Report: Humphries S&T to Wizards

[NbdyBeatsTheWiz]

What if beal becomes a 26/4/4 guy and and he has to get a max
and porter becomes a 20/7/3 defensive juggernaut

what if our young players live up to their potential before durant get here???
Then what?

We polish our ring and tell him if he wants one he can take the MLE.

[deneem4]

What if beal becomes a 26/4/4 guy and and he has to get a max
and porter becomes a 20/7/3 defensive juggernaut

what if our young players live up to their potential before durant get here???
Then what?

Then the Wizards don't really need Durant.

No such thing as not needing durant

[TGW]

Zards....you use assets to acquire good players. If the team had any coveted players outside of wall and Beal, Kevin Love could potentially be on this team. Because so many assets were wasted, we're stuck signing third and 4th tier big men. You can glaze over that fact all you want, but if the man picking the players were better at it, there would *surprise* be better players on the team. What a concept!

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[dangermouse]

What if beal becomes a 26/4/4 guy and and he has to get a max
and porter becomes a 20/7/3 defensive juggernaut

what if our young players live up to their potential before durant get here???
Then what?

Then the Wizards don't really need Durant.

No such thing as not needing durant

Uhhhh, there is if Wall, Beal AND Porter become superstars/all-stars. If we become a contender we don't need him. That would make it a lateral move.

I want Porter to be good though. The better Porter is, the more value we have to give OKC in a trade. They might even trade him earlier to us if they realise he is likely to join us as a FA, just to get Porter + parts instead of what we would offer in a s&t.

[DCZards]

Zards....you use assets to acquire good players. If the team had any coveted players outside of wall and Beal, Kevin Love could potentially be on this team. Because so many assets were wasted, we're stuck signing third and 4th tier big men. You can glaze over that fact all you want, but if the man picking the players were better at it, there would *surprise* be better players on the team. What a concept!

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News flash, TGW:Those wasted assets are gone and never coming back. So let's talk about building a contender based on what the Zards currently have and not what we wished they had.

[hands11]

PIFF

You did it again.

You inaccurately represented my position and then say you disagreed with it.

It being a fluid process is exactly one of the points I have been making.

[hands11]

Zards....you use assets to acquire good players. If the team had any coveted players outside of wall and Beal, Kevin Love could potentially be on this team. Because so many assets were wasted, we're stuck signing third and 4th tier big men. You can glaze over that fact all you want, but if the man picking the players were better at it, there would *surprise* be better players on the team. What a concept!

Sent from my SPH-L710 using RealGM Forums mobile app

News flash, TGW:Those wasted assets are gone and never coming back. So let's talk about building a contender based on what the Zards currently have and not what we wished they had.

You mean wasted assets like..

Worst contract in the league turned in Lewis who was actually the first vet added to try to stabilize the locker room. That was the worst for the 2nd worst but the 2nd worst was for more per year, but less years. It moved GIl off the team so Wall could be the franchise player without the old franchise players around messing things up. And it allowed them to cash in on that expiring asset earlier. And Lewis turned in Trevor A and Okafor. TA is now lamented that he is gone he turned out so well. And Okafor was core to with TA in helping redefine the team as a defense first focused team. And Okafor and a mid first turned into Gortat who is now the starting center for the next 4 years.

And all of those player helped develop Wall as a NBA professional. There was a time early on that many of us worried how Wall would develop. Would he realize and develop his potential. He was a hero ball player with one speed, no shoot and not enough around him to help him develop. Well they adding players like TA/Okafor Gortat, Webster and Nene had big influence in how Wall is turning out. And Beal as well. And now Otto got that education last year.

So they took the worst contract in the league on a player that was suspended by the league indefinitely for bring guns into the locker room and turned that into Lewis, TA/Okafor, then added a mid first and turned Okafor into Gortat. They may have wasted some picks, mostly the #6 used on Ves since all they got for that was Miller for two years, but that also turned a pigs ear into a silk purse.

You can't just isolate individual moves/picks that didn't work out and ignore the other stuff. At the end of the day, you have to take a step back and look at what they had 4 years ago and look at what they have now and evaluate that. Regardless of if you liked all the draft picks or every FA pick up, they have transformed the team. They do have a young core of players in Wall, Beal and Otto. They do have good supporting vets on good contracts. And they do have caps space to go after one of the few transformative players available in the league in 2016.

They may have even drafted one or two of them in Wall and Beal and now we will have the cap space to go after a third in 2016.

That pretty much exactly what most people here have wanted as a end result. And they did it in 4 years. From the worst of worst situations to what we see now. Time to stop crying over spilled milk of things that didn't work out well and look at the things that did and that project to work out moving forward.

