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Direction of the Wizards going forward

Moderators: LyricalRico, nate33, montestewart

Where do we go from here?

The full tank - A painful rebuild over the next 3-4 seasons at minimum.
5
20%
Retool on the fly - Skillfully tank for just the 2016-17 season but risk upsetting your core trio.
9
36%
The Piecemeal option - Use our crap to acquire a more expensive, slightly better than crap player.
2
8%
The Ernie Grunfeld Special - sacrifice a future asset as we go all-in for 2016-17.
3
12%
Stay The Course AKA The Hands11 Theory - “If you read my posts I’ve already talked about this, were fine. Just be patient”
6
24%
 
Total votes: 25

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nate33
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Re: Direction of the Wizards going forward 

Post#61 » by nate33 » Fri Dec 2, 2016 3:46 pm

montestewart wrote:
nate33 wrote:It don't think there's a precedent for a team with a 26-year-old 3-time All-Star and two 23-year-old above-average starters to decide to blow it up and rebuild. Outside of Gortat, this team has at least a 6-year window, if not longer. I agree that it's probably never going to happen with EG at the helm, but that doesn't mean you blow it up. What you do is fire EG.

EG keeps diving through that window like the building's on fire. All his moves in recent years have the look of fear. Call it GrunFear. He panics when quality young players don't translate quickly enough into wins, and so he blows cap space on expensive veterans to get the team to the middle, rather than leveraging cap space toward additional assets that can help in the long term. He panics in the face of an unexpected (to him) injury to a key player or an unexpectedly (to him) bad record, and he trades longer term assets for more short term solutions. He goes all in for forwards, wings, bigs, bench, or whatever position he perceives to be the team's weak point, amassing volumes of such players as if quantity rather than quality is the solution. The injury history of some of his acquisitions probably magnifies that fear. GrunFear.

This is so true.

In the Summer of 2014, we were coming off a year of shoddy PF play and we were about to lose Booker. So EG overreacts and adds 3 power forwards: Pierce, Humphries and Blair to a team that already had Nene, Seraphin and Gooden capable of manning the spot.

In the Summer of 2016, he made the same mistake, only at the center spot. With Nene departing, he spends $21M a year to replace him by adding Mahinmi and Smith.
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Re: Direction of the Wizards going forward 

Post#62 » by The Consiglieri » Fri Dec 2, 2016 7:15 pm

nate33 wrote:It don't think there's a precedent for a team with a 26-year-old 3-time All-Star and two 23-year-old above-average starters to decide to blow it up and rebuild. Outside of Gortat, this team has at least a 6-year window, if not longer. I agree that it's probably never going to happen with EG at the helm, but that doesn't mean you blow it up. What you do is fire EG.


Do you think Wall will resign, or refuse to resign and demand a trade at some point between now and '19? While it's possible he could be one of those guys that's just comfortable in DC and wants to stay, I think it's substantially more likely that at some point between the ages of 26 and 29, he does some real hard thinking and realizes he doesn't want to spend the twilight of his prime playing for a perennial also ran/door mat. Maybe I'm wrong, but I think we need to be proactive while he still has max value. This draft is chock full of point guards with enormous potential. I'd rather do a re-set, and build around them, then stick with a hand that seems destined to lose, to me anyway.

I do agree that there is little if any precedent for this other than maybe the Magic back in the mid-90's, and they didn't trade their assets, they just slowly lost them to better situations and injury.
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Re: Direction of the Wizards going forward 

Post#63 » by deneem4 » Fri Dec 2, 2016 9:20 pm

nate33 wrote:
deneem4 wrote:Wall can make any capable big man work in the pick and roll

I don't think this is true at all. I continue to be surprised at how Gortat is underappreciated on these boards. He is a fantastic pick-and-roll center with great hands and great touch around the rim. I can't name 3 centers in the league who are better at pick and roll.


But he's incrediblely soft around the rim...
Rarely finishes thru contact
Doesnt kick out as often as he should when the defense collapse
And he's not a consistent pick and pop option when the defense slips....

