WIZ SUMMER LEAGUE 2015

[gtn130]

Even if you think Cousins is better than Wall, you still have to factor in that Cousins has gotten along with one single head coach in his career so far. It's really tough to keep Cousins happy with his coaches and teammates, and that matters a lot.

[pineappleheadindc]

Wizards play their final summer league game tonight at 7 pm Pacific, 10 pm eastern. I'm on a plane headed home. I hope it's televised and I can catch the second half.

[The Consiglieri]

Yeah, they aren't the exact same player, but you're choosing to ignore some pretty clear similarities between their games.

Well, the only similarity you've mentioned thus far is lack of assists. What are the other "pretty clear similarities"? And the high number of shots Oubre has taken don't count, because 1. It's summer league 2. Kelly is the best player and go-to guy on the team.

Well, first of all that similarity is a huge one. Having tunnel vision and being completely unable to pass is a major concern (and is Nick Young's hallmark). Oubre is basically broken on offense at this point. He's 19 and can improve, but there are legitimate concerns with his game. I know it's only Summer League, but in this case Summer League is just reinforcing the knocks on him coming out of college, so it's not as if this is a huge overreaction on my part.

And it's great that he hustles more than Nick Young and all and can rebound well for his position, but I'd like to see this long list of successful NBA wings who legitimately can't pass at all. Maybe Oubre can be told to just stand in the corner and do nothing but shoot corner 3s and go all out on defense, but if that's the case, we aren't getting great value for a #15 pick unless Oubre becomes one of the top ~15 3pt shooters in the league. In general, the expectation that Oubre can simply fall back as an elite 3/D player is insanely misguided. It's not likely at all that he can be elite enough at just 3/D to make him super valuable.

Interested in the concept of small sample size at all? Kind of silly bordering on insane to make these statements, at least to me anyway. The sample size is absurdly small, and you also have no idea what the coaches are asking him to work on in summer league either. We aren't privy to what the coaches want to get out of him in this league, perhaps they want him to work on his offensive game in terms of shooting, and driving, rather than dishing assists to a bunch of future Euro bench filler. I'll grant his assist #'s were horrific, but I don't really care about that, at this point, and I don't think we can know what he's being asked to work on in this tournament, and saying his offensive game is broken, I honestly don't know how to respond to that. That seems borderline crazy to me. Let's see how he plays through the course of two seasons before we throw in the towel on the guy, and definitely wait until at least the summer league is over, to make fundammental pronouncements on what his weaknesses and strengths are.

You need to remember the kid was sitting on the bench for a solid chunk of the season until Self could count on him to play on the defensive end, and once he got serious run, he produced. I do think his offensive game needs work, especially in terms of his half court game, he's pretty fantastic in transition after all, and it's my guess that the team is working him on those area's, asking him to refine those area's of his game. Assists and playmaking are probably, way, way down the totem pole of what the F.O./staff want him to do in July, my guess is get comfortable defending at the pro level, and working on finishing and shooting, especially in the half court game.

You may be on to something, but you're methodology in getting there, finding evidence to support your pre-assessment, without just watching how he plays, and interpreting what the team appears to what him to do suggests to me that it will be pure accident, if you're even right about this down the line, and we have some unholy amalgam of the worst of Nick Young and Jordan Crawford.

[The Consiglieri]

Meh....let's just settle this on the court...1v1 to 11, win by 2. Pick any court in the dmv. I lose I promise not to troll your thought provoking posts. I win, then you have to buy am Oubre summer League jersey and wear it to all wiz games.

haha, so you make troll accounts on realGM to bait people into playing you 1v1 in basketball? You should just join a basketball league or something.

RE: Oubre. I'm rooting for him. I hope I do wear an Oubre jersey one day. The narrative that I'm hating on Oubre is laughable since I'm pretty clearly a Wizards fan. I'd much rather be wrong on a message board and eat crow than Oube be a bust.

Amen to that. I wanted Portis - still think he's the better player and would have been a FAR better fit - but I'll be happy to share the crow. And while SL stats mean nothing and the last game was hard to watch, I was impressed with how hard Oubre played and how willing he was to be the team's on-court leader at both ends of the court.