[Kanyewest]

Zards....you use assets to acquire good players. If the team had any coveted players outside of wall and Beal, Kevin Love could potentially be on this team. Because so many assets were wasted, we're stuck signing third and 4th tier big men. You can glaze over that fact all you want, but if the man picking the players were better at it, there would *surprise* be better players on the team. What a concept!

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I guess. If you think about it though, Minnesota has done a worse job so far with their opportunities.

- They passed on Stephen Curry (twice!)
- The best point guard they took in the 2009 draft was Ty Lawson who they ended up trading
- They passed on DeMarcus Cousins and took Wesley Johnson
- They whiffed on Derrick Williams; for all intensive purposes it was as bad as the Wizards taking Jan Vesely- and if you say that he's more talented then Minnesota did a horrible job in developing Williams

Even Golden State could have done a better job which only have 2 coveted assets in Curry and Klay Thompson

- They drafted Harrison Barnes over Andre Drummond
- They traded a lot of assets in a sign and trade for Iguodala which has hamstrung them

The only reason Cleveland has the assets is because they have gotten the #1 pick so many times that they right now have 4 players on their roster who are #1 picks. They have their own screw ups

- Tristan Thompson is OK but not as good as the Leonard/Faried
- Waiters over Lillard/Drummond
- Bennett looks better but they could have had Oladipo or Noel (OR EVEN OTTO PORTER )

Truth is it is easy to play retrospective GM when all the cards are in. Pretty much all the GMs who are rebuilding make errors; even OKC who took Jeff Green over Noah. Or you could argue that they should have taken Love over Westbrook in the first place.

[Ruzious]

Then the Wizards don't really need Durant.

No such thing as not needing durant

Uhhhh, there is if Wall, Beal AND Porter become superstars/all-stars. If we become a contender we don't need him. That would make it a lateral move.

I want Porter to be good though. The better Porter is, the more value we have to give OKC in a trade. They might even trade him earlier to us if they realise he is likely to join us as a FA, just to get Porter + parts instead of what we would offer in a s&t.

The chances of Porter or Beal ever reaching the rarified air of Durant are about as good as us winning the lottery. Deneem got this one right. If you can get Durant, you do it, and then figure out what to do with Porter.

[gambitx777]

What if beal becomes a 26/4/4 guy and and he has to get a max
and porter becomes a 20/7/3 defensive juggernaut

what if our young players live up to their potential before durant get here???
Then what?

Well if that's the case and wall holds or gets better and Gortat holds firm, plus the other guys we brought in and the guys who will b brought in do their jobs, we win a wring this year or next. We would have a big 3 and a capable bunch of bigs with descent shooting and depth else where. If all that happens, and we keep improving the bench as older players fall off, we are contending for titles. So, do we mess with a working formula to add Durant ? it's a legit point to bring up

[bgroban]

What if beal becomes a 26/4/4 guy and and he has to get a max
and porter becomes a 20/7/3 defensive juggernaut

what if our young players live up to their potential before durant get here???
Then what?

Well if that's the case and wall holds or gets better and Gortat holds firm, plus the other guys we brought in and the guys who will b brought in do their jobs, we win a wring this year or next. We would have a big 3 and a capable bunch of bigs with descent shooting and depth else where. If all that happens, and we keep improving the bench as older players fall off, we are contending for titles. So, do we mess with a working formula to add Durant ? it's a legit point to bring up

You are questioning whether to bring in Durant?

[tontoz]

Durant is a light year better than anyone we have. If we have the chance to bring him in it is a complete no brainer.

[Chocolate City Jordanaire]

Zards....you use assets to acquire good players. If the team had any coveted players outside of wall and Beal, Kevin Love could potentially be on this team. Because so many assets were wasted, we're stuck signing third and 4th tier big men. You can glaze over that fact all you want, but if the man picking the players were better at it, there would *surprise* be better players on the team. What a concept!

Sent from my SPH-L710 using RealGM Forums mobile app

News flash, TGW:Those wasted assets are gone and never coming back. So let's talk about building a contender based on what the Zards currently have and not what we wished they had.

You mean wasted assets like..

Worst contract in the league turned in Lewis who was actually the first vet added to try to stabilize the locker room. That was the worst for the 2nd worst but the 2nd worst was for more per year, but less years. It moved GIl off the team so Wall could be the franchise player without the old franchise players around messing things up. And it allowed them to cash in on that expiring asset earlier. And Lewis turned in Trevor A and Okafor. TA is now lamented that he is gone he turned out so well. And Okafor was core to with TA in helping redefine the team as a defense first focused team. And Okafor and a mid first turned into Gortat who is now the starting center for the next 4 years.

