Political Roundtable - Part VI

[DCZards]

It's one heartbreaking story after another. Please insist that our govt secure the border before someone you love is destroyed.

Illegal resident jailed in Russellville for rape and sodomy of a child

.... According to police, Ramiro Ajualip raped and sodomized a 10-year-old girl while the victim’s parents were not at home.

http://whnt.com/2015/03/09/illegal-resi ... f-a-child/

Popper, there are roughly 300k rapes a year in the USA of those 10 and older. Around 820 per day.

The problem is evil men commit sexual assault, regardless where they are from.....or education level. Please don't label Latinos like myself as rapists/murderers. It's as bad/worse as using Ferguson to vilify all cops as racists.

I really hope Republicans don't go with this race-baiting schtick as well. Democrats with "save the black poor" vs republicans "evict the threatening Hispanics" would insult me directly on both sides.

I agree with this. Things like using a rape by an individual immigrant to tar all immigrants are stereotypes and generalizations that we should avoid and detest. And I would add that the recent cop shootings in Ferguson should not be used to vilify the protest organizers or the rest of the protestors.

[nate33]

It's one heartbreaking story after another. Please insist that our govt secure the border before someone you love is destroyed.

Illegal resident jailed in Russellville for rape and sodomy of a child

.... According to police, Ramiro Ajualip raped and sodomized a 10-year-old girl while the victim’s parents were not at home.

http://whnt.com/2015/03/09/illegal-resi ... f-a-child/

Popper, there are roughly 300k rapes a year in the USA of those 10 and older. Around 820 per day.

The problem is evil men commit sexual assault, regardless where they are from.....or education level. Please don't label Latinos like myself as rapists/murderers. It's as bad/worse as using Ferguson to vilify all cops as racists.

I really hope Republicans don't go with this race-baiting schtick as well. Democrats with "save the black poor" vs republicans "evict the threatening Hispanics" would insult me directly on both sides.

I agree. The crime angle doesn't really sway me when discussing illegal immigration. For the most part, illegal immigrants from Mexico and Latin America aren't significantly more crime prone than lower-income whites in America.

The reason to oppose illegal immigration is that it drives down wages of low-income workers. There are already a finite (and decreasing) number of low skill jobs available. Increasing the available labor pool of low skilled workers will only drive down wages and put more people on welfare. It baffles me that Democrats who are supposed to be the champions of the poor do not seem to understand this. (I say this facetiously. Democrats are in favor of more illegal immigrants because the WANT more people on the dole so they will continue to vote Democrat.)

[Ruzious]

I disagree that it's somehow possible to control other people's behavior. If the Republican mandate is to undermine everything Obama works for no matter what it is (which is pretty much what the Republican leadership said when Obama was elected), then no amount of bipartisanship on Obama's part is going to work.

Reagan, Bush I and Clinton all had the advantage of Dixie Democrats who caucused with the Dems but otherwise were essentially Republican. That dynamic made compromise possible. Now that all the southern states have gone over to the Republican caucus there is no ideological overlap at all between the two parties and compromise is effectively impossible.

dckingsfan, the bolded part is the bottom line. No amount of leadership was going to change that. It's like back in the day when the PLO put it in their constitution that Israel must be destroyed and then didn't understand when Israel refused to negotiate with them. Then people blindly say "the fault is on both sides." No it's not. If one side's primary goal is to remove the other, then there's no negotiating.

[dckingsfan]

Yeah, I disagree Ruzious - I remember back in the day when the Ds did the same to Reagan but he was affable and just kept reaching out.

I would say the same about Clinton - the Rs were almost as bad then and the contract with America was intransient.

IN MY OPINION - I don't think that Obama tried. I don't think he has the skill or the personality to reach across the aisles. And I think he likes antagonizing the right.

NOTE: this is not a justification for the knuckleheads on the far right shutting down the government. That is the wrong way to govern.

[Ruzious]

Yeah, I disagree Ruzious - I remember back in the day when the Ds did the same to Reagan but he was affable and just kept reaching out.