Just curious, what makes you think Portis will be a better player? Higher floor, lesser liklihood of busting? I love Portis, and wanted him as well, and would have taken him at slot happily and not have traded up (although considering the low cost, I was fine with the trade up). That being said, Oubre is generally regarded by most of these scouts as a raw talent with top 10-14 ability from this class, just about none of them think that of Portis, the vast bulk seem to see him as a guy with a moderately high floor, and a relatively low ceiling, but with the motor and mentality necessary to insure he isn't a bust. I think they're wrong, I think he'll become a good pro, league average, possibly above, if everything went right, and he perfectly filled a need for us to boot, while Oubre didn't which is why I wanted Portis more, but I'll also take solace in the knowledge that we went after a legit prospect with a ton of upside, and unlike past guys like that (say McGee, Blatche, and to a lesser extent Young), with the mentality, and motor necessary to at least reach a solid floor, even if he doesn't pan out at his ceiling.

[gtn130]

Well, the only similarity you've mentioned thus far is lack of assists. What are the other "pretty clear similarities"? And the high number of shots Oubre has taken don't count, because 1. It's summer league 2. Kelly is the best player and go-to guy on the team.

Well, first of all that similarity is a huge one. Having tunnel vision and being completely unable to pass is a major concern (and is Nick Young's hallmark). Oubre is basically broken on offense at this point. He's 19 and can improve, but there are legitimate concerns with his game. I know it's only Summer League, but in this case Summer League is just reinforcing the knocks on him coming out of college, so it's not as if this is a huge overreaction on my part.

And it's great that he hustles more than Nick Young and all and can rebound well for his position, but I'd like to see this long list of successful NBA wings who legitimately can't pass at all. Maybe Oubre can be told to just stand in the corner and do nothing but shoot corner 3s and go all out on defense, but if that's the case, we aren't getting great value for a #15 pick unless Oubre becomes one of the top ~15 3pt shooters in the league. In general, the expectation that Oubre can simply fall back as an elite 3/D player is insanely misguided. It's not likely at all that he can be elite enough at just 3/D to make him super valuable.

Interested in the concept of small sample size at all? Kind of silly bordering on insane to make these statements, at least to me anyway. The sample size is absurdly small, and you also have no idea what the coaches are asking him to work on in summer league either. We aren't privy to what the coaches want to get out of him in this league, perhaps they want him to work on his offensive game in terms of shooting, and driving, rather than dishing assists to a bunch of future Euro bench filler. I'll grant his assist #'s were horrific, but I don't really care about that, at this point, and I don't think we can know what he's being asked to work on in this tournament, and saying his offensive game is broken, I honestly don't know how to respond to that. That seems borderline crazy to me. Let's see how he plays through the course of two seasons before we throw in the towel on the guy, and definitely wait until at least the summer league is over, to make fundammental pronouncements on what his weaknesses and strengths are.

You need to remember the kid was sitting on the bench for a solid chunk of the season until Self could count on him to play on the defensive end, and once he got serious run, he produced. I do think his offensive game needs work, especially in terms of his half court game, he's pretty fantastic in transition after all, and it's my guess that the team is working him on those area's, asking him to refine those area's of his game. Assists and playmaking are probably, way, way down the totem pole of what the F.O./staff want him to do in July, my guess is get comfortable defending at the pro level, and working on finishing and shooting, especially in the half court game.

You may be on to something, but you're methodology in getting there, finding evidence to support your pre-assessment, without just watching how he plays, and interpreting what the team appears to what him to do suggests to me that it will be pure accident, if you're even right about this down the line, and we have some unholy amalgam of the worst of Nick Young and Jordan Crawford.

The sample size is obviously small on Oubre.

But I'm here giving my opinion on Oubre as a prospect with awareness of the lack of information. If we shouldn't be speculating about Oubre, we should lock the thread ASAP and maybe shut down the message board as well just to be safe. People assume I'm speaking with absolute certainty about outcomes, when I'm not. Reality is that there's a range of possibilities for Oubre -- some of them involve him being a complete bust and others involve him being really good. But some segment of that range is more likely to come to fruition than the rest. My opinion is that on average, Oubre won't be that good based on the incomplete data we have on him.

Not sure why this fires everyone up so much.

