Last post in the old thread --
thricethefun wrote:KD ain't winning **** in OKC. Come home and play with a real pg
Moderators: LyricalRico, nate33, montestewart
thricethefun wrote:KD ain't winning **** in OKC. Come home and play with a real pg
nate33 wrote:Will Durant come here just so he doesn't have to see Curry so often?
[youtube]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x2AXDDRDdy0[/youtube]
FAH1223 wrote:Westbrook is way better than Wall
KD ain't ever coming here
pcbothwel wrote:I think we all agree that Kobe > Jason Kidd,
TheSecretWeapon wrote:pcbothwel wrote:I think we all agree that Kobe > Jason Kidd,
I wouldn't agree with that.
In terms of career accomplishments, Kobe was fortunate to play for one of the best franchises in the league. He got to play with Shaq and then with Pau Gasol, two of the better big men around. Kobe was never the leading producer on a title team. He was a terrific player who had one of the all-time great careers, but his reputation and accolades surpassed his actual on-court performance.
Looking at Kidd vs. Kobe, they're fairly comparable in a lot of ways. Kidd played 21 seasons; Kobe 20. Kidd had 50,111 regular season minutes; Kobe will end up with nearly 49,000. Kidd comes out slightly ahead in PPA with a 167 to Kobe's 160.
Kidd peaked slightly higher -- a 208 to Kobe's 200. Kidd had two seasons better than Kobe's peak. If I sort by PPA to get best season for each so that I'm comparing Kidd's best season to Kobe's best season, Kidd's 2nd best season to Kobe's 2nd best season, and so on, Kidd comes out ahead in 19 of 20 seasons. Kobe's 5th best season was a PPA of 185, which was slightly better than Kidd's 180. Season by season, they're fairly comparable through their top 13 seasons.
Looking back at the chronological sort, Kidd didn't have the rough start Kobe did. And, Kidd didn't have the horror tail of his career like Kobe has had. Kobe has five seasons (his first two and last three) worse than Kidd's worst.
If I throw out Kobe's five worst seasons, he edges ahead of Kidd 172-167. If I do the same for Kidd, he moves back ahead.
I do agree with your conclusion, though -- anyone sane would prefer playing with Kidd than Kobe. That said, who do you think is averaging more assists per 100 team possessions this season: Wall or Westbrook?
The answer:Spoiler:
Bickerstaff: who's up for kickball?!!
Ed Wood: Only if it's the no-pants variety.
pcbothwel wrote:FAH1223 wrote:Westbrook is way better than Wall
KD ain't ever coming here
Odd time to make that comment. Westbrook just went 8-24 (33%) last night while Durant was 11-17 (65%). You think Wall would shoot it 24 times when KD is on his team and shooting 65%? Not a chance.
MyUniBroDavis wrote: he was like YALL PEOPLE WHO DOUBT ME WILL SEE YALLS STATS ARE WRONG I HAVE THE BIG BRAIN PLAYS MUCHO NASTY BIG BRAIN BIG CHUNGUS BRAIN YOU BOYS ON UR BBALL REFERENCE NO UNDERSTANDO
Rafael122 wrote:TheSecretWeapon wrote:pcbothwel wrote:I think we all agree that Kobe > Jason Kidd,
I wouldn't agree with that.
In terms of career accomplishments, Kobe was fortunate to play for one of the best franchises in the league. He got to play with Shaq and then with Pau Gasol, two of the better big men around. Kobe was never the leading producer on a title team. He was a terrific player who had one of the all-time great careers, but his reputation and accolades surpassed his actual on-court performance.
Looking at Kidd vs. Kobe, they're fairly comparable in a lot of ways. Kidd played 21 seasons; Kobe 20. Kidd had 50,111 regular season minutes; Kobe will end up with nearly 49,000. Kidd comes out slightly ahead in PPA with a 167 to Kobe's 160.
Kidd peaked slightly higher -- a 208 to Kobe's 200. Kidd had two seasons better than Kobe's peak. If I sort by PPA to get best season for each so that I'm comparing Kidd's best season to Kobe's best season, Kidd's 2nd best season to Kobe's 2nd best season, and so on, Kidd comes out ahead in 19 of 20 seasons. Kobe's 5th best season was a PPA of 185, which was slightly better than Kidd's 180. Season by season, they're fairly comparable through their top 13 seasons.
Looking back at the chronological sort, Kidd didn't have the rough start Kobe did. And, Kidd didn't have the horror tail of his career like Kobe has had. Kobe has five seasons (his first two and last three) worse than Kidd's worst.
If I throw out Kobe's five worst seasons, he edges ahead of Kidd 172-167. If I do the same for Kidd, he moves back ahead.