I would say the same about Clinton - the Rs were almost as bad then and the contract with America was intransient.

IN MY OPINION - I don't think that Obama tried. I don't think he has the skill or the personality to reach across the aisles. And I think he likes antagonizing the right.

NOTE: this is not a justification for the knuckleheads on the far right shutting down the government. That is the wrong way to govern.

Yes, there was animosity in Reagan's day, but Congress didn't make their primary goal to remove the president - as the House (but not Senate) did in the Clinton era - and now it appears to be the primary goal of both the House and Senate.

Btw, there was a very nice piece of bipartisan tax legislation under Reagan with the Tax Act of 1986. Real good book on the political maneuvering called Showdown at Gucci Gulch - enjoyable reading if you have the time.

[Wizardspride]

Yeah, I disagree Ruzious - I remember back in the day when the Ds did the same to Reagan but he was affable and just kept reaching out.

I would say the same about Clinton - the Rs were almost as bad then and the contract with America was intransient.

IN MY OPINION - I don't think that Obama tried. I don't think he has the skill or the personality to reach across the aisles. And I think he likes antagonizing the right.

NOTE: this is not a justification for the knuckleheads on the far right shutting down the government. That is the wrong way to govern.

I respectfully disagree.

Obama has reached out and attempted compromise on quite a bit. To his bases chagrin actually.

Hell, he offered Boehner SS cuts (which I disagreed with). If you don't call that reaching out well then I can't help you.

Its not his fault that Boehner couldn't keep his caucus in line.

Basically, I don't know how you can fault Obama when the other side was meeting LITERALLY while the inaugural balls were taking place with the sole goal of sabotaging/distrupting

And I'm not talking about opposing Obama's agenda because they fundamentally disagree with it.

That would be one thing.

I'm talking about making a decision to oppose things the GOP had previously agreed with just because President Obama proposes it.

That's just BS.



Imo, the GOP isn't upset with Obama's failure to "compromise". They don't want him to compromise.

They want him to submit. That's it. plain and simple.





Truth be told, I find it laughable that he's expected to play nice with a group who have basically said he's not one us.

He's unamerican, he's a traitor, he has a Kenyan anti colonial mindset, blowing off meeting with the president "because you have other things to do" etc etc.

I could go on and on.....

[dckingsfan]

Kind of the same thing they did with Reagan, he didn't let it get in his way... just saying. And they beat Clinton up worse than Obama, IMO. And he cut through the BS.

I think those are all excuses for someone that couldn't get that part of the job done.

But alas, there is no way for us to agree on this one - way to subjective.

[Wizardspride]

Kind of the same thing they did with Reagan, he didn't let it get in his way... just saying. And they beat Clinton up worse than Obama, IMO. And he cut through the BS.

I think those are all excuses for someone that couldn't get that part of the job done.

But alas, there is no way for us to agree on this one - way to subjective.

I really don't think it is that subjective.

Interestingly enough, you never actually touched on anything I (Or Ruzious,Zonk,DCZards) actually posted.

Honestly, all I hear are rightwing talking points.

I mean I listed actual events that have happened and you're only response is to say "both sides do it".


If both sides do it you should have no problem listing some of the times mean old Obama failed to compromise while the noble GOP reached out but were rebuffed.

(Heck, I can think of a few myself.)

I'll give you some time to research......

[dckingsfan]

Ha! I am not right wing. I am not an R either. In no way do I agree with the knuckleheads on the right. I was posting my disappointment in Obama after I voted him. Probably the reason that the argument doesn't come across coherently - nor do I feel single events describe the whole - hence why I didn't respond to them.

[Wizardspride]

Ha! I am not right wing. I am not an R either. In no way do I agree with the knuckleheads on the right. I was posting my disappointment in Obama after I voted him. Probably the reason that the argument doesn't come across coherently - nor do I feel single events describe the whole - hence why I didn't respond to them.

I like that answer.

