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The Problem that is Nene

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Re: The Problem that is Nene 

Post#101 » by FAH1223 » Sat Nov 29, 2014 5:37 pm

doclinkin wrote:The chief problem with Nene is an ironic one: he is so good at pick and roll defense that he makes our defense worse. Or leastways we rely on him such that bad habits develop, and when he's gone the squad can no longer get away with the laziness that his presence covers.

The best principle of P&R defense for a guard is to stick with your man, fight through screens and keep in front of him. But with Nene on the court, by positioning alone often he is able to both challenge the Roll man and the Guard after the pick, much as he is also able to box out multiple opponents. He's quick active and large enough to guard a perimeter player long enough to force them to give up the ball or allow the wing defender to pick them up so he can sag back and recover. He has the lively feet and spatial intelligence that many converted soccer players have (Olajuwon, Steve Nash, forgetting others, I had a list once...).

HIs raw stats do not reflect this, because he doesn't work for a block, nor collect the rebound on the missed shot, he simply plays a superior positional defense in the wide arc between the cylinder and the three point line. He patrols that space and makes 'em miss, that's enough. He is not solely playing his man on defense he is playing the angles and positions. Soccer style more than a cornerback sticking to a receiver.

But with Nene out of the game our guards forget they've gotten lazy, and in failing to fight over the pick and dropping under they let their man free for an open shot, which forces slower Bigs to step up to switch on that man-to-man defense, leading to mismatches that any savvy coach/guard braintrust can exploit (eg. Budenholzer/Teague in the ATL game; JKidd/Knight in the Bucks tilt). Nene manages to challenge and recover while playing both the drive and the pass, and give our guards time to catch up. Our guards get used to that. Nene gets a booboo on his footsie wootsie. Suddenly our defense sucks.

Compounded by the fact that Ariza isn't here to slow down that ball handler in the first place if they threaten to go off and John stays lazy and okay we're gonna be torched by tier-B perimeter players until John stops being lazy on defense and uses that speed to stick with them and gets strong enough -- tough enough-- not to be scared of the pick man.


His national teammate, Tiago Splitter, is also very similar to Nene in pick and roll defense.
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Re: The Problem that is Nene 

Post#102 » by Sluggerface » Sat Nov 29, 2014 10:40 pm

Brazil88 wrote:
Sluggerface wrote:
Brazil88 wrote:Every freaking year is the same BS... :banghead: :banghead: :banghead:

Last season people were creaming themselves over the thought of trading for Ersan freaking Ilyasova, saying he would be a better option as the starting PF for the Wizards. Jesussssssss Christ. This turkish motherf**** has been garbage for 90% of his NBA career.

Nene is far from perfect, i too wish he could correct some of his mistakes, especially his FT shooting, but the guy is a very important piece to this team and organization. He never cared about stats, he always said that, even when he was younger in Denver. And i know most players say this, but with him you can see on the court. The team is just better with him. Deal with it.


Lol what? Ersan had a rough season last year dealing with injuries, but he's getting back to his 2011-2013 form. He's just flat out better than Nene is right now, he's five years younger, and on a much more reasonable contract. I don't get how you see him being garbage for 90% of his NBA career. He's always been a great rebounder, his defense is serviceable, and most importantly he can space the floor and doesn't stall the offense, and he had Brandon Jennings of all guards feeding him the ball. It still didn't stop him from being a productive and efficient player.

I don't get how anyone can defend Nene other than being a good defender. He's barely averaging .100 win shares per 48 minutes since he's arrived on the Wizards. That's utterly horrible for someone that is frequently the first option on offense.


You know what?! I'm tired. You guys won the discussion, you are all right. I'm leaving this thread. Don't even need to quote me anymore. I give up. All you Nene haters are right and I'm wrong. Nene is garbage and Ersan Ilyasova is a GREAT PF.


