on the back for your 20/20 hindsight vision.

But, as I assume you know, it's much harder to draft in real time like real GMs have to do--before these guys have played a minute of pro ball. Just ask those many GMs who passed on both Leonard and Parsons.

And, yes, I was one of this board' biggest advocates for drafting Beal. Although, I said at the time that Drummond might be the best player in the 2012 draft . Obviously, in hindsight, I was wrong about that. A certain Mr. Davis is the best player from that draft.


Point being..

Just be happy you have a team of likable players that project to be a good team.

If you are really a Wizards/Bullets fan. You welcome this.

It doesn't have to be how you wanted to get here. But we are here. Enjoy it.

And yes. Like it or not. Ted and EG are the ones that brought it to you. That and some luck.
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Re: Grunfeld a Great GM. Proves Doubters Wrong 

Post#1499 » by montestewart » Sun Jul 20, 2014 9:18 pm

DCZards wrote:
montestewart wrote:
DCZards wrote:
Leonard, Faried, Parsons, Crowder, Drummond, O'Quinn, Wolters, Wall. That's a lottery team, PIF. That Zards' team doesn't come close to making the playoffs last season

Those players had a combined 46.1 Win Shares last year. Not to mention the cap space which (as has been pointed out REPEATEDLY) can be used to acquire players outside of free agency by absorbing contracts. The Wizards could add veterans to that team by taking decent players whose salaries other teams wanted to shed. Players like, oh, I don't know, Okafor, Ariza, or Gortat.

Lottery team. Too funny.


Win shares? Does it matter that one of these players was on a team with Howard and Harden and another one was a bench player on a team led by Nowitzki and Monte Ellis. Other than Leonard and Wall, tell me which one of those players was the most important--or even second most important--player on a team with a winning record.

These are good players who EG definitely missed on, but let's not pretend that we should be all broken up about not having guys like Wolters, Crowder and O'Quinn on the Zards roster.

And didn't I just read on wiretap that D. Howard believes the Rockets will be just fine without Parsons?

Nothing you say above in any way reinforces your assertion that it is a lottery team, and since your original assertion, I reminded of the team's ability to add veterans using cap space, so really I have no idea where you're going.

Of course Howard's going to say that. What would you expect, "Damn, I signed a long term contract with this crap team!"? Not to mention Chandler's lost 7.6 WS might be offset by Ariza, who had 8 WS last season.

Regarding the relatively cheap labor provided by Wolters, Crowder and O'Quinn, that's 6 total win shares provided (to the teams that drafted them, three very different teams) by three second rounders who get paid less than $1 million apiece. If you don't see the point there, well…

As for "tell me which one of those players was the most important--or even second most important--player on a team with a winning record," what? How many of those do you need to get into the playoffs? Out of Wall, Beal, Ariza, Gorta, which two were not the 1st or 2nd most important player on the team? Should the contributions of those two be disregarded?

I guess I could imagine a GM having those eight players and still somehow put together a coaching staff and roster that didn't make the playoffs in the East this year. If I think really hard.
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Re: Grunfeld a Great GM. Proves Doubters Wrong 

Post#1500 » by montestewart » Sun Jul 20, 2014 9:20 pm

hands11 wrote:Just be happy you have a team of likable players that project to be a good team.

I'll go with that. I'm really looking forward to this season.

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