[Ruzious]

Ha! I am not right wing. I am not an R either. In no way do I agree with the knuckleheads on the right. I was posting my disappointment in Obama after I voted him. Probably the reason that the argument doesn't come across coherently - nor do I feel single events describe the whole - hence why I didn't respond to them.

I knew you weren't all bad.

[popper]

It's one heartbreaking story after another. Please insist that our govt secure the border before someone you love is destroyed.

Illegal resident jailed in Russellville for rape and sodomy of a child

.... According to police, Ramiro Ajualip raped and sodomized a 10-year-old girl while the victim’s parents were not at home.

http://whnt.com/2015/03/09/illegal-resi ... f-a-child/

Popper, there are roughly 300k rapes a year in the USA of those 10 and older. Around 820 per day.

The problem is evil men commit sexual assault, regardless where they are from.....or education level. Please don't label Latinos like myself as rapists/murderers. It's as bad/worse as using Ferguson to vilify all cops as racists.

I really hope Republicans don't go with this race-baiting schtick as well. Democrats with "save the black poor" vs republicans "evict the threatening Hispanics" would insult me directly on both sides.

I didn't focus on where the criminal came from Induveca. Of course I don't care where he came from or what his cultural background, ethnicity or religion is. The fact that he and many others are here illegally committing crimes should be an insult to every American citizen. I fear it's not though. Many seem to accept it (or believe its unavoidable) for whatever reason, and I just want to warn that if we don't hold our govt. accountable for enforcing the immigration laws and protecting the borders then it is a given that someone we love will eventually be murdered, molested, raped or robbed by someone that shouldn't even be here in the first place (had our govt. done its job). I post these types of tragedies because the MSM purposely avoids publicizing them so as to support a false and dangerous narrative. My position on illegal immigration is shared by tens of millions of Americans and all we want is that our borders are secured and immigration laws enforced.

[dckingsfan]

I can understand Induveca reaction though - I have seen studies that show that immigrants are much less likely to be involved in crimes of all types... looking for the link but I can't find it.

[crackhed]

Kind of the same thing they did with Reagan, he didn't let it get in his way... just saying. And they beat Clinton up worse than Obama, IMO. And he cut through the BS.

I think those are all excuses for someone that couldn't get that part of the job done.

But alas, there is no way for us to agree on this one - way to subjective.

i'm with u here. the president made a few attempts on one hand, but also never misses an opportunity to demonize republicans. to say this dysfunction falls solely on republicans is hogwash imo, and in the end, the job simply isn't getting done.

[dobrojim]

Great piece by my guy Bacevich on Moyer's site. The piece originally appeared on Tomgram which I have
never heard of.

http://billmoyers.com/2015/03/11/rationalizing-lunacy-intellectual-servant-state/

one of the more entertaining passages

In this wonky world, the coin of the realm has been and remains “policy relevance.” This means devising products that convey a sense of novelty, while serving chiefly to perpetuate the ongoing enterprise. The ultimate example of a policy-relevant insight is Dr. Strangelove’s discovery of a “mineshaft gap” — successor to the “bomber gap” and the “missile gap” that, in the 1950s, had found America allegedly lagging behind the Soviets in weaponry and desperately needing to catch up. Now, with a thermonuclear exchange about to destroy the planet, the United States is once more falling behind, Strangelove claims, this time in digging underground shelters enabling some small proportion of the population to survive.

Make people afraid and you can get them to do almost anything. It's still the coin of the realm.

[dckingsfan]

Yep, and if you are good at portraying the problem - you can almost always get government to intercede - even when they are the worst at solving the problem. Then the government program is in place - and it will never go away. So the key as a lobbying business is to use fear to put in federal programs.

In the case of the defense machine - it always wants more money.

But you could make the argument that the environmentalists use the same tactics - the world is going to end unless (put your favorite program in that requires a new government program).

Or the world of education - we are going to become impoverished if our kids grades don't go up (put your favorite program in that requires a new government program).

Or the world of your soul - our country will be damned if we don't stop abortion (put in your favorite limits).

dobrojim, do you feel that they are using the "we will never have fair government and will be run by the wonks unless we have a new government program to eliminate the wonks" fear mongering approach?

