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Is Wall Top 5 PG?

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Re: Is Wall Top 5 PG? 

Post#481 » by Kanyewest » Tue Jan 20, 2015 9:26 pm

Nivek wrote:
That was also the year Larry Brown won Coach of the Year, Mutombo won Defensive Player of the Year, and McKie won 6th man of the year. Probably the most decorated no-talent team in league history.


That team had a lot of good role players. Eric Snow, Raja Bell, and Kevin Ollie (future NCAA championship coach). That was a tough defensive bunch. Met their match against the Lakers though (Robert Horry, Derek Fisher, Rick Fox, Tyronn Lue).
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Re: Is Wall Top 5 PG? 

Post#482 » by Kanyewest » Tue Jan 20, 2015 9:29 pm

tontoz wrote:Iverson averaged almost 4 3 pointers per game even though he shot them at 31.3% for his career. GOAT :bowdown:


Jordan only shot 32.7% from 3 so he wasn't that far behind! :)

EDIT: Wow Kobe is only a 33.4% shooter from 3!
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Re: Is Wall Top 5 PG? 

Post#483 » by deneem4 » Tue Jan 20, 2015 10:19 pm

Nivek wrote:
deneem4 wrote:
Iverson is 6ft westbrook without durant BUT BETTER...and no mattee how u feel about westbrook stats attitude demeanor, the man is elite.
when people discuss westbrook stats later on they will say hes inefficient and turnover prone....true to a degree..but the stats dont show the heart n love he played with...


Westbrook has two seasons so far that rate better than Iverson's best (at least in terms of contributing to winning games), and he's working on a third. He does miss shots and commit a lot turnovers, but Westbrook rebounds well, assists well, and is an extremely effective defender.

Out of curiosity, I ran my statistical doppelganger machine on Iverson. For his MVP season, 6 of the top 10 "similars" were himself. Pretty unique player. The closest non-Iverson comps were: Stackhouse, Kobe twice (2006-07 and 2002-03) and Arenas.

The most similar (though not very) player from last season was Carmelo Anthony.

In my numbers, Iverson's best season was 2005-06. Once again, 6 of his top 10 "similars" where himself. I haven't done an extensive study, but of the players I've looked at through this "doppelganger machine" I haven't found a guy as unique as Iverson. The most similar non-Iverson comps for that 2005-06 season:

- Kobe 2006-07
- Wade 2009-10
- Kobe 2008-09
- Stackhouse 2000-01

None of those guys are very close, though. Iverson was really unique. Once again, the closest player from 2013-14 was Carmelo.

stats will never show how an inefficient 6ft scorer won mvp n carried his team to the finals...


Well, actually they do. Or, more correctly stated, they show how the Sixers got there. Iverson was a BIG contributor on offense. His personal efficiency was better than average that season (106 vs. league average of 103), and better than his team's efficiency that season (Philly scored 103.6 points per 100 possessions). Philly's strength that season was really its outstanding defense (5th best in the regular season -- less than a point per 100 possessions behind the league leading teams that season).

That was also the year Larry Brown won Coach of the Year, Mutombo won Defensive Player of the Year, and McKie won 6th man of the year. Probably the most decorated no-talent team in league history.


be real if okc had a prime iverson instead o westbrook they'll have multiple titles...westbrook benefits from playing next to the most efficient player arguably the 2nd best player in the league...not to mention serge who has been a top dpoty canidate for years

iverson was a better passer than westbrook...fact...westbrook contributions is bet tree r because hes a 2nd option, an extremely good 2nd option but he's a 2nd option period...
dont matter what u do...u cant say say iverson isnt a top 10 sg in league history, I never said he was the best never even said he was top 5 to save from debate...but to make any kind of argument saying he isnt top 10 is ridiculous...not to mention he played in a conference with some of the best sg in league history
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Re: Is Wall Top 5 PG? 

Post#484 » by tontoz » Tue Jan 20, 2015 10:36 pm

Kanyewest wrote:
tontoz wrote:Iverson averaged almost 4 3 pointers per game even though he shot them at 31.3% for his career. GOAT :bowdown:


Jordan only shot 32.7% from 3 so he wasn't that far behind! :)

EDIT: Wow Kobe is only a 33.4% shooter from 3!



Jordan only took 1.7 3s per game for his career. Iverson took 3.7, Kobe 4.0.

For most of his career the 3 was a last resort for Jordan. Whenever he attempted over 2 per game he shot at least 35%.
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Re: Is Wall Top 5 PG? 

Post#485 » by Kanyewest » Tue Jan 20, 2015 10:44 pm

tontoz wrote:
Kanyewest wrote:
tontoz wrote:Iverson averaged almost 4 3 pointers per game even though he shot them at 31.3% for his career. GOAT :bowdown:


Jordan only shot 32.7% from 3 so he wasn't that far behind! :)

EDIT: Wow Kobe is only a 33.4% shooter from 3!



Jordan only took 1.7 3s per game for his career. Iverson took 3.7, Kobe 4.0.