[manifested]

For those who've been able to watch the Summer League games, would you say the staff is clearly focusing on Oubre? Seems like he's getting a lot of shots, but is that more because he's a gunner, because he doesn't pass, or they are trying to run the offense to/through him to get him experience?

Context is always tough in Summer League. Trying to get a feel for the kind of role Oubre has in these games. Still a bit surprised at his awful shooting numbers from outside though.

[Ruzious]

haha, so you make troll accounts on realGM to bait people into playing you 1v1 in basketball? You should just join a basketball league or something.

RE: Oubre. I'm rooting for him. I hope I do wear an Oubre jersey one day. The narrative that I'm hating on Oubre is laughable since I'm pretty clearly a Wizards fan. I'd much rather be wrong on a message board and eat crow than Oube be a bust.

Amen to that. I wanted Portis - still think he's the better player and would have been a FAR better fit - but I'll be happy to share the crow. And while SL stats mean nothing and the last game was hard to watch, I was impressed with how hard Oubre played and how willing he was to be the team's on-court leader at both ends of the court.

Just curious, what makes you think Portis will be a better player? Higher floor, lesser liklihood of busting? I love Portis, and wanted him as well, and would have taken him at slot happily and not have traded up (although considering the low cost, I was fine with the trade up). That being said, Oubre is generally regarded by most of these scouts as a raw talent with top 10-14 ability from this class, just about none of them think that of Portis, the vast bulk seem to see him as a guy with a moderately high floor, and a relatively low ceiling, but with the motor and mentality necessary to insure he isn't a bust. I think they're wrong, I think he'll become a good pro, league average, possibly above, if everything went right, and he perfectly filled a need for us to boot, while Oubre didn't which is why I wanted Portis more, but I'll also take solace in the knowledge that we went after a legit prospect with a ton of upside, and unlike past guys like that (say McGee, Blatche, and to a lesser extent Young), with the mentality, and motor necessary to at least reach a solid floor, even if he doesn't pan out at his ceiling.

Guys, we really need to stop relying so heavily on what people generally regard - when it comes to prospects. It gets awfully boring when people are just basing their views on whatever the majority of "experts" think. I like Oubre, I like Portis better - for the reasons I've stated several times. NBA people and internet scouts do get it wrong sometimes, so just because someone slides in the draft, it doesn't mean they should have slid in the draft.

[The Consiglieri]

I have to admit that a CCJ re-draft from 2010 sounds interesting depending on what the other asset the Wizards get.

Here's who I believe he liked at the time during each draft

2010- Cousins
2011- Faried
2012- Lillard/Barton?
2013- Noel/Wolters
2014- (you're going to have to fill me in here)
2015- Oubre

I honestly would have picked:

2010 - Wall/Seraphin*/Booker*
2011 - Kawhi/Faried
2012 - Beal
2013 - Noel
2015 - Portis

I don't consider myself a draft guru. I picked those guys based mostly on the opinions of draftexpress, Dat2U, Ruzious and YODA. IIRC, we got the Seraphin pick just before the draft so there really wasn't a board consensus on who to pick at #15. I was pretty pleased with the Seraphin pick after hearing about it - same with Booker.

2010: Wall/Seraphim/w/trade up my guy would have been Quincy Pondexter

2011: Picks: Leonard, Faried, Honeycutt:

Funny draft, I was really high on Kantner and Valunciunas, would have drafted Leonard at slot, hated the Morris twins (especially Marcus), and loved the mid-late first where I thought there was huge value in Faried, Harris, Singleton, Motiejunas, Mirotic, Marshon Brooks, and Jimmy Butler (I actually liked him, a lot). My second rounder would have been Tyler Honeycutt, whoops.

2012: Bradley Beal: The guys I most wanted: #1 Davis #2 MKG #3 Beal #4 Drummond. We are saved when MKG is picked ahead of our slot!

2013: My top 3: #1 Nerlens Noel #2 Victor Oladipo #3 Anthony Bennett:

Good news: I loved Noel, Oladipo, Giannis, and Gobert

Bad News: I hated Porter, and preferred Bennett, also didn't like Len,

Like 2012, we're in luck, because the guy i didn't even think would be there, falls to us, while I guy I wanted and who ended up awful, went before us.

