Political Roundtable - Part VI

[nate33]

Also, I disagree with your characterization that Obamacare "drew heavily" from the Heritage foundation. Here is an article Stuart Butler, who headed the development of the policy at Heritage:

Nevertheless, the myth persists. ObamaCare “adopts the ‘individual mandate’ concept from the conservative Heritage Foundation,” Jonathan Alter wrote recently in The Washington Post. MSNBC’s Chris Matthews makes the same claim, asserting that Republican support of a mandate “has its roots in a proposal by the conservative Heritage Foundation.” Former House speaker Nancy Pelosi and others have made similar claims.

The confusion arises from the fact that 20 years ago, I held the view that as a technical matter, some form of requirement to purchase insurance was needed in a near-universal insurance market to avoid massive instability through “adverse selection” (insurers avoiding bad risks and healthy people declining coverage). At that time, President Clinton was proposing a universal health care plan, and Heritage and I devised a viable alternative.

My view was shared at the time by many conservative experts, including American Enterprise Institute (AEI) scholars, as well as most non-conservative analysts. Even libertarian-conservative icon Milton Friedman, in a 1991 Wall Street Journal article, advocated replacing Medicare and Medicaid “with a requirement that every U.S. family unit have a major medical insurance policy.”

My idea was hardly new. Heritage did not invent the individual mandate.

But the version of the health insurance mandate Heritage and I supported in the 1990s had three critical features. First, it was not primarily intended to push people to obtain protection for their own good, but to protect others. Like auto damage liability insurance required in most states, our requirement focused on “catastrophic” costs — so hospitals and taxpayers would not have to foot the bill for the expensive illness or accident of someone who did not buy insurance.

Second, we sought to induce people to buy coverage primarily through the carrot of a generous health credit or voucher, financed in part by a fundamental reform of the tax treatment of health coverage, rather than by a stick.

And third, in the legislation we helped craft that ultimately became a preferred alternative to ClintonCare, the “mandate” was actually the loss of certain tax breaks for those not choosing to buy coverage, not a legal requirement.

[Nivek]

nate: That's exactly the sort of thing that might have been good for lawmakers to work together on when the bill was up for consideration.

[fishercob]

Fine Nate...what did Obama do that was so radical? This should be interesting.

Obamacare.

So the one "radical" policy you could come up with is Obamacare. That's weak, Nate.

Btw, in case you missed it, Elizabeth Warren unseated Scott Brown in Massachusetts. Now we're talking radical...and I love it.

I hope Warren gets cast out of the Democratic Party for her recent truth-to-power speeches. It would be a step in the right direction towards a needed Third Party.

[TGW]

Obamacare was based on a plan developed by the conservative Heritage Foundation, and drew heavily from the system implemented by the GOP's nominee in 2012 when he was governor of Massachusetts. Seems like something they could have worked on together to make better.

I was just about to respond with this.

Obamacare is just an extention of the GOP's healthcare plan of the 90's. It was made in response to Hilary's plan.

*edit* Saw Nate's response, but I still think Obamacare is loosely based off that Hertitage Fnd plan. But that's beside the point--Obamacare simply is NOT radical. The plan was changed significantly due to opposition from the GOP, so boneheaded conservatives can only blame themselves for not working with the President to tailor it to their liking. They were so hung up on it being Obama's plan and not their own that they selfishly tried to reject it instead of trying to fix it.

[popper]

What I find radical about this president is his serial lying to accomplish his objectives. His incompetence on the other hand is understandable given his total lack of any management experience prior to taking office.

[TGW]

What I find radical about this president is his serial lying to accomplish his objectives. His incompetence on the other hand is understandable given his total lack of any management experience prior to taking office.

Serial lying, eh? Do you feel the same way about Bush?

[popper]

What I find radical about this president is his serial lying to accomplish his objectives. His incompetence on the other hand is understandable given his total lack of any management experience prior to taking office.

Serial lying, eh? Do you feel the same way about Bush?

My understanding is that Bush has been accused of lying twice. Once about WMD's in Iraq and another case involving Iraq as well I believe. I researched that and reported my thoughts on this thread several months ago. If I'm not mistaken, Bush and others claim that he was reporting what the intel community here and in western Europe had deduced based on their intelligence. I haven't found any proof that he intentionally lied about that but I'm open to new information if you care to provide it.

[Nivek]

I remain unconvinced that Obama is any less honest than others who have held his office, or than other politicians in general, or in comparison to humans in general. People lie. All of us.