I never said Ilyasova is a great PF. He's an efficient one that rebounds well. I also never said that Nene was garbage. He brings elite defense, but that defense only gives the team a marginal benefit due to how horribly inefficient he is on offense, compounded with the fact that he's only good for about 50-60 games a season, and it's easy to see why an upgrade needs to be in order. This isn't hate, this is simply stating what needs to happen for this team to be successful and grow.
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Re: The Problem that is Nene 

Post#103 » by hands11 » Sun Nov 30, 2014 9:07 pm

Brazil88 wrote:
Sluggerface wrote:
Brazil88 wrote:Every freaking year is the same BS... :banghead: :banghead: :banghead:

Last season people were creaming themselves over the thought of trading for Ersan freaking Ilyasova, saying he would be a better option as the starting PF for the Wizards. Jesussssssss Christ. This turkish motherf**** has been garbage for 90% of his NBA career.

Nene is far from perfect, i too wish he could correct some of his mistakes, especially his FT shooting, but the guy is a very important piece to this team and organization. He never cared about stats, he always said that, even when he was younger in Denver. And i know most players say this, but with him you can see on the court. The team is just better with him. Deal with it.


Lol what? Ersan had a rough season last year dealing with injuries, but he's getting back to his 2011-2013 form. He's just flat out better than Nene is right now, he's five years younger, and on a much more reasonable contract. I don't get how you see him being garbage for 90% of his NBA career. He's always been a great rebounder, his defense is serviceable, and most importantly he can space the floor and doesn't stall the offense, and he had Brandon Jennings of all guards feeding him the ball. It still didn't stop him from being a productive and efficient player.

I don't get how anyone can defend Nene other than being a good defender. He's barely averaging .100 win shares per 48 minutes since he's arrived on the Wizards. That's utterly horrible for someone that is frequently the first option on offense.


You know what?! I'm tired. You guys won the discussion, you are all right. I'm leaving this thread. Don't even need to quote me anymore. I give up. All you Nene haters are right and I'm wrong. Nene is garbage and Ersan Ilyasova is a GREAT PF.


Don't stop posting. I expect the board to slowly get better as more people like you contribute.
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Re: The Problem that is Nene 

Post#104 » by Brazil88 » Mon Dec 1, 2014 12:04 am

hands11 wrote:
Brazil88 wrote:
Sluggerface wrote:
Lol what? Ersan had a rough season last year dealing with injuries, but he's getting back to his 2011-2013 form. He's just flat out better than Nene is right now, he's five years younger, and on a much more reasonable contract. I don't get how you see him being garbage for 90% of his NBA career. He's always been a great rebounder, his defense is serviceable, and most importantly he can space the floor and doesn't stall the offense, and he had Brandon Jennings of all guards feeding him the ball. It still didn't stop him from being a productive and efficient player.

I don't get how anyone can defend Nene other than being a good defender. He's barely averaging .100 win shares per 48 minutes since he's arrived on the Wizards. That's utterly horrible for someone that is frequently the first option on offense.


You know what?! I'm tired. You guys won the discussion, you are all right. I'm leaving this thread. Don't even need to quote me anymore. I give up. All you Nene haters are right and I'm wrong. Nene is garbage and Ersan Ilyasova is a GREAT PF.


Don't stop posting. I expect the board to slowly get better as more people like you contribute.


I won't stop posting, just in this thread because i feel like i won't get anything good from it.

Thank you for the kind words, but i already think this board is pretty good and have a lot of very good posters. I don't post very often, but on the majority of the time i really enjoy the discussions around here. Actually, this board is the reason that made me a Wizards fan. I always thought that i loved basketball and the NBA so much that i couldn't be a fan of any team, because all i wanted was to cheer for good basketball.

But reading this board i could really relate to the Wizards fans, as a lot of the things you guys write seems exactly the same things i talk to my friends here in Brazil about our soccer team. It kinda created a bridge between the Wizards and my soccer team in Brazil and it just felt right to become a Wizards fan.

So, no...I'm not going to stop posting here. And yes...i really like this board. Just think Nene is underappreciated around here, but that's ok. I'll move on from this.
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Re: The Problem that is Nene 

Post#105 » by Chocolate City Jordanaire » Mon Dec 1, 2014 12:33 am

Brazil soccer really had a hard time emotionally. They underperformed and seemed to let pressure really get to them. I felt badly for them, and I'm not even a big soccer fan.