2nd Rounder: Quincy Miller

2014:

I wouldn't have done the Gortat trade, as a result, our pick would have likely been somewhere between 5th and 12th:

My fav guys in that zone (assuming we didn't move up:

1. Exum
2. Randle
3. Smart
4. Saric
5. Young
6. McGary
7. Payne
8. Harris

Not sure how i'd rank the last four guys.

So if changes in selections didn't change results (which ain't true, but for the sake of the fun of projecting choices):

2010:
Wall, Seraphin, Pondexter

2011:
Leonard, Faried, Honeycutt

2012:
Beal, Q. Miller

2013:
N. Noel, Tony Mitchell (though I definitely would have mortgaged a ton of picks and assets to try and move up for Gobert when he fell 10-12 slots lower than I expected)

2014:
No way to really project all that accurately

2015:
Portis, Cliff Alexander
, GRIII

[The Consiglieri]

Amen to that. I wanted Portis - still think he's the better player and would have been a FAR better fit - but I'll be happy to share the crow. And while SL stats mean nothing and the last game was hard to watch, I was impressed with how hard Oubre played and how willing he was to be the team's on-court leader at both ends of the court.

Just curious, what makes you think Portis will be a better player? Higher floor, lesser liklihood of busting? I love Portis, and wanted him as well, and would have taken him at slot happily and not have traded up (although considering the low cost, I was fine with the trade up). That being said, Oubre is generally regarded by most of these scouts as a raw talent with top 10-14 ability from this class, just about none of them think that of Portis, the vast bulk seem to see him as a guy with a moderately high floor, and a relatively low ceiling, but with the motor and mentality necessary to insure he isn't a bust. I think they're wrong, I think he'll become a good pro, league average, possibly above, if everything went right, and he perfectly filled a need for us to boot, while Oubre didn't which is why I wanted Portis more, but I'll also take solace in the knowledge that we went after a legit prospect with a ton of upside, and unlike past guys like that (say McGee, Blatche, and to a lesser extent Young), with the mentality, and motor necessary to at least reach a solid floor, even if he doesn't pan out at his ceiling.

Guys, we really need to stop relying so heavily on what people generally regard - when it comes to prospects. It gets awfully boring when people are just basing their views on whatever the majority of "experts" think. I like Oubre, I like Portis better - for the reasons I've stated several times. NBA people and internet scouts do get it wrong sometimes, so just because someone slides in the draft, it doesn't mean they should have slid in the draft.

Of course they do, but I'm curious about what you see in terms of Portis likely developmental Trajectory, you like him more than Oubre, so you see him as a better prospect, higher floor, or maybe a higher ceiling etc, I'm curious what you think.

As for relying on experts, I think it's important to consult experts for their views, I dont base anything on it in particular other than projections, for instance, while I love the Redskins GM, I think the selection of Scherrf was a catastropic and moronic decision, horrifically bad. Just horrible. Literally the only guy projected to go top 10 that I absolutely wanted no part of, so of course the redskins reached for the overrated glorified guard prospect that they then annoited their RT, because they need a RT, not because Scherrf actually projects to be a good one. Anyway, I'm curious what you see Portis being as an NBA player five years from now.

[Chocolate City Jordanaire]

Fair enough. Nice response, stevemcqueen1.

No need for me to ignore you or vice versa. My posts on Oubre are definitely overstated. He's only 19. I wouldn't react viscerally to my posts, but I think you are certainly welcome to.

I definitely don't ignore you. I can tell you know the game. That's probably why I singled you out despite the fact tons of people post crazy trade ideas all the time. I'm betting I have too, if I cared to peek under the rock of my posting history. I realize it comes out snarky after the fact, and I do apologize for that. But it actually comes from a place of respect. I have an opinionated personality and, in every forum where I've become a regular, I get into knock down drag out arguments with most of the other regulars at some point. In 2011, I think I nearly got myself run out on a rail at a Redskins forum because of my harshly negative criticism of Cam Newton as a prospect. And I ended up being wrong too. But I enjoy heated debate because it's one of the best ways I get motivated and it forces me to sharpen my understanding of the topic.

Ernie Grunfeld screwed up the 2011 draft about as badly as humanly possible...

steve, I appreciate your candor and welcome any and all spirited debate. I definitely will be wrong at times.