For most of his career the 3 was a last resort for Jordan. Whenever he attempted over 2 per game he shot at least 35%.


It was a joke... should have had the green font for the Jordan one.
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Re: Is Wall Top 5 PG? 

Post#486 » by Illmatic12 » Tue Jan 20, 2015 10:52 pm

Zach Lowe did a great segment on Wall's elite passing ability in Grantland's basketball hour:


http://streamable.com/94e

No question, people who know and watch basketball recognize that Wall is an elite point guard in this league
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Re: Is Wall Top 5 PG? 

Post#487 » by Bigwig » Fri Jan 23, 2015 9:25 pm

payitforward wrote:
Bigwig wrote:
payitforward wrote:Players are as good as their numbers. Fans, however, always think their good players are *better than* their numbers -- fans of every team. It's natural.

It's also easy -- Jangles watches John Wall more than he watches Mike Conley. So he can explain away turnovers as someone else's fault, for example. Conley's TOs are just numbers, so they can't be explained away.

The real takeaway from Nivek's analysis is that John Wall, 24 and entering his prime, is one of the top 10 (not 5) point guards in the game. That's quite good, and since he has been an improving player pretty consistently over the last 3 years he may wind up one of the top 5 for some stretch of years.


I agree with your main point, that fans tend to be biased towards the players they watch regularly and root for. But I don't see why Nivek's method for aggregating the various statistics would be more valid for measuring which player is better (whatever that means in the context of a team sport) than some other method. In the end, it's still an opinion.

No, it's not just "an opinion." I'm not arguing for Kev's PPA methodology, because it isn't published, so I don't know how it's being used, but in principle you can certainly go a long way to determine whether particular methods measure more/less accurately which players are better than others.

The place to start is agglomerate all a particular method's results (taking PT into account) for all the players on every team. Then list from highest to lowest result. If you don't get a very strong correlation with a list of those teams from best to worst win-loss record, you can disregard that method.

To take an example, the correlation for PER is 80+% (I don't remember exactly -- sorry), whereas the correlation for WP48 is 94%, and Kevin claims his method produces about the same high correlation.

Once you have that team aggregate, the question arises whether the method being used allocates correctly among players. There are a lot of ways to check for that as well. It's too much stuff to write about it here. But the key point is that, no, this is not a matter of one person's "opinion" vs. another person's different "opinion."


The question is subjective, so of course your answer amounts to an opinion. And I would guess that a lot of people think they have good reasons for their opinions.

The procedure you outlined sounds reasonable enough, but it doesn't really capture my own notion of "better" very well. You mentioned one important potential flaw in your last paragraph. But I'll argue on your turf for a moment: do you think there could be a different aggregating stat that weighs Wall's strengths in defense and assists more heavily, and still correlates highly with win-loss record?

Also, wouldn't the definition of correlation affect the answer? For example, in a four-team league, suppose Team A has the best record, Team B next, Team C next, with Team D last. Suppose my aggregating stat predicts a D, B, C, A ordering, and yours predicts a B, A, D, C ordering. Does one stat clearly correlate better than the other?
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Re: Is Wall Top 5 PG? 

Post#488 » by hands11 » Sat Jan 24, 2015 10:59 am

Career TS of .489 in the playoff with average of 21 attempts with DRtg average of 109 with 105 as his best and multiple years a 112
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Re: Is Wall Top 5 PG? 

Post#489 » by Bigwig » Fri Sep 4, 2015 2:48 pm

SI projects Wall as the 4th best point guard in 2016:



I guess that goes hand in hand with valuing his defense highly in 2015:

keynote wrote:I didn't see this posted elsewhere, but here's some nice national media love for Wall's defense, courtesy of SI:

http://www.si.com/nba/2015/01/15/fundamentals-john-wall-moves-forward
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Re: Is Wall Top 5 PG? 

Post#490 » by nate33 » Fri Sep 4, 2015 3:21 pm

Bigwig wrote:SI projects Wall as the 4th best point guard in 2016:



I guess that goes hand in hand with valuing his defense highly in 2015:

keynote wrote:I didn't see this posted elsewhere, but here's some nice national media love for Wall's defense, courtesy of SI:

http://www.si.com/nba/2015/01/15/fundamentals-john-wall-moves-forward

That's a real good list. Interesting that they have Wall a full 10 spots higher than the 5th ranked PG (Kyrie Irving at #23).
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Re: Is Wall Top 5 PG? 

Post#491 » by Hidden Eye » Fri Sep 4, 2015 3:45 pm

Only two guards I consider better and not by much than Wall is Curry and Brickbrook. Paul doesn't have any advantages over Wall anymore he used to though. Time is catching up to him.
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Re: Is Wall Top 5 PG? 

Post#492 » by nate33 » Fri Sep 4, 2015 3:49 pm

Hidden Eye wrote:Only two guards I consider better and not by much than Wall is Curry and Brickbrook. Paul doesn't have any advantages over Wall anymore he used to though. Time is catching up to him.