[Wizardspride]

Click to read the rest
http://www.stltoday.com/news/local/crim ... 02459.html

Police dash cam shows part of contested arrest – until St. Louis officer turns camera off


ST. LOUIS • As video cameras begin to sweep post-Ferguson policing — and policymakers grapple with whether to bar the public from watching the images — one such recording sits at the heart of a new lawsuit.

It shows St. Louis police making an arrest that would later be called abusive, and catches an apparently surprised officer yelling, in part, “Everybody hold up. We’re red right now!” before she abruptly shuts off the camera.

Joel Schwartz and Bevis Schock, lawyers who filed suit Jan. 22 on behalf of Cortez Bufford, said “red” is cop slang for a running camera. What is seen before the video stops, they claim, supports their accusations in St. Louis Circuit Court that police lacked probable cause and applied excessive force.

The video, which St. Louis Mayor Francis Slay’s office had asked a private lawyer to delay releasing last summer, shows city officers pull Bufford from a car, kick him repeatedly and shock him with a Taser. It played a role in the dropping of charges against Bufford.

But a lawyer for the St. Louis Police Officers’ Association insists that the video really reflects a proper escalation of force applied against a resisting suspect who was lucky he didn’t get shot when he reached for a gun.

Police Chief Sam Dotson declined to comment on the specifics of the case.

[dobrojim]

Yep, and if you are good at portraying the problem - you can almost always get government to intercede - even when they are the worst at solving the problem. Then the government program is in place - and it will never go away. So the key as a lobbying business is to use fear to put in federal programs.

In the case of the defense machine - it always wants more money.

But you could make the argument that the environmentalists use the same tactics - the world is going to end unless (put your favorite program in that requires a new government program).

Or the world of education - we are going to become impoverished if our kids grades don't go up (put your favorite program in that requires a new government program).

Or the world of your soul - our country will be damned if we don't stop abortion (put in your favorite limits).

dobrojim, do you feel that they are using the "we will never have fair government and will be run by the wonks unless we have a new government program to eliminate the wonks" fear mongering approach?

To which I would merely point out that the war-fear mongerers have been orders of magnitude more
successful in getting govt to throw money at their problem. The result of this has been untold misery
and deaths by the thousands (conservatively). I'm not sure how any other group having that level of
success could have brought about that level of misery on humanity. What would be the consequences
if the respective budgets of the EPA and pentagon were switched just as a thought experiment?

To your question - what I believe Bacevich is pointing out is that we are clearly being misled by
those who are now claiming islamofascism is an existential threat that only be averted by
military intervention. As proof I cite the number of people in the US who actually fear an islamic
caliphate could be established in the USA. Think seriously about this and realize how absurd
it actually is. It ain't gonna happen. And yet with every beheading, as awful as each one is,
the level of fear rises and the clammer that something must be done grows another 10 db.

The other thing that I believe Bacevich is trying to point out is that these same people
have been consistently wrong over and over again. But they never seem to lose influence.

[dckingsfan]

They have been incredibly successful. Eisenhower warned us of this in '61.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Military%E ... al_complex

My only point assertion is that the fear mongering has been seized upon by the many other groups. Including one that is near and dear to your heart, the EPA and the environmentalists. I also gave the example of the educational establishment as well and I could give lots of other examples - as you could I am sure.

One of the best ways that they do this is baseline spending. No increase sounds the warning bells of impending doom. And baseline spending dooms us to an unbalanced budget - hitting the poorest among us. r>g especially with deficit spending.

So, my question is - is all of the doom and gloom fear mongering bad or only when it goes for programs you are against. I find that the Rs and Ds both are against the fear mongering but only when it serves their purposes.

[dobrojim]

Fear causes us to act irrationally and often in ways that would be unthinkable if not for the fear.
The people that write and shape political ads understand this fact extremely well as have many
of history's most successful propagandists. The propagandists working on behalf of the environment
and education have arguably failed, especially relative to the islamofasci-phobists and before the
that the commun-phobists.