And all of those player helped develop Wall as a NBA professional. There was a time early on that many of us worried how Wall would develop. Would he realize and develop his potential. He was a hero ball player with one speed, no shoot and not enough around him to help him develop. Well they adding players like TA/Okafor Gortat, Webster and Nene had big influence in how Wall is turning out. And Beal as well. And now Otto got that education last year.

So they took the worst contract in the league on a player that was suspended by the league indefinitely for bring guns into the locker room and turned that into Lewis, TA/Okafor, then added a mid first and turned Okafor into Gortat. They may have wasted some picks, mostly the #6 used on Ves since all they got for that was Miller for two years, but that also turned a pigs ear into a silk purse.

You can't just isolate individual moves/picks that didn't work out and ignore the other stuff. At the end of the day, you have to take a step back and look at what they had 4 years ago and look at what they have now and evaluate that. Regardless of if you liked all the draft picks or every FA pick up, they have transformed the team. They do have a young core of players in Wall, Beal and Otto. They do have good supporting vets on good contracts. And they do have caps space to go after one of the few transformative players available in the league in 2016.

They may have even drafted one or two of them in Wall and Beal and now we will have the cap space to go after a third in 2016.

That pretty much exactly what most people here have wanted as a end result. And they did it in 4 years. From the worst of worst situations to what we see now. Time to stop crying over spilled milk of things that didn't work out well and look at the things that did and that project to work out moving forward.

The way I see it all the misses and mistakes cost the Wizards time. Had they drafted and developed players well they would have been better much sooner. Other teams like Houston and Golden State bottomed out and reloaded in a hurry.

However, I do think you have the right perspective, hands. The end result justifies the means. The Wizards have come a long way the past 4 seasons. (I would say past 3 seasons, FWIW).

I will put the past completely behind if this team succeeds in getting back to the playoffs.

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[payitforward]

And to think, how many people didn't want the Gortat trade that saved last season and resulted in playing in the playoffs. Wall and Beal got playoff experience and respect resulting in players wanting to play here. Is Durant soon to be a Wizard? Damn the lottery.

Thats just one move.

More than half the board missed the entire rebuild and questioned almost every move.

But now they magically like the end result and some how frame it as, all the sudden they have a plan and are starting to make good moves. This is in spite of the owner actually detailing the rebuild plan and providing updates in long interviews.

Thats kind of magical thinking don't you think ?

Sorry, Hands -- none of the above is close to the truth. Point by point.

Lets just start with the "questioning almost every move" --

1. the draft. We've had 15 draft picks to work with since 2010. Wall came by luck, or was it part of a "plan" to get lucky w/ ping pong balls? Beal was an excellent pick -- and most people here wanted him (to my recollection -- I certainly did!). I wasn't around in 2010 -- did most people oppose the picks of Seraphin and Booker? I liked both picks. We got lucky again w/ the ping pong balls and picked Porter. There were a variety of opinions about who to pick, but I think most here wanted Porter; I was fine w/ the pick. I think you actually wanted to trade down, didn't you? I might be misremembering. Some people wanted Noel; they might still turn out to have been right.

That's it for good picks out of the 15. Or are you saying you liked some other picks -- and if so, which?

As to trades, which ones are you saying you have liked? In particular, please. The Okariza trade obviously didn't succeed in terms of building a new Wizards squad -- how could it have? They aren't Wizards! The Gortat trade got us a good player -- and I seem to have to say over and over again that a good player and a good trade for that player are *not* the same thing. I wanted Gortat when he went to Phoenix instead. But we didn't get him then. We got him when he cost us $14m and a mid-round 1 pick in the deepest draft in a decade. The trade for Miller most of us liked just fine (of course maybe you want to think about why we had to make that trade!).

How about FA signings? Anyone here object to Gooden? Pierce? Humphries? Blair? And, are you really suggesting that signing Pierce for 2 years at 37 is part of a planned rebuild? Now that really is "magical thinking."

So... what is it that, for example, I missed? I'm sure I'm among your "most people" bunching.

No flame intended here, Hands, just asking for the basis in actual fact of your extensive self-congratulation. I could also point to many posts by you questioning the Gortat trade, calling for Ernie to go and now(!), condemning Wittman, etc.

If you have a criticism to make, why don't you find something particular and empirical to point to? I could just challenge you and say -- why don't you find one place where, for example, I've been wrong about a player acquisition, draft pick, trade, or anything at all. I don't doubt there are some. Just name me one, please.

