Official Trade Thread - Part XXIX

[Sluggerface]

Wall is overrated compared to Cousins, who I think is underrated.

Attitude issues? He played on well Team USA after Wall and Beal got cut. He hasn't missed a game this season for disciplinary reasons. He's had consecutive triple doubles including assists (Great teammates pass the ball). He's had three straight games with more than 20 rebounds. (Rebounds require effort).

No. Some people repeat tired narratives because they are uninformed or determined to stay a hater. Cousins is an all star and a terrific player. People love Kevin Love and his team never sniffed playoffs.

Offer Nene, Pierce, this year's first and two future firsts. Keep Wall, Beal, and Porter. Keep Gortat.

Overnight the Wizards would be a 60-win team with that core.

Happy to get rid of Nene and to trade Pierce. But 3 first round draft choices? No thank you!

Nor do I think we'd be a 60 win team. Has nothing to do w/ his "attitude", but overall Cousins doesn't put up as good numbers as you suggest, CCJ.

The two key areas for numbers are scoring efficiency (not points scored alone, but points scored *efficiently*) and ball possession numbers (rebounding, especially on the offensive side*, minus turnovers, plus steals).

19 guys play C 30+ minutes per game. Where does he stand among them in these 2 areas?

Scoring Efficiency: only two of the 19 (Nerlens Noel & Noah) have a worse eFG%. In TS% he's a little better at 13th out of 19.

Ball Possession Numbers: Cousins is an excellent defensive rebounder, a meh offensive rebounder, and above all an absolute turnover machine. On average, the other 18 guys on the list turn the ball over 2.13 times per 40 minutes. Cousins does it 5 times. That's way more than twice as often as the other 18 Centers playing 30+ minutes a game. He's actually pretty good at steals, but the numbers are too small in that category to make a difference.

To understand the impact of this, lets compare total offensive rebounds plus steals minus turnovers for DeAndre Jordan and Cousins: Jordan is +5.3 on that combo. Cousins is +0.5. (Jordan also gets more defensive boards than Cousins).

A few other guys: Kanter is +4.4; Chandler is +4; Drummond is +6.3.

DeMarcus Cousins is incredibly gifted. But he doesn't play the game the right way. He likes to handle the ball, make dribble moves while he's away from the bucket, and shoot jump shots. He also fouls more than any of those other 18 guys.

pif, would Cousins handle the ball anywhere near as much on a team with John Wall?

Who else should be making plays on that Kings' roster?

Is it POSSIBLE that Cousins has terrible teammates?

Isn't is also possible with better teammates Cousins would be much more prone to focus on rebounding and defense, rather than forcing shots?

LASTLY, I'm well aware of Cousins' high turnovers, extremely high usage, very high fouls, and his relatively low WS/48. You say his numbers aren't as good as I think. Okay, I will address you in the same manner as you've addressed me.

payitforward, (maybe) you don't know how good his numbers really are.

How do explain this statistic? http://espn.go.com/nba/statistics/rpm/_ ... position/9

You're making the mistake of buying into one statistic instead of using multiple ones to build a complete picture of a player. RPM isn't even close to being a reliable overall stat.

[TheSecretWeapon]

Even with the poor efficiency, Cousins is a good player. But that crummy efficiency really is a drag on his production, though. He's like a lot of talented players -- he'd be GREAT if he'd play a little different. Getting a guy to play different is challenging, however.

If the relationship between Cousins and Wall is actually as wonderful as folks are assuming it to be, I'd trade for Cousins...if the acquisition cost was low enough. He's young, big and talented. Maybe with Wall, he'd play differently. But, I wouldn't mortgage the future for him because I don't know whether he's willing to make the necessary changes to be great.

So far...he's sort of a big man version of Wall. Does lots of "good stuff" and lots of "bad stuff" too. And, the fixes are similar. Cousins needs to either shoot better or change his shot selection to take fewer bad shots (those longs twos). He needs to reduce his turnovers and fouls.

[fishercob]

All things equal (and they never are) would you rather have Cousins or Love?

Edit: My initial inclination is for Love, as he's a bigger upgrade over Nene than Cousins is over Gortat.

[Earth2Ted]

All things equal (and they never are) would you rather have Cousins or Love?