I do agree with your conclusion, though -- anyone sane would prefer playing with Kidd than Kobe. That said, who do you think is averaging more assists per 100 team possessions this season: Wall or Westbrook?
The answer:Spoiler:
I bet Rondo averages more than Wall too yes?
TheSecretWeapon wrote:Rafael122 wrote:TheSecretWeapon wrote:I wouldn't agree with that.
In terms of career accomplishments, Kobe was fortunate to play for one of the best franchises in the league. He got to play with Shaq and then with Pau Gasol, two of the better big men around. Kobe was never the leading producer on a title team. He was a terrific player who had one of the all-time great careers, but his reputation and accolades surpassed his actual on-court performance.
Looking at Kidd vs. Kobe, they're fairly comparable in a lot of ways. Kidd played 21 seasons; Kobe 20. Kidd had 50,111 regular season minutes; Kobe will end up with nearly 49,000. Kidd comes out slightly ahead in PPA with a 167 to Kobe's 160.
Kidd peaked slightly higher -- a 208 to Kobe's 200. Kidd had two seasons better than Kobe's peak. If I sort by PPA to get best season for each so that I'm comparing Kidd's best season to Kobe's best season, Kidd's 2nd best season to Kobe's 2nd best season, and so on, Kidd comes out ahead in 19 of 20 seasons. Kobe's 5th best season was a PPA of 185, which was slightly better than Kidd's 180. Season by season, they're fairly comparable through their top 13 seasons.
Looking back at the chronological sort, Kidd didn't have the rough start Kobe did. And, Kidd didn't have the horror tail of his career like Kobe has had. Kobe has five seasons (his first two and last three) worse than Kidd's worst.
If I throw out Kobe's five worst seasons, he edges ahead of Kidd 172-167. If I do the same for Kidd, he moves back ahead.
I do agree with your conclusion, though -- anyone sane would prefer playing with Kidd than Kobe. That said, who do you think is averaging more assists per 100 team possessions this season: Wall or Westbrook?
The answer:Spoiler:
I bet Rondo averages more than Wall too yes?
Yep. Also Rubio and Chris Paul.
Bickerstaff: who's up for kickball?!!
Ed Wood: Only if it's the no-pants variety.
Rafael122 wrote:
Paul I can't argue, not sure on Rubio but it would be really interesting to see how many assists per game Rondo and Russ dish out for shots 10 feet and closer vs. mid range and outside shots. Rondo is a notorious assist padder, literally giving up layups just to hand it to the next guy.
bondom34 wrote:pcbothwel wrote:FAH1223 wrote:Westbrook is way better than Wall
KD ain't ever coming here
Odd time to make that comment. Westbrook just went 8-24 (33%) last night while Durant was 11-17 (65%). You think Wall would shoot it 24 times when KD is on his team and shooting 65%? Not a chance.
FWIW, Wall shot 8-23 while two other starters shot 8-14 and 6-10 vs Toronto just this season. They weren't KD, but not all of Westbrook's minutes are with KD, and now even fewer are that they're staggering.
TheSecretWeapon wrote:
I do agree with your conclusion, though -- anyone sane would prefer playing with Kidd than Kobe. That said, who do you think is averaging more assists per 100 team possessions this season: Wall or Westbrook?
The answer:Spoiler:
Kanyewest wrote:bondom34 wrote:pcbothwel wrote:
Odd time to make that comment. Westbrook just went 8-24 (33%) last night while Durant was 11-17 (65%). You think Wall would shoot it 24 times when KD is on his team and shooting 65%? Not a chance.
FWIW, Wall shot 8-23 while two other starters shot 8-14 and 6-10 vs Toronto just this season. They weren't KD, but not all of Westbrook's minutes are with KD, and now even fewer are that they're staggering.
Still, Westbrook is more likely to have shoot more than Wall. This season, Westbrook has had 15 games with 23 or more shots while Wall has had 9. In one sense, I would expect Westbrook to shoot it more than Wall because Westbrook has been more efficient especially since Westbrook draws more free throw attempts. Still, Westbrook may be holding Durant back given that Westbrook is shooting the ball more than Durant this season (per 36 minutes).
MyUniBroDavis wrote: he was like YALL PEOPLE WHO DOUBT ME WILL SEE YALLS STATS ARE WRONG I HAVE THE BIG BRAIN PLAYS MUCHO NASTY BIG BRAIN BIG CHUNGUS BRAIN YOU BOYS ON UR BBALL REFERENCE NO UNDERSTANDO
TheSecretWeapon wrote:Rafael122 wrote:
Paul I can't argue, not sure on Rubio but it would be really interesting to see how many assists per game Rondo and Russ dish out for shots 10 feet and closer vs. mid range and outside shots. Rondo is a notorious assist padder, literally giving up layups just to hand it to the next guy.