[Chocolate City Jordanaire]

I have to admit that a CCJ re-draft from 2010 sounds interesting depending on what the other asset the Wizards get.

Here's who I believe he liked at the time during each draft

2010- Cousins
2011- Faried
2012- Lillard/Barton?
2013- Noel/Wolters
2014- (you're going to have to fill me in here)
2015- Oubre

I honestly would have picked:

2010 - Wall/Seraphin*/Booker*
2011 - Kawhi/Faried
2012 - Beal
2013 - Noel
2015 - Portis

I don't consider myself a draft guru. I picked those guys based mostly on the opinions of draftexpress, Dat2U, Ruzious and YODA. IIRC, we got the Seraphin pick just before the draft so there really wasn't a board consensus on who to pick at #15. I was pretty pleased with the Seraphin pick after hearing about it - same with Booker.

2010: Wall/Seraphim/w/trade up my guy would have been Quincy Pondexter

2011: Picks: Leonard, Faried, Honeycutt:

Funny draft, I was really high on Kantner and Valunciunas, would have drafted Leonard at slot, hated the Morris twins (especially Marcus), and loved the mid-late first where I thought there was huge value in Faried, Harris, Singleton, Motiejunas, Mirotic, Marshon Brooks, and Jimmy Butler (I actually liked him, a lot). My second rounder would have been Tyler Honeycutt, whoops.

2012: Bradley Beal: The guys I most wanted: #1 Davis #2 MKG #3 Beal #4 Drummond. We are saved when MKG is picked ahead of our slot!

2013: My top 3: #1 Nerlens Noel #2 Victor Oladipo #3 Anthony Bennett:

Good news: I loved Noel, Oladipo, Giannis, and Gobert

Bad News: I hated Porter, and preferred Bennett, also didn't like Len,

Like 2012, we're in luck, because the guy i didn't even think would be there, falls to us, while I guy I wanted and who ended up awful, went before us.

2nd Rounder: Quincy Miller

2014:

I wouldn't have done the Gortat trade, as a result, our pick would have likely been somewhere between 5th and 12th:

My fav guys in that zone (assuming we didn't move up:

1. Exum
2. Randle
3. Smart
4. Saric
5. Young
6. McGary
7. Payne
8. Harris

Not sure how i'd rank the last four guys.

So if changes in selections didn't change results (which ain't true, but for the sake of the fun of projecting choices):

2010:
Wall, Seraphin, Pondexter

2011:
Leonard, Faried, Honeycutt

2012:
Beal, Q. Miller

2013:
N. Noel, Tony Mitchell (though I definitely would have mortgaged a ton of picks and assets to try and move up for Gobert when he fell 10-12 slots lower than I expected)

2014:
No way to really project all that accurately

2015:
Portis, Cliff Alexander
, GRIII

Hey, I like LEONARD on draft night, too. I wanted Kawhi and Kenneth Faried, because I know Faried would be available with the latter pick.

Yes, I did say trade down and get Lillard plus, instead of just Beal.

In 2013, I wasn't so stellar. I wanted to trade down for Olynyk and another pick. I also liked Cody Zeller. I was skeptical of Noel's injuries. I didn't know as much about ACL injuries. (some here have since educated me). I did think Porter was a good, safe pick. I HATED Bennett FWIW.

[80sballboy]

Oubre with a nice start against Denver. Has 7 points including a 3. Game tied at 14-14.

[80sballboy]

Kelly with 20 points, on 7-of-12 shooting late in the third quarter. No assists of course.

[closg00]

Pech is getting his buckets tonight...finally.

[80sballboy]

Pecherov has 19 points in 13 minutes.

[closg00]

Where is Famous? We are getting abused by Stewie

[80sballboy]

Famous hasn't played tonight. Probably best that he sits because he was wearing down. Maybe Aaron White's been defending him.

[80sballboy]

Oubre now with 27 points on 4 of 6 from 3-point range.

[Kanyewest]

Oubre now with 27 points on 4 of 6 from 3-point range.

Yeah, may be the best Wizards' summer league performance of all time, at least that I can remember by a rookie.

[closg00]

Oubre vs Pecherov tonight