Example: with nene he always attacked strong for the dunk or would swing it to the corner man occasionally...he never tried to avoid contact eithrr....he was a bad ft shooter but when he rolled he either draw a foul or scored...

Gortat isn't bad but I would sacrifice those hands and that touch for some toughness and athleticism from the center postion...
U cant teach that and that's 1 thing we solely lack downlown
Pay your beals....or its lights out!!!
Bron, Bosh, Wade is like Mike, Hakeem, barkley...3 top 5 picks from same draft
mike, hakeem and Barkley on the same team!!!!
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Re: Direction of the Wizards going forward 

Post#64 » by payitforward » Fri Dec 2, 2016 9:45 pm

nate33 wrote:It don't think there's a precedent for a team with a 26-year-old 3-time All-Star and two 23-year-old above-average starters to decide to blow it up and rebuild. Outside of Gortat, this team has at least a 6-year window, if not longer. I agree that it's probably never going to happen with EG at the helm, but that doesn't mean you blow it up. What you do is fire EG.

This makes sense to me. If -- and it's a big "if" -- Beal continues to improve and really does establish himself as one of the league's best SGs.

Especially because, even with that, we aren't going to post much of a record this year and will almost certainly have a lottery pick. Which brings up the other "if" -- or, better, call it a "when" instead.

When Ernie is gone, and we have a new GM (chosen well), then this makes sense. Until then, frankly, nothing makes sense. Alas, I don't see Ernie as capable of any set of moves that takes advantage of, and extends, that multi-year window.
Breaking News: In a shocking development, Wizards owner Ted Leonsis has sold the NBA franchise to a consortium of participants in a discussion board devoted to the team on realgm.com. Details to follow....
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Re: Direction of the Wizards going forward 

Post#65 » by deneem4 » Fri Dec 2, 2016 9:55 pm

We are going to play the playoffs I will make bets with anyone about that
Pay your beals....or its lights out!!!
Bron, Bosh, Wade is like Mike, Hakeem, barkley...3 top 5 picks from same draft
mike, hakeem and Barkley on the same team!!!!
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Re: Direction of the Wizards going forward 

Post#66 » by dandridge 10 » Fri Dec 2, 2016 10:01 pm

deneem4 wrote:We are going to play the playoffs I will make bets with anyone about that


In the next 10 years, maybe. This year? I will take that bet.
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Re: Direction of the Wizards going forward 

Post#67 » by AFM » Fri Dec 2, 2016 10:18 pm

Loser has to do a drug, of PIFs choosing, with PIF and record the experience for the board
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Re: Direction of the Wizards going forward 

Post#68 » by deneem4 » Fri Dec 2, 2016 10:38 pm

dandridge 10 wrote:
deneem4 wrote:We are going to play the playoffs I will make bets with anyone about that


In the next 10 years, maybe. This year? I will take that bet.


Deal...
Pay your beals....or its lights out!!!
Bron, Bosh, Wade is like Mike, Hakeem, barkley...3 top 5 picks from same draft
mike, hakeem and Barkley on the same team!!!!
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Re: Direction of the Wizards going forward 

Post#69 » by nate33 » Fri Dec 2, 2016 11:01 pm

deneem4 wrote:
nate33 wrote:
deneem4 wrote:Wall can make any capable big man work in the pick and roll

I don't think this is true at all. I continue to be surprised at how Gortat is underappreciated on these boards. He is a fantastic pick-and-roll center with great hands and great touch around the rim. I can't name 3 centers in the league who are better at pick and roll.


But he's incrediblely soft around the rim...
Rarely finishes thru contact
Doesnt kick out as often as he should when the defense collapse
And he's not a consistent pick and pop option when the defense slips....