I'm glad you'll keep posting here, Brazil88.

PS -- I met Nene when he came to Hawaii back in 2001 or 2002 at Pete Newell's. I got his autograph. I thought then "That guy's going to be a star". At that time I doubt he spoke much English. He did have bright eyes and just the look of a magnetic, good person. He was very receptive to signing autographs and that meant a lot to me. (As opposed to Wizards who acted too important to acknowledge me, Brendan Haywood and Etan Thomas. Even Tyson Chandler and Eddie Curry were friendly. Not the two former Wizards. Those guys were not stand up guys, and I don't really understand why.)

Nene changed the culture of this team for the better. When he first arrived, it was very obvious that he is a much, much better player than Javale McGee. I hope his health holds up come playoff time.
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Re: The Problem that is Nene 

Post#106 » by hands11 » Mon Dec 1, 2014 2:37 am

Brazil88 wrote:
hands11 wrote:
Brazil88 wrote:
You know what?! I'm tired. You guys won the discussion, you are all right. I'm leaving this thread. Don't even need to quote me anymore. I give up. All you Nene haters are right and I'm wrong. Nene is garbage and Ersan Ilyasova is a GREAT PF.


Don't stop posting. I expect the board to slowly get better as more people like you contribute.


I won't stop posting, just in this thread because i feel like i won't get anything good from it.

Thank you for the kind words, but i already think this board is pretty good and have a lot of very good posters. I don't post very often, but on the majority of the time i really enjoy the discussions around here. Actually, this board is the reason that made me a Wizards fan. I always thought that i loved basketball and the NBA so much that i couldn't be a fan of any team, because all i wanted was to cheer for good basketball.

But reading this board i could really relate to the Wizards fans, as a lot of the things you guys write seems exactly the same things i talk to my friends here in Brazil about our soccer team. It kinda created a bridge between the Wizards and my soccer team in Brazil and it just felt right to become a Wizards fan.

So, no...I'm not going to stop posting here. And yes...i really like this board. Just think Nene is underappreciated around here, but that's ok. I'll move on from this.


Cool. Glad you enjoying it here.

So you live in Brazil now ?

Yeah, Nene has been both loved and not loved here. Its just to bad he can't drop a few pounds and make his free throws. I think he would be even more appreciated if he did those two things. For me, I have enjoyed him being a Wizards. Head butt thing and all. There have been frustrating moments along the way but overall he has added a lot to this team.
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Re: The Problem that is Nene 

Post#107 » by payitforward » Mon Dec 1, 2014 2:57 am

hands11 wrote:
Brazil88 wrote:
Sluggerface wrote:
Lol what? Ersan had a rough season last year dealing with injuries, but he's getting back to his 2011-2013 form. He's just flat out better than Nene is right now, he's five years younger, and on a much more reasonable contract. I don't get how you see him being garbage for 90% of his NBA career. He's always been a great rebounder, his defense is serviceable, and most importantly he can space the floor and doesn't stall the offense, and he had Brandon Jennings of all guards feeding him the ball. It still didn't stop him from being a productive and efficient player.

I don't get how anyone can defend Nene other than being a good defender. He's barely averaging .100 win shares per 48 minutes since he's arrived on the Wizards. That's utterly horrible for someone that is frequently the first option on offense.


You know what?! I'm tired. You guys won the discussion, you are all right. I'm leaving this thread. Don't even need to quote me anymore. I give up. All you Nene haters are right and I'm wrong. Nene is garbage and Ersan Ilyasova is a GREAT PF.

Don't stop posting. I expect the board to slowly get better as more people like you contribute.

Congratulations, Hands -- another totally asinine remark.
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Re: The Problem that is Nene 

Post#108 » by Brazil88 » Mon Dec 1, 2014 4:07 pm

Chocolate City Jordanaire wrote:Brazil soccer really had a hard time emotionally. They underperformed and seemed to let pressure really get to them. I felt badly for them, and I'm not even a big soccer fan.

I'm glad you'll keep posting here, Brazil88.