[dckingsfan]

I remain unconvinced that Obama is any less honest than others who have held his office, or than other politicians in general, or in comparison to humans in general. People lie. All of us.

yeah, I am with you on this one... just going back to Bush and the Iran war should prove the point.

I think he ranks right in the middle of US Presidents.

[DCZards]

What I find radical about this president is his serial lying to accomplish his objectives. His incompetence on the other hand is understandable given his total lack of any management experience prior to taking office.

Serial lying, eh? Do you feel the same way about Bush?

My understanding is that Bush has been accused of lying twice. Once about WMD's in Iraq and another case involving Iraq as well I believe. I researched that and reported my thoughts on this thread several months ago. If I'm not mistaken, Bush and others claim that he was reporting what the intel community here and in western Europe had deduced based on their intelligence. I haven't found any proof that he intentionally lied about that but I'm open to new information if you care to provide it.

Popper, I don't know what "serial lies " Obama has told but I seriously doubt that any of Obama's lies were as devastating to this country--and the lives of tens of thousands of Americans and Iraqis--as that WMD lie told by Bush and his administration.

[TGW]

Popper, if you think Bush was operating based off of intelligence, then I suggest you read this link:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Saddam_Hus ... llegations

I thought it was well known that he manufactured the link between al quaida and Saddam.

[dckingsfan]

Popper, if you think Bush was operating based off of intelligence, then I suggest you read this link:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Saddam_Hus ... llegations

I thought it was well known that he manufactured the link between al quaida and Saddam.

It was one big serial lie

[popper]

Popper, if you think Bush was operating based off of intelligence, then I suggest you read this link:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Saddam_Hus ... llegations

I thought it was well known that he manufactured the link between al quaida and Saddam.

Is this the quote from Wiki that you are referring me to?

In the lead up to the Iraq War, U.S. President George W. Bush alleged that Iraqi President Saddam Hussein and militant group al-Qaeda might conspire to launch terrorist attacks on the United States,[2] basing the administration's rationale for war, in part, on this allegation and others.

If so, I can't find the lie in it. If I say this website might go down sometime soon and it doesn't, where's the lie.

[dckingsfan]

Popper, if you think Bush was operating based off of intelligence, then I suggest you read this link:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Saddam_Hus ... llegations

I thought it was well known that he manufactured the link between al quaida and Saddam.

Is this the quote from Wiki that you are referring me to?

In the lead up to the Iraq War, U.S. President George W. Bush alleged that Iraqi President Saddam Hussein and militant group al-Qaeda might conspire to launch terrorist attacks on the United States,[2] basing the administration's rationale for war, in part, on this allegation and others.

If so, I can't find the lie in it. If I say this website might go down sometime soon and it doesn't, where's the lie.

Come on Popper - that WMDs were manufactured as a pretense to go to war.

[popper]

Popper, if you think Bush was operating based off of intelligence, then I suggest you read this link:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Saddam_Hus ... llegations

I thought it was well known that he manufactured the link between al quaida and Saddam.

Is this the quote from Wiki that you are referring me to?

In the lead up to the Iraq War, U.S. President George W. Bush alleged that Iraqi President Saddam Hussein and militant group al-Qaeda might conspire to launch terrorist attacks on the United States,[2] basing the administration's rationale for war, in part, on this allegation and others.

If so, I can't find the lie in it. If I say this website might go down sometime soon and it doesn't, where's the lie.

Come on Popper - that WMDs were manufactured as a pretense to go to war.

If that's the case, then why did the DOE in a joint operation with DOD remove and secure 1.77 metric tons of enriched uranium from an Iraq Nuclear Research center? And wasn't it just recently disclosed that Hussein had 5,000 tank shells filled with sarin nerve gas, mustard gas, and other lethal agents? And what about the 550 metric tons of "yellowcake" we safely transferred from Iraq to Canada?

[dckingsfan]

Is this the quote from Wiki that you are referring me to?

In the lead up to the Iraq War, U.S. President George W. Bush alleged that Iraqi President Saddam Hussein and militant group al-Qaeda might conspire to launch terrorist attacks on the United States,[2] basing the administration's rationale for war, in part, on this allegation and others.

If so, I can't find the lie in it. If I say this website might go down sometime soon and it doesn't, where's the lie.

Come on Popper - that WMDs were manufactured as a pretense to go to war.

If that's the case, then why did the DOE in a joint operation with DOD remove and secure 1.77 metric tons of enriched uranium from an Iraq Nuclear Research center? And wasn't it just recently disclosed that Hussein had 5,000 tank shells filled with sarin nerve gas, mustard gas, and other lethal agents? And what about the 550 metric tons of "yellowcake" we safely transferred from Iraq to Canada?