Name 3 pick-and-roll centers better than Gortat offensively.
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Re: Direction of the Wizards going forward 

Post#70 » by deneem4 » Fri Dec 2, 2016 11:54 pm

nate33 wrote:
deneem4 wrote:
nate33 wrote:I don't think this is true at all. I continue to be surprised at how Gortat is underappreciated on these boards. He is a fantastic pick-and-roll center with great hands and great touch around the rim. I can't name 3 centers in the league who are better at pick and roll.


But he's incrediblely soft around the rim...
Rarely finishes thru contact
Doesnt kick out as often as he should when the defense collapse
And he's not a consistent pick and pop option when the defense slips....

Name 3 pick-and-roll centers better than Gortat offensively.


Embiid
Towns
Cousins

According to stats
Thompson
Kanter
Holmes
Adams
Turner

Who's has the highest t/o frequency outta then
Gortat
Who has lowest and 1 frequency outta them
Gortat

I didn't even mention
Davis
Gasol
Gasol
Jordan

http://stats.nba.com/league/player/#!/playtype/roll-man/?sort=TO&dir=1&Season=2016-17&SeasonType=Regular%20Season&CF=Time*G*20
Pay your beals....or its lights out!!!
Bron, Bosh, Wade is like Mike, Hakeem, barkley...3 top 5 picks from same draft
mike, hakeem and Barkley on the same team!!!!
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Re: Direction of the Wizards going forward 

Post#71 » by nate33 » Sat Dec 3, 2016 1:00 am

deneem4 wrote:
nate33 wrote:
deneem4 wrote:
But he's incrediblely soft around the rim...
Rarely finishes thru contact
Doesnt kick out as often as he should when the defense collapse
And he's not a consistent pick and pop option when the defense slips....

Name 3 pick-and-roll centers better than Gortat offensively.


Embiid
Towns
Cousins

According to stats
Thompson
Kanter
Holmes
Adams
Turner

Who's has the highest t/o frequency outta then
Gortat
Who has lowest and 1 frequency outta them
Gortat

I didn't even mention
Davis
Gasol
Gasol
Jordan

http://stats.nba.com/league/player/#!/playtype/roll-man/?sort=TO&dir=1&Season=2016-17&SeasonType=Regular%20Season&CF=Time*G*20

There's a little too much small sample size theater in using this year's numbers.

Here are the numbers from last year:

http://stats.nba.com/league/player/#!/playtype/roll-man/?sort=Percentile&dir=1&Season=2015-16&SeasonType=Regular%20Season&CF=Time*G*20&PerMode=Totals

There were 28 guys with 130 or more pick-and-roll attempts.

Of those 28 guys, Gortat ranked 4th in scoring percentage behind DeAndre Jordan, Hassan Whiteside, and Cody Zeller. (And Cody was just barely above Gortat in scoring percentage with 50 fewer attempts.)

Gortat ranked 10th in total number of pick-and-roll attempts. Nobody with more attempts had better efficiency than Gortat.
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Re: RE: Re: Direction of the Wizards going forward 

Post#72 » by Chocolate City Jordanaire » Sat Dec 3, 2016 1:22 am

WallToWall wrote:
Chocolate City Jordanaire wrote:<snip>
I might be the biggest DeMarcus Cousins fan but there is no way I want to trade a 2017 first-round pick to get Boogie.
This draft is all-time great


And this is why we should be seller and not buyers.
Before the trade deadline, we need to find buyers for Wall, Gortat, and anyone not on a cap-friendly contract. In return, we need to net us some 2017 1st round picks + other picks and players.


:nod:
Bye bye Beal.
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Re: Direction of the Wizards going forward 

Post#73 » by deneem4 » Sat Dec 3, 2016 3:03 am

nate33 wrote:
deneem4 wrote:
nate33 wrote:Name 3 pick-and-roll centers better than Gortat offensively.