PS -- I met Nene when he came to Hawaii back in 2001 or 2002 at Pete Newell's. I got his autograph. I thought then "That guy's going to be a star". At that time I doubt he spoke much English. He did have bright eyes and just the look of a magnetic, good person. He was very receptive to signing autographs and that meant a lot to me. (As opposed to Wizards who acted too important to acknowledge me, Brendan Haywood and Etan Thomas. Even Tyson Chandler and Eddie Curry were friendly. Not the two former Wizards. Those guys were not stand up guys, and I don't really understand why.)

Nene changed the culture of this team for the better. When he first arrived, it was very obvious that he is a much, much better player than Javale McGee. I hope his health holds up come playoff time.


I wasn't talking about the Brazilian NT, i was saying that Wizards fans have the same characteristics that the fans of my soccer team (from the Brazilian soccer league) have. My bad english might have made you confused it.

Yes, Nene was a pretty cool and charismatic dude. He changed and become a little more restricted to fans and media after a lot of criticism he received in Brazil for not playing for our National Team (which was stupid by the fans and media here).

hands11 wrote:Cool. Glad you enjoying it here.

So you live in Brazil now ?

Yeah, Nene has been both loved and not loved here. Its just to bad he can't drop a few pounds and make his free throws. I think he would be even more appreciated if he did those two things. For me, I have enjoyed him being a Wizards. Head butt thing and all. There have been frustrating moments along the way but overall he has added a lot to this team.


I am Brazilian.
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Re: The Problem that is Nene 

Post#109 » by deneem4 » Thu Dec 4, 2014 2:44 am

we dont suck without nene
Pay your beals....or its lights out!!!
Bron, Bosh, Wade is like Mike, Hakeem, barkley...3 top 5 picks from same draft
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Re: The Problem that is Nene 

Post#110 » by hands11 » Fri Dec 5, 2014 1:01 am

deneem4 wrote:we dont suck without nene


I think we are 3-3 without him now. Thats the best they have done without him ever I believe.

Again, Nene only playing 60 games is actually good for this team as constructed because they have other players to step in and help make the team that gels deeper such that an injury doesn't derail them.

As long as they are winning, Nene should rest up.
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Re: The Problem that is Nene 

Post#111 » by deneem4 » Fri Dec 5, 2014 1:55 am

hands11 wrote:
deneem4 wrote:we dont suck without nene


I think we are 3-3 without him now. Thats the best they have done without him ever I believe.

Again, Nene only playing 60 games is actually good for this team as constructed because they have other players to step in and help make the team that gels deeper such that an injury doesn't derail them.

As long as they are winning, Nene should rest up.


it jus sucks were oaying a guy so much to play a 3rd of the season at reduced minutes....when he comes back he have to come off the bench...we have pretty good chemistry and I dont wan to risk that
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Bron, Bosh, Wade is like Mike, Hakeem, barkley...3 top 5 picks from same draft
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Re: The Problem that is Nene 

Post#112 » by fishercob » Sun Dec 14, 2014 12:49 pm

The problem that is Nene has been solved by Hump.

$13M for Nene isn't worth it.

$17M for Nene and Hump is indeed worth it.

Throw in the fact that Gortat/Pierce cost a combined $16M and the Nene problem really isn't a problem.

As long Nene is willing to continue to come off the bench and play limited minutes, there's no problem. The depth and physicality of the Wizards front court is going to be a source of competitive advantage. That's pretty cool.
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Re: The Problem that is Nene 

Post#113 » by cdouglas » Sun Dec 14, 2014 1:30 pm

What I like about Nene is that he's physical and brings toughness to this team. We're no longer the charmin soft team we were in the past. We won games with him playing against Cleveland and lost without him.
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Re: The Problem that is Nene 

Post#114 » by nate33 » Sun Dec 14, 2014 2:56 pm

doclinkin wrote:The chief problem with Nene is an ironic one: he is so good at pick and roll defense that he makes our defense worse. Or leastways we rely on him such that bad habits develop, and when he's gone the squad can no longer get away with the laziness that his presence covers.