I take Cousins- he's a franchise talent in so many different ways- and one thing that's underrated about him is stamina and durability. Sure he's missed more games this year but his missed games are in some ways exceptions that prove the rule- he missed about 10 games due to freaking viral meningitis - and what does he do his first five games back? 27 and 11 vs the Bucks, 29 and 14 vs the Lakers, 22 and 8 vs GSW, 39 and 11 vs the Knicks, and 24 and 13 vs the Nets.

Love would be tremendous in a lot of ways including his shooting range and passing, but I worry about his durability. I know he's had back issues. If we got him, he'd be out hurt a lot.

I'm with everyone else here that would give up anyone and everyone not named Wall to get DeMarcus Cousins. I have a feeling they are going to end up together at some point- I just hope it is in DC.

[Induveca]

All things equal (and they never are) would you rather have Cousins or Love?

Edit: My initial inclination is for Love, as he's a bigger upgrade over Nene than Cousins is over Gortat.

Cousins all day everyday. The guy is still just scraping the surface of his potential and his numbers are already eye-popping. His best friend is Wall, it's an ideal situation. They've both openly hoped for the opportunity to happen "one day" for years now. Beal and Porter are on the menu, no questions asked if I'm GM. Everyone is available except Wall.

[Chocolate City Jordanaire]

Wall has had veterans with much playoff experience around him. Ariza, Nene, Gortat, Pierce, Miller. Who has Cousins played with? Collison was injured. Gay is about the only decent teammate he has had.

Kobe didn't deserve the votes. His being named is no reflection on Cousins, who can't overcome haters such as yourself. Triple doubles and twenty rebound performances mean nothing to you because of your agenda.

You are forgetting Cousins had Isaiah Thomas who is probably the sixth man of the year this year. Yea Cousins didn't have much talent around him and I wouldn't expect him to make the playoffs but at least contend for a spot. And for such a great player not to break the 30 win mark in his entire career with his team is telling. He's not that great. Look at what Anthony Davis is doing this year with a not so good roster in New Orleans. Look what Wall was able to do when he returned from injury in 2012-2013 season. We would've made the playoffs that year if Wall was healthy as we pretty much played .500 ball when he returned the court. Even Kevin Love was able to carry his team to respectability and have 40+ win seasons albeit still not making the playoffs in his last few seasons with the Wolves. Cousins is just not the type of player you blow up the roster for.

I never posted blow up the roster. In fact, I posted keep Wall, Beal, Porter, and Gortat.

I said trade picks, Nene, Pierce, and whomever else the Kings want.

[Chocolate City Jordanaire]

Wall has had veterans with much playoff experience around him. Ariza, Nene, Gortat, Pierce, Miller. Who has Cousins played with? Collison was injured. Gay is about the only decent teammate he has had.

Kobe didn't deserve the votes. His being named is no reflection on Cousins, who can't overcome haters such as yourself. Triple doubles and twenty rebound performances mean nothing to you because of your agenda.

Is that your default when you get proven wrong? Resort to calling people a hater? Ok CCJ, whatever you say. I'll let Cousins disappointing career speak for itself, while you continue to scream at the "haters" from your soapbox.

102 wins - 210 losses....that is Cousins' record as an NBA player.

I should not have name called. I apologize.

I think you are very wrong and we will end our interaction there.

Feel free to put me on your ignore list, TGW.

[Chocolate City Jordanaire]

Wall has had veterans with much playoff experience around him. Ariza, Nene, Gortat, Pierce, Miller. Who has Cousins played with? Collison was injured. Gay is about the only decent teammate he has had.

Kobe didn't deserve the votes. His being named is no reflection on Cousins, who can't overcome haters such as yourself. Triple doubles and twenty rebound performances mean nothing to you because of your agenda.

CCJ

Why waste your time trying to reason with people who have no interest in reasoning or having an honest debate.

I'm sure you will find plenty of posters that will have an honest debate with you.

You are right. Thanks.

[Chocolate City Jordanaire]

Good data on Cousins PIFF. And that's the issue. ...

Could he be molded into an efficient player ... That's the question.

...it would most likely happen while paired with Wall. ... So the data ...is backward looking as data always is. What we would need to evaluate and project is, what would he do if he was here.

...Cousins with Wall is a Cousins I'm not sure any other team would get. But its the Cousins we would get. That's important to remember. ... I can see how it would work out ....

Hands -- I excerpted for simplicity in addressing what you say.