[payitforward]

I couldn't disagree more with the picture you draw, Hands. In fact, this whole vision you, and maybe some others too, seem to have is, I think, wrong -- and demonstrably wrong. You have the idea that a rebuild is like painting a picture. You have to have an overall framework first, then you have to have, as it were, just the right color here and another right color there, and some kind of balance, and... wherever the metaphor goes.

If the world were static, and everything around you stayed the same, I can see how it would be possible to imagine this as the right way to view the process of building a team. But, of course, the world around doesn't stay the same, and things are the exact opposite of static.

In the last 13 months, for example, Philadelphia has acquired more and better assets via the draft than Ernie has managed in the last decade. Embiid, Noel, MC-W, Saric, a likely high R1 pick in 2017 (wch they can trade well before then if they want) -- not to mention McDaniels, Mcrae and Micic (likely that 1 or more of those guys will become quite good players!). Oh, and Pierre Jackson. Yet, they'll have a very high pick next year as well, and their total salary committed next year? About $30m. Talk about having cap room!

Don't get me wrong -- I'm delighted with the moves Ernie has made this Summer! More fun than staring slack-jawed at a press release about signing Eric Maynor, that's for sure! Or Harrington. But what the moves show is that 4 plus years and 5 drafts worth of rebuilding has netted us a grand total of 4 assets we think are worth counting on going forward.

In fact, we're *not* focused on building a team at all right now. We're focused on getting through the next 2 years. By then John Wall will be entering the 2d half of his career, Beal will be a 5 year veteran, etc. While the entire squad outside of those 4 guys (Gortat, Beal, Wall, Porter) is in starting over mode (assuming we haven't suddenly become brilliant late R1 drafters all of a sudden).

I'll enjoy watching Wizards basketball this year and next. I'm a Wizards fan. But I've given up entirely on the notion that we'll ever try to build a title contender. And if the answer is "Kevin Durant is coming here; it's written in the stars -- after all we just hired his high school coach!" that's just more confirmation. Holding your breath for the one thing that makes a mess look a chef thought it up isn't building a team -- don't you think Durant might like playing with Embiid, Noel, etc.?

In other words, no, there is no plan. None whatever -- at least none that any rational person wouldn't find laughable. But, we did recover well from losing Ariza, and we did bring on 2 productive veterans. We may be one of the oldest teams in the league now, but at least some of those old guys are good players.

PIF, here's where I think you're wrong about building a contender. You don't do it by simply collecting a bunch of youngsters or assets. You do it by having the right mix of young talent and vets and the subsequent chemistry that flows from that. I'm not impressed at all by the collection of Philly players you named. What I see in Philly are two quality--potentially great--young big men (both of whom have already had serious injuries, btw) and a bunch of other young guys, only one of whom has proven he can play (MCW) and he's pretty one dimensional offensively since he can't shoot.

Philly will likely need to bring in some vets or glue guys (a la David West in Indy) to show their youngsters how to play the right way and to step up at crunch time if necessary. Kinda like what West does in Indy or the contribution that Boris Diaw made to help S.A. get over the hump against Miami.

That Philly team you're so enamored with is much, much further from contending than the Zards. And, again, we don't know if any of the guys or assets that Philly has collected can play. But we do know that Wall, Beal and Gortat are all-stars or borderline all-stars, that Nene, when healthy, is a major contributor, and that vets like Humphries, Webster, Gooden and Blair are almost certain to be solid role players.

We also now have this guy Paul Pierce who has won a championship and has been known to put a team on his shoulders from time to time. Heck, I can see PP being rejuvenated playing with Wall and Beal and only having to play 20-25 minutes a game for his team to be successful. Pierce is still one of the best one-on-one offensive players in the game, who will likely be taking youngsters (like those in Philly) to school. Pierce also has a serious "clutch" gene.

And I'm excited to see what two the youngins'--Porter and Rice--are capable of doing. I think both have real potential.

Yes, the current Zards team is missing some key pieces, such as a young front court player to develop and someone to replace the aging Andre Miller. But winning and making noise in the playoffs is how you attract that kind of talent. (Maybe even a KD.) Right now, I'm liking the mix of youth and old heads that has emerged from the moves made by the Zards since last year this time.

At some point, you have to stop worrying about collecting "assets"--or weighing who has the most "assets"--and put together a group of men who can actually win on the court. That's where the Zards are in 2014...and Philly has a long ways to go to get there.

Actually win *what* on the court? Last year, in a historically weak Eastern Conference we won 44 games. We got past a Bulls team whose 2 best players were injured or had just been traded, and we were brushed aside by a dysfunctional team that then got blown out by a team that in turn got blown out in the championship series! What was our record vs. the West?