Nah. Paul is definitely better. His ORtg is 126 for God's sake. The guy is a highly efficient shooter and he never turns the ball over. And he does it all while having the same team spacing issues that Wall has to deal with.
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Re: Is Wall Top 5 PG? 

Post#493 » by Kanyewest » Fri Sep 4, 2015 4:28 pm

nate33 wrote:
Hidden Eye wrote:Only two guards I consider better and not by much than Wall is Curry and Brickbrook. Paul doesn't have any advantages over Wall anymore he used to though. Time is catching up to him.

Nah. Paul is definitely better. His ORtg is 126 for God's sake. The guy is a highly efficient shooter and he never turns the ball over. And he does it all while having the same team spacing issues that Wall has to deal with.


Paul is also a much better jump shooter and has games where he is deadly from 3. Wall has not proved to be a consistent scorer from the perimeter so far in the NBA postseason.
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Re: Is Wall Top 5 PG? 

Post#494 » by payitforward » Mon Sep 7, 2015 2:18 am

John Wall is a very good player. But, comparing him to Chris Paul is insulting to Paul who is one of the half dozen best players in the league -- probably the best NBA player pound for pound.
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Re: Is Wall Top 5 PG? 

Post#495 » by TheBabyMaker » Mon Sep 7, 2015 3:01 am

payitforward wrote:John Wall is a very good player. But, comparing him to Chris Paul is insulting to Paul who is one of the half dozen best players in the league -- probably the best NBA player pound for pound.


Probably one of the best pound for pound (Paul) never winning anything even with elite talent around him. He has Wall on shooting and handles but his defense is garbage even with a high steal rate (See Arenas, guy can't guard a chair man up). If Wall had high flyers on his team like Blake, D.J. and Iggy he would average 13-14 assist a game. I don't think its (THAT) insulting Paul has won nothing.
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Re: RE: Re: Is Wall Top 5 PG? 

Post#496 » by Kanyewest » Mon Sep 7, 2015 3:16 pm

TheBabyMaker wrote:
payitforward wrote:John Wall is a very good player. But, comparing him to Chris Paul is insulting to Paul who is one of the half dozen best players in the league -- probably the best NBA player pound for pound.


Probably one of the best pound for pound (Paul) never winning anything even with elite talent around him. He has Wall on shooting and handles but his defense is garbage even with a high steal rate (See Arenas, guy can't guard a chair man up). If Wall had high flyers on his team like Blake, D.J. and Iggy he would average 13-14 assist a game. I don't think its (THAT) insulting Paul has won nothing.


Considering that LeBron hasn't won anything without elite talent around him, I don't consider it that much of an insult.

I'm not sure if Wall gets those assist numbers because he can't shoot as well as Paul. Wall hasn't shown he can play off the ball like Paul, which gives Griffin the ability to run the offense and become a triple double machine.

Here's hoping Wall can find a more consistent jumper and handle so he can move up the ranks.
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Re: Is Wall Top 5 PG? 

Post#497 » by Sluggerface » Mon Sep 7, 2015 3:32 pm

TheBabyMaker wrote:
payitforward wrote:John Wall is a very good player. But, comparing him to Chris Paul is insulting to Paul who is one of the half dozen best players in the league -- probably the best NBA player pound for pound.


Probably one of the best pound for pound (Paul) never winning anything even with elite talent around him. He has Wall on shooting and handles but his defense is garbage even with a high steal rate (See Arenas, guy can't guard a chair man up). If Wall had high flyers on his team like Blake, D.J. and Iggy he would average 13-14 assist a game. I don't think its (THAT) insulting Paul has won nothing.


Paul isn't even remotely a garbage defender. He's been a perennial All-Defender for the past seven years, coming in 1st five out of seven times. Comparing him to Arenas is a flat-out insult.
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Re: Is Wall Top 5 PG? 

Post#498 » by ThunderFan123 » Mon Sep 7, 2015 4:05 pm

Westbrook, Curry, Paul, Lilliard possibly are all better than Wall


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Re: Is Wall Top 5 PG? 

Post#499 » by nuposse04 » Mon Sep 7, 2015 4:43 pm

ThunderFan123 wrote:Westbrook, Curry, Paul, Lilliard possibly are all better than Wall


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The first 3 I'd agree with, especially Paul and Curry for their offensive prowess. No way would I take Lillard over Wall. Not to say Lillard is bad.. but he is a different type of PG, and isn't nearly the defender as Wall.
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Re: Is Wall Top 5 PG? 

Post#500 » by Hidden Eye » Mon Sep 7, 2015 6:06 pm

nate33 wrote:
Hidden Eye wrote:Only two guards I consider better and not by much than Wall is Curry and Brickbrook. Paul doesn't have any advantages over Wall anymore he used to though. Time is catching up to him.

Nah. Paul is definitely better. His ORtg is 126 for God's sake. The guy is a highly efficient shooter and he never turns the ball over. And he does it all while having the same team spacing issues that Wall has to deal with.


Pauls Offense doesn't put him over Walls Defense which is Elite. As Far as this upcoming season I wouldn't even put any of them over Wall because Wall improved his jump shot over this season.

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