Come on Popper... that isn't the pretense we used. And we continued to lie about. It is the serial lie part you don't like about Obama.

[TGW]

Popper, if you think Bush was operating based off of intelligence, then I suggest you read this link:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Saddam_Hus ... llegations

I thought it was well known that he manufactured the link between al quaida and Saddam.

Is this the quote from Wiki that you are referring me to?

In the lead up to the Iraq War, U.S. President George W. Bush alleged that Iraqi President Saddam Hussein and militant group al-Qaeda might conspire to launch terrorist attacks on the United States,[2] basing the administration's rationale for war, in part, on this allegation and others.

If so, I can't find the lie in it. If I say this website might go down sometime soon and it doesn't, where's the lie.

Was that supposed to be in the green font?

Fine...if that's not a lie, then it's a HIGHLY IRRESPONSIBLE way of making a point to the American people. I call it a lie, you call it...something else.

[popper]

Come on Popper - that WMDs were manufactured as a pretense to go to war.

If that's the case, then why did the DOE in a joint operation with DOD remove and secure 1.77 metric tons of enriched uranium from an Iraq Nuclear Research center? And wasn't it just recently disclosed that Hussein had 5,000 tank shells filled with sarin nerve gas, mustard gas, and other lethal agents? And what about the 550 metric tons of "yellowcake" we safely transferred from Iraq to Canada?

Come on Popper... that isn't the pretense we used. And we continued to lie about. It is the serial lie part you don't like about Obama.

I just demonstrated that according to reliable news reports, Hussein did in fact have WMD''s. If I'm not mistaken, that is one of the spokes in the wheel of the "Bush lied people died" narratives foist upon the public by the left and its big media conspirators. I despise Bush just as I despise Obama (for different reasons of course) but lets uncover the facts and follow them wherever they may lead.

[popper]

Popper, if you think Bush was operating based off of intelligence, then I suggest you read this link:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Saddam_Hus ... llegations

I thought it was well known that he manufactured the link between al quaida and Saddam.

Is this the quote from Wiki that you are referring me to?

In the lead up to the Iraq War, U.S. President George W. Bush alleged that Iraqi President Saddam Hussein and militant group al-Qaeda might conspire to launch terrorist attacks on the United States,[2] basing the administration's rationale for war, in part, on this allegation and others.

If so, I can't find the lie in it. If I say this website might go down sometime soon and it doesn't, where's the lie.

Was that supposed to be in the green font?

Fine...if that's not a lie, then it's a HIGHLY IRRESPONSIBLE way of making a point to the American people. I call it a lie, you call it...something else.

I appreciate your honesty and open-mindedness TGW. We agree the public and the media did not parse Bush's statement accurately and we agree that it was, in retrospect, irresponsible for Bush to have said some of the things he did in his push for war. You say he lied, I say I cannot prove that he did.

[Nivek]

I just demonstrated that according to reliable news reports, Hussein did in fact have WMD''s. If I'm not mistaken, that is one of the spokes in the wheel of the "Bush lied people died" narratives foist upon the public by the left and its big media conspirators. I despise Bush just as I despise Obama (for different reasons of course) but lets uncover the facts and follow them wherever they may lead.

Well, not so fast. The Bush administration's claim was that Iraq and Hussein both possessed and was producing chemical and biological weapons. Colin Powell told the UN that prohibited weapons were being driven around the countryside to avoid detection, and described mobile production facilities.

Here's what the New York Times reported in October:

“During the long occupation, American troops began encountering old chemical munitions in hidden caches and roadside bombs. Typically 155-millimeter artillery shells or 122-millimeter rockets, they were remnants of an arms program Iraq had rushed into production in the 1980s during the Iran-Iraq war.

“All had been manufactured before 1991, participants said. Filthy, rusty or corroded, a large fraction of them could not be readily identified as chemical weapons at all. Some were empty, though many of them still contained potent mustard agent or residual sarin. Most could not have been used as designed, and when they ruptured dispersed the chemical agents over a limited area, according to those who collected the majority of them.”

So, what eventually turned up doesn't support the claims made by the Bush administration. What turned up was evidence of stuff that had been manufactured 12 years earlier and had fallen into gross disrepair.

For what it's worth, I'm not convinced that Bush or Powell lied -- in the sense that they knowingly said things they knew to be false. From what I've read, Cheney basically manufactured the "intelligence" and ran with it both internally and to the public.