I'm delighted with our current moves -- largely because I've given up on ever being a team with a genuine chance to win a championship under Ernie's regime. In the mean time, sure, lets just enjoy what we *do* manage to accomplish. And those who want to can keep dreaming about how Kevin Durant is going to ride in on a horse from the sky and save everything.

As to Philly, I'll remind you of what you wrote when they blow by us.

[dckingsfan]

Wait what? facts > hyperbole

hmmm

[payitforward]

PIFF

You did it again.

You inaccurately represented my position and then say you disagreed with it.

It being a fluid process is exactly one of the points I have been making.

Hands, once again, exactly what in particular did I misrepresent? I see nothing whatever.

Please provide an exact citation of a way I misrepresented you.

For example, in a later post you said that more than half the people here "missed the entire rebuild." I proved that wrong by actual simple citation of fact. Did I say something that wasn't true? Or did you not say what I just quoted you saying?

Whatever does "a fluid process" mean, btw?

[hands11]

Zards....you use assets to acquire good players. If the team had any coveted players outside of wall and Beal, Kevin Love could potentially be on this team. Because so many assets were wasted, we're stuck signing third and 4th tier big men. You can glaze over that fact all you want, but if the man picking the players were better at it, there would *surprise* be better players on the team. What a concept!

Sent from my SPH-L710 using RealGM Forums mobile app

I guess. If you think about it though, Minnesota has done a worse job so far with their opportunities.

- They passed on Stephen Curry (twice!)
- The best point guard they took in the 2009 draft was Ty Lawson who they ended up trading
- They passed on DeMarcus Cousins and took Wesley Johnson
- They whiffed on Derrick Williams; for all intensive purposes it was as bad as the Wizards taking Jan Vesely- and if you say that he's more talented then Minnesota did a horrible job in developing Williams

Even Golden State could have done a better job which only have 2 coveted assets in Curry and Klay Thompson

- They drafted Harrison Barnes over Andre Drummond
- They traded a lot of assets in a sign and trade for Iguodala which has hamstrung them

The only reason Cleveland has the assets is because they have gotten the #1 pick so many times that they right now have 4 players on their roster who are #1 picks. They have their own screw ups

- Tristan Thompson is OK but not as good as the Leonard/Faried
- Waiters over Lillard/Drummond
- Bennett looks better but they could have had Oladipo or Noel (OR EVEN OTTO PORTER )

Truth is it is easy to play retrospective GM when all the cards are in. Pretty much all the GMs who are rebuilding make errors; even OKC who took Jeff Green over Noah. Or you could argue that they should have taken Love over Westbrook in the first place.

And yet CLE would still have likely missed the playoff this year again if LeBron didn't return. Actually without LeBron, that franchise was rudderless and I projected it would all fail apart.

They lucked into having the #1 to get Lebron the first time and they lucked into him deciding to return. If not for that, they wouldn't have likely had any success.

Miami's grand success was only because 3 really good players, including Lebron again, decided they would all take less to form a super team. That got then two titles and now its breaking down.

The team that build the best prolonged top success was SAS. And even they lucked into Duncan and David Robinson. Two #1 picks in the right drafts 10 years apart.

[Brenice]

And yet CLE would still have likely missed the playoff this year again if LeBron didn't return. Actually without LeBron, that franchise was rudderless and I projected it would all fail apart.

They lucked into having the #1 to get Lebron the first time and they lucked into him deciding to return. If not for that, they wouldn't have likely had any success.

Miami's grand success was only because 3 really good players, including Lebron again, decided they would all take less to form a super team. That got then two titles and now its breaking down.

The team that build the best prolonged top success was SAS. And even they lucked into Duncan and David Robinson. Two #1 picks in the right drafts 10 years apart.

Some people hold the Wizards to a different standard than the other teams. That's like throwing out there that the Wizards beat the Bulls in these past playoffs without it's best player Rose but when the Wizards lost Arenas and Caron to injury, they gave LeBron and Cleveland credit for beating the Wizards because injuries have never been an excuse.

[fishercob]

PIFF

You did it again.

You inaccurately represented my position and then say you disagreed with it.

It being a fluid process is exactly one of the points I have been making.

Hands, once again, exactly what in particular did I misrepresent? I see nothing whatever.

Please provide an exact citation of a way I misrepresented you.

For example, in a later post you said that more than half the people here "missed the entire rebuild." I proved that wrong by actual simple citation of fact. Did I say something that wasn't true? Or did you not say what I just quoted you saying?

Whatever does "a fluid process" mean, btw?

PIF and hands!

[youtube]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BnuR3y8HUm8[/youtube]