Yup, all data is backward-looking! And any human being is capable of surprising you! But, it's hard to find examples of guys whose overall game changed as radically as Cousins' game would have to change to realize that hope.

Doesn't mean it couldn't happen, but it certainly does mean that it's a long shot, and therefore a very risky bet. And especially because Cousins is a) expensive and b) over-rated (i.e. likely to command bigger and bigger dollars).

In other words, there's no reliable "project(ion of)... what he would do... here" if you mean what he'd do *different.* You can hope for something, and you can have a picture in your mind. But neither of those is known for working out at a high rate!

YMMV, but I take a pass on DeMarcus Cousins -- despite his enormous gifts.

I can respect that.

Much better to pass on a player than to do as the Wizards did when they drafted Rice and invested a season and the start of another to then pass.

[Chocolate City Jordanaire]

I think the real issue is what it would cost to get Cousins - if he were really available. And I gotta wonder why they would settle for 3 late firsts and 2 guys way over the hill - especially when they probably wouldn't use the cap space once they get it. I would think they'd insist on a prime asset to be included - such as a high lotto pick and a quality young player - and there would be teams that would offer that. We definitely have no chance to get him for Nene, Pierce, and 3 late firsts. If we did, I'd do in less than a heartbeat.

Honestly, I think that could get him.

The Kings might draft Karl Anthony Towns or Jahlil Okafor. They have Rudy Gay. Those guys will need veterans who have playoff toughness and experience.

Three firsts, plus HOF performer, plus a player who Karl loves (and who is also a fellow cancer survivor)--Ruz, that's what I would offer.

[Chocolate City Jordanaire]

The other thing is the center has got to be the leader of the defense and be willing to do the dirty work inside. That's something Gortat has done that goes under-appreciated. Cousins, with no Nene or Gortat to lead him and cover for him scares me. He is very inconsistent with his effort and his focus. He needs somebody to keep him accountable and pick up his slack when he goes into one of his phases and just checks out.

Scares me, too.

[Chocolate City Jordanaire]

Whatever they want, minus Wall, is fine with me.

Porter, Nene and 1st's? Done deal.

Beal, Gortat? Done deal.

Anything and everything is a-okay with me. We need a major talent infusion. I've always been of the opinion that you put your superstars in place first and worry about EVERYTHING else later. Get Wall and Cousins on the same team and worry about building around them later.

I think you have to worry about Cousins first and foremost. That guy is a destabilizing element and selling out the foundation of winning we've actually managed to claw out to get him and Wall on the same team is not a good idea IMO. His total lack of leadership qualities is scary and reflected in his team's awful W/L record since they drafted him. Sacramento has been trying to build around him for five years now and he's proven he is simply not that guy.

Your foundation players must be leaders to win. That makes him a complimentary piece, and teams that treat him like he is the foundation are going to be in trouble. That's why I'd only add him to our team when a strong foundation of leadership and a winning culture is already in place.

Plenty of players get labeled cancers but few actually are. I attribute Sacramento's terrible record with him to the fact that they have done a terrible job building around him. Who is the most talented player he's ever played with? Rudy Gay? Isaiah Thomas? Tyreke Evans? That's downright awful.

Cousins is an excellent player who has the potential to get even better. Point guard and center are the two most important positions in basketball and we'd have both covered with superstar talent.

I met Zach Randolph in 2002, and people were calling him a cancer then.

At Pete Newell's Big Man Camp I told Zach Randolph I thought he would be an all star some day.

Cousins is an even more talented, arguably better player.

[Ruzious]

I'm on board with what Induveca and Miller are saying. They're seeing the big picture on this. Gortat's playing well now, and his trade value is never going to increase after this offseason - and it could go down very quickly. Beal is our only highly valued young guy that will be appealing in a trade (other than Wall who's untouchable). I think it makes sense to include both Beal and Gortat - and take back McLemore since he plays Beal's position - and have the Wiz throw in their 2016 1st. Throw in Porter if need be. Again, that trade actually saves cap space for 2016 free agency acquisitions because Beal's cap hit increases dramatically.

Btw, I still want to use the MLE on Alexis Ajinca.

[hands11]

Good data on Cousins PIFF. And that's the issue. ...

Could he be molded into an efficient player ... That's the question.

...it would most likely happen while paired with Wall. ... So the data ...is backward looking as data always is. What we would need to evaluate and project is, what would he do if he was here.