The best principle of P&R defense for a guard is to stick with your man, fight through screens and keep in front of him. But with Nene on the court, by positioning alone often he is able to both challenge the Roll man and the Guard after the pick, much as he is also able to box out multiple opponents. He's quick active and large enough to guard a perimeter player long enough to force them to give up the ball or allow the wing defender to pick them up so he can sag back and recover. He has the lively feet and spatial intelligence that many converted soccer players have (Olajuwon, Steve Nash, forgetting others, I had a list once...).

HIs raw stats do not reflect this, because he doesn't work for a block, nor collect the rebound on the missed shot, he simply plays a superior positional defense in the wide arc between the cylinder and the three point line. He patrols that space and makes 'em miss, that's enough. He is not solely playing his man on defense he is playing the angles and positions. Soccer style more than a cornerback sticking to a receiver.

But with Nene out of the game our guards forget they've gotten lazy, and in failing to fight over the pick and dropping under they let their man free for an open shot, which forces slower Bigs to step up to switch on that man-to-man defense, leading to mismatches that any savvy coach/guard braintrust can exploit (eg. Budenholzer/Teague in the ATL game; JKidd/Knight in the Bucks tilt). Nene manages to challenge and recover while playing both the drive and the pass, and give our guards time to catch up. Our guards get used to that. Nene gets a booboo on his footsie wootsie. Suddenly our defense sucks.

Compounded by the fact that Ariza isn't here to slow down that ball handler in the first place if they threaten to go off and John stays lazy and okay we're gonna be torched by tier-B perimeter players until John stops being lazy on defense and uses that speed to stick with them and gets strong enough -- tough enough-- not to be scared of the pick man.

I missed this when doc originally posted it. Awesome post, particularly in regards to how Nene helps the team so much despite lackluster box score numbers.
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Re: The Problem that is Nene 

Post#115 » by dckingsfan » Mon Dec 15, 2014 2:07 pm

nate33 wrote:
doclinkin wrote:The chief problem with Nene is an ironic one: he is so good at pick and roll defense that he makes our defense worse. Or leastways we rely on him such that bad habits develop, and when he's gone the squad can no longer get away with the laziness that his presence covers.

The best principle of P&R defense for a guard is to stick with your man, fight through screens and keep in front of him. But with Nene on the court, by positioning alone often he is able to both challenge the Roll man and the Guard after the pick, much as he is also able to box out multiple opponents. He's quick active and large enough to guard a perimeter player long enough to force them to give up the ball or allow the wing defender to pick them up so he can sag back and recover. He has the lively feet and spatial intelligence that many converted soccer players have (Olajuwon, Steve Nash, forgetting others, I had a list once...).

HIs raw stats do not reflect this, because he doesn't work for a block, nor collect the rebound on the missed shot, he simply plays a superior positional defense in the wide arc between the cylinder and the three point line. He patrols that space and makes 'em miss, that's enough. He is not solely playing his man on defense he is playing the angles and positions. Soccer style more than a cornerback sticking to a receiver.

But with Nene out of the game our guards forget they've gotten lazy, and in failing to fight over the pick and dropping under they let their man free for an open shot, which forces slower Bigs to step up to switch on that man-to-man defense, leading to mismatches that any savvy coach/guard braintrust can exploit (eg. Budenholzer/Teague in the ATL game; JKidd/Knight in the Bucks tilt). Nene manages to challenge and recover while playing both the drive and the pass, and give our guards time to catch up. Our guards get used to that. Nene gets a booboo on his footsie wootsie. Suddenly our defense sucks.

Compounded by the fact that Ariza isn't here to slow down that ball handler in the first place if they threaten to go off and John stays lazy and okay we're gonna be torched by tier-B perimeter players until John stops being lazy on defense and uses that speed to stick with them and gets strong enough -- tough enough-- not to be scared of the pick man.

I missed this when doc originally posted it. Awesome post, particularly in regards to how Nene helps the team so much despite lackluster box score numbers.