Those numbers exist, and I'll see if I can dig them out.
In the meantime, my pals at NylonCalculus have some interesting stats:
In "scoring usage" (basically how often a player attempts to score vs. overall possessions)
- Westbrook 26.9%
- Durant 25.9%
- Wall 24.1%
"Playmaking usage" -- assist opportunities / possessions AND "playmaking efg" (teammate effective field goal percentage on assist opportunities
- Rondo 28.0% -- .612
- Paul 26.1% -- .623
- Wall 25.5% -- .595
- Rubio 24.8% -- .580
- Westbrook 23.3% -- .633
League leading PGs in playmaking efg
- Patty Mills .678
- Dellavedova .666
- Irving .654
- Lillard .646
- Goodwin .641
Then Lowry, Westbrook, Mudiay (WTF?), Ish, Paul, Curry.
MyUniBroDavis wrote: he was like YALL PEOPLE WHO DOUBT ME WILL SEE YALLS STATS ARE WRONG I HAVE THE BIG BRAIN PLAYS MUCHO NASTY BIG BRAIN BIG CHUNGUS BRAIN YOU BOYS ON UR BBALL REFERENCE NO UNDERSTANDO
TheSecretWeapon wrote:I do agree with your conclusion, though -- anyone sane would prefer playing with Kidd than Kobe. That said, who do you think is averaging more assists per 100 team possessions this season: Wall or Westbrook?
The answer:Spoiler:
pcbothwel wrote:
Dont be fooled about Westbrooks assist numbers. He is explosive and attacks the basket and then may dump it off on Kanter in the last second, but he doesnt play with the vision that Wall, CP3, Curry play with.
bondom34 wrote:Kanyewest wrote:bondom34 wrote:FWIW, Wall shot 8-23 while two other starters shot 8-14 and 6-10 vs Toronto just this season. They weren't KD, but not all of Westbrook's minutes are with KD, and now even fewer are that they're staggering.
Still, Westbrook is more likely to have shoot more than Wall. This season, Westbrook has had 15 games with 23 or more shots while Wall has had 9. In one sense, I would expect Westbrook to shoot it more than Wall because Westbrook has been more efficient especially since Westbrook draws more free throw attempts. Still, Westbrook may be holding Durant back given that Westbrook is shooting the ball more than Durant this season (per 36 minutes).
Per 100 possessions, Wall is taking about 1.5 shots less. Durant's still near leading the league in scoring, and Westbrook sets him up for about 40 percent of his shots. There's no substantive way he's being held back, unless you're expecting a 40 ppg season. And as you said above, Westbrook is overall the superior offensive player by a good margin.
Kanyewest wrote:bondom34 wrote:Kanyewest wrote:
Still, Westbrook is more likely to have shoot more than Wall. This season, Westbrook has had 15 games with 23 or more shots while Wall has had 9. In one sense, I would expect Westbrook to shoot it more than Wall because Westbrook has been more efficient especially since Westbrook draws more free throw attempts. Still, Westbrook may be holding Durant back given that Westbrook is shooting the ball more than Durant this season (per 36 minutes).
Per 100 possessions, Wall is taking about 1.5 shots less. Durant's still near leading the league in scoring, and Westbrook sets him up for about 40 percent of his shots. There's no substantive way he's being held back, unless you're expecting a 40 ppg season. And as you said above, Westbrook is overall the superior offensive player by a good margin.
Durant could be a little better; in his MVP season, he averaged 29.9 ppg per 36 as he was getting to the free throw line 9.3 attempts per 36 and while also taking more field goal attempts. This season Durant has averaged 27.9 ppg per 36 minutes and "only" getting to the free throw line 6.8 per 36.
I wouldn't want Durant to shoot the ball 30 times per game but a couple more attempts per game would probably be more optimal; right now Durant is shooting less per 36 than Steph Curry. It doesn't make sense to me for Westbrook to have more attempts than Durant given that Durant has a higher TS% than Westbrook (63% to 55%). The Thunder are certainly a better team with Westbrook on the court but he still needs to eliminate ill advised shots against the elite teams like Golden State and San Antonio.
I would still say Wall is behind Westbrook in terms of overall efficiency (TS%, getting to the line, rebounding). Although I do wonder how much Wall's efficiency would benefit by playing with Durant.
MyUniBroDavis wrote: he was like YALL PEOPLE WHO DOUBT ME WILL SEE YALLS STATS ARE WRONG I HAVE THE BIG BRAIN PLAYS MUCHO NASTY BIG BRAIN BIG CHUNGUS BRAIN YOU BOYS ON UR BBALL REFERENCE NO UNDERSTANDO