Embiid
Towns
Cousins

According to stats
Thompson
Kanter
Holmes
Adams
Turner

Who's has the highest t/o frequency outta then
Gortat
Who has lowest and 1 frequency outta them
Gortat

I didn't even mention
Davis
Gasol
Gasol
Jordan

http://stats.nba.com/league/player/#!/playtype/roll-man/?sort=TO&dir=1&Season=2016-17&SeasonType=Regular%20Season&CF=Time*G*20

There's a little too much small sample size theater in using this year's numbers.

Here are the numbers from last year:

http://stats.nba.com/league/player/#!/playtype/roll-man/?sort=Percentile&dir=1&Season=2015-16&SeasonType=Regular%20Season&CF=Time*G*20&PerMode=Totals

There were 28 guys with 130 or more pick-and-roll attempts.

Of those 28 guys, Gortat ranked 4th in scoring percentage behind DeAndre Jordan, Hassan Whiteside, and Cody Zeller. (And Cody was just barely above Gortat in scoring percentage with 50 fewer attempts.)

Gortat ranked 10th in total number of pick-and-roll attempts. Nobody with more attempts had better efficiency than Gortat.


Last year #s can be misleading considering gortat is declining...
yea he was great last year but this year there are Alotta of other bigs playing better in the pnr. .
Also considering the coaching changes...roster changes and development of younger centers these new numbers should be more relevant
Pay your beals....or its lights out!!!
Bron, Bosh, Wade is like Mike, Hakeem, barkley...3 top 5 picks from same draft
mike, hakeem and Barkley on the same team!!!!
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Re: RE: Re: Direction of the Wizards going forward 

Post#74 » by Earth2Ted » Sat Dec 3, 2016 2:30 pm

Chocolate City Jordanaire wrote:
Earth2Ted wrote:Trade anybody but Wall for Cousins. If we can't - burn this mother down.

And get James Comey, Julian Assange, Edward Snowden, and Vladimir Putin to dig up some dirt on EFG- otherwise he's headed for a Castro like 50 year lifetime deal

Just the opposite. Trade Wall for Cousins.

Draft a couple PGs. The first among the likes of Dennis Smith, Markelle Fultz, and ___. The second, Jawun Evans.

No, this won't happen...

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Ccj I'm starting to come around to your side on wall vs Cousins. Wall has been around long enough that he's getting to "is what he is" territory. There's just something missing with the guy-a little like Alex Ovechkin - except wall is never gonna be an MVP or scoring leader.

I'm probably fooling myself but I still hold out hope that Wall and Cousins can join up with the Wizards in DC. I think they both want it to happen- and if it does, instant ECF contender team, with as many warts that both guys have.
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Re: RE: Re: Direction of the Wizards going forward 

Post#75 » by Chocolate City Jordanaire » Sun Dec 4, 2016 2:30 am

Earth2Ted wrote:
Chocolate City Jordanaire wrote:
Earth2Ted wrote:Trade anybody but Wall for Cousins. If we can't - burn this mother down.

And get James Comey, Julian Assange, Edward Snowden, and Vladimir Putin to dig up some dirt on EFG- otherwise he's headed for a Castro like 50 year lifetime deal

Just the opposite. Trade Wall for Cousins.

Draft a couple PGs. The first among the likes of Dennis Smith, Markelle Fultz, and ___. The second, Jawun Evans.

No, this won't happen...

Sent from my LG-H345 using RealGM mobile app


Ccj I'm starting to come around to your side on wall vs Cousins. Wall has been around long enough that he's getting to "is what he is" territory. There's just something missing with the guy-a little like Alex Ovechkin - except wall is never gonna be an MVP or scoring leader.

I'm probably fooling myself but I still hold out hope that Wall and Cousins can join up with the Wizards in DC. I think they both want it to happen- and if it does, instant ECF contender team, with as many warts that both guys have.


I think 55% it WILL happen. Most likely after this season; but, it wouldn't surprise me to see them both in DC sometime sooner than later.

Beal and Gortat both are balling. EG is DUMB ENOUGH to include a 1st in this draft ...

Sorry for the yelling. I just feel this GM WILL make a knee jerk move.
Bye bye Beal.

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