It is really helping the second unit... defense is where they were struggling. And John's on the ball D on the first unit has been awesome. I hope Nene comes off the bench the rest of the season and gets some games off as well.
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Re: The Problem that is Nene 

Post#116 » by Dat2U » Mon Dec 15, 2014 3:19 pm

nate33 wrote:
doclinkin wrote:The chief problem with Nene is an ironic one: he is so good at pick and roll defense that he makes our defense worse. Or leastways we rely on him such that bad habits develop, and when he's gone the squad can no longer get away with the laziness that his presence covers.

The best principle of P&R defense for a guard is to stick with your man, fight through screens and keep in front of him. But with Nene on the court, by positioning alone often he is able to both challenge the Roll man and the Guard after the pick, much as he is also able to box out multiple opponents. He's quick active and large enough to guard a perimeter player long enough to force them to give up the ball or allow the wing defender to pick them up so he can sag back and recover. He has the lively feet and spatial intelligence that many converted soccer players have (Olajuwon, Steve Nash, forgetting others, I had a list once...).

HIs raw stats do not reflect this, because he doesn't work for a block, nor collect the rebound on the missed shot, he simply plays a superior positional defense in the wide arc between the cylinder and the three point line. He patrols that space and makes 'em miss, that's enough. He is not solely playing his man on defense he is playing the angles and positions. Soccer style more than a cornerback sticking to a receiver.

But with Nene out of the game our guards forget they've gotten lazy, and in failing to fight over the pick and dropping under they let their man free for an open shot, which forces slower Bigs to step up to switch on that man-to-man defense, leading to mismatches that any savvy coach/guard braintrust can exploit (eg. Budenholzer/Teague in the ATL game; JKidd/Knight in the Bucks tilt). Nene manages to challenge and recover while playing both the drive and the pass, and give our guards time to catch up. Our guards get used to that. Nene gets a booboo on his footsie wootsie. Suddenly our defense sucks.

Compounded by the fact that Ariza isn't here to slow down that ball handler in the first place if they threaten to go off and John stays lazy and okay we're gonna be torched by tier-B perimeter players until John stops being lazy on defense and uses that speed to stick with them and gets strong enough -- tough enough-- not to be scared of the pick man.

I missed this when doc originally posted it. Awesome post, particularly in regards to how Nene helps the team so much despite lackluster box score numbers.


This gives some credence to the RPM numbers which show Nene as an elite defender at the PF position:

2013-14: DRPM 4.12 4th PF behind only Garnett, Duncan & Splitter (3 guys that are more like Cs)
2014-15: DRPM 3.03 3rd PF behind only Duncan & ADavis
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Re: The Problem that is Nene 

Post#117 » by McFilthy » Wed Dec 17, 2014 1:42 pm

Thaddeus Young was too quick for our bigs in the third quarter of the T-Wolves game and almost single-handedly kept his team in it. Then Nene came in and gave Thad some problems. Inserting Nene was the perfect counterpunch.
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Re: The Problem that is Nene 

Post#118 » by Ruzious » Wed Dec 17, 2014 4:37 pm

I prefer Nene coming off the bench - like I think everyone else does. But I think the key for the players shouldn't necessarily be who starts, but it should be who's in there in crunch time - when the game is on the line and teams are most focused. And Nene will likely continue to be playing ahead of Hump in those situations.
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Re: The Problem that is Nene 

Post#119 » by PeTBuLL » Sat Jan 10, 2015 3:57 pm

Nene' s the only player on your roster who doesnt have a appreciattion thread, why?

When playoffs come this Wsh. will acomplish nothing without him...
Nenê, brazilan tomahawk!
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Re: The Problem that is Nene 

Post#120 » by deneem4 » Sat Jan 10, 2015 4:55 pm

PeTBuLL wrote:Nene' s the only player on your roster who doesnt have a appreciattion thread, why?

When playoffs come this Wsh. will acomplish nothing without him...


thats the thing...his consistency of being on the floor is low....but hes the 2nd highest paid guy on the roster...we don't live and die with nene like we do with wall...but having him in and out sucks
Pay your beals....or its lights out!!!
Bron, Bosh, Wade is like Mike, Hakeem, barkley...3 top 5 picks from same draft
mike, hakeem and Barkley on the same team!!!!

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