...Cousins with Wall is a Cousins I'm not sure any other team would get. But its the Cousins we would get. That's important to remember. ... I can see how it would work out ....

Hands -- I excerpted for simplicity in addressing what you say.

Yup, all data is backward-looking! And any human being is capable of surprising you! But, it's hard to find examples of guys whose overall game changed as radically as Cousins' game would have to change to realize that hope.

Doesn't mean it couldn't happen, but it certainly does mean that it's a long shot, and therefore a very risky bet. And especially because Cousins is a) expensive and b) over-rated (i.e. likely to command bigger and bigger dollars).

In other words, there's no reliable "project(ion of)... what he would do... here" if you mean what he'd do *different.* You can hope for something, and you can have a picture in your mind. But neither of those is known for working out at a high rate!

YMMV, but I take a pass on DeMarcus Cousins -- despite his enormous gifts.

Vetted to a mature decision. So dating or marring the really hot looking girl that doesn't have the other stuff isn't the win people would expect. Specially if you have to give up to much to do it.

I suspect along with the not doing this now would be to monitor his progress and know there is also likely a opportunity down the road to add him anyway.

Should be interesting to read more or the pros and cons of Cousins and trade ideas.

[hands11]

I think the real issue is what it would cost to get Cousins - if he were really available. And I gotta wonder why they would settle for 3 late firsts and 2 guys way over the hill - especially when they probably wouldn't use the cap space once they get it. I would think they'd insist on a prime asset to be included - such as a high lotto pick and a quality young player - and there would be teams that would offer that. We definitely have no chance to get him for Nene, Pierce, and 3 late firsts. If we did, I'd do in less than a heartbeat.

Honestly, I think that could get him.

The Kings might draft Karl Anthony Towns or Jahlil Okafor. They have Rudy Gay. Those guys will need veterans who have playoff toughness and experience.

Three firsts, plus HOF performer, plus a player who Karl loves (and who is also a fellow cancer survivor)--Ruz, that's what I would offer.

But again. PP is a player option. Why would he want to do that ? I doubt this franchise would force that on him and I don't think he would choice it so its hard to be to see his name listed in the package because I don't see that as an option.

[Chocolate City Jordanaire]

That package won't happen. Yeah, they won't trade Pierce like that.

[gambitx777]

Boggie is probably going to get traded. a wall/Boogie reunion could be the best thing ever! But NENE PP and a few firsts won't do it.
I feel like you need to go all out and say here
Beal, Gortat, 2016 first/2017 Second/ 2018 first, all unprotected.

It makes sense for both teams, Boggie is not going to want to stick around in that mess for long. Gortat gives them a relevant center, a young guard (Beal and MaClemore would be a nice tag team) and 2 firsts and a second. it makes sense for them. it's also a fair offer.

For us we bring wall back together with one of his best friends. Wall and Boogie together could be amazing. We will miss beal, But we can replace him. We can use our 2015 pick on a 2 like RJ Hunter, Heild, or Booker. We can bring over Thomas. It's likely we end up bringing in dez wells, since Wall and Wells are besties. Or we can sign a stop gap 2 but we can make do! Maybe work some pick shifting magic and pick up an extra 2015 first and big up a 2 and a big.

Fact is Boogie to DC makes too much sense and we have the pieces to make it happen!

[TheSecretWeapon]

Hmm -- I'm looking at my "real trade value" invention (I'll put it up in the blog after the Wizards season ends), and Cousins' trade value doesn't look overwhelmingly high despite his youth. My approach estimates that Beal and Gortat combined have more trade value than Cousins. Giving up two firsts and a second would be a heavy premium to pay for a guy who has potential for greatness, but still is a ways from elite level. If the price is the package gambit theorizing, I'd pass.

[LyricalRico]

Agree with Kev, I'm not giving up firsts in a Cousins trade. If they won't take Gortat+Beal+Porter+2nds for Cousins+McLemore, then I say move on.

What else does Sacto need? Maybe we can involve a third team that might take guys like McLemore/Porter and has something the Kings would want? To the Checker!

[queridiculo]

I like Cousins better, but I'd pick Love over him.

He gives the Wizards more of what they need, and is a much better fit overall.

Love + Gortat > Cousins by far.

With that said, I would also be on board with simply blowing things up, and rebuilding around Wall, Beal and Porter.