Political Roundtable Part XIV

[Zonkerbl]

Why don't you post some of the medical innovations that have come from Canada?

Sarcasm aside - Zonk has a point... we fund and subsidize (through higher drug costs and longer patents and sub patents) research. And literally the rest of the world has benefitted. Same with trade - while we were open and with huge trade deficits, we literally lifted billions out of poverty. And we were the world's policeman. While we were willing to do this role we kept hundreds of millions from being displaced.

But... we seem to be turning the corner as a country. We want to be more isolationist. It is a multi-edge sword and it is going to be interesting to see how it turns out.

What is this a graph of? The axes aren't labeled

[dckingsfan]

Why don't you post some of the medical innovations that have come from Canada?

Sarcasm aside - Zonk has a point... we fund and subsidize (through higher drug costs and longer patents and sub patents) research. And literally the rest of the world has benefitted. Same with trade - while we were open and with huge trade deficits, we literally lifted billions out of poverty. And we were the world's policeman. While we were willing to do this role we kept hundreds of millions from being displaced.

But... we seem to be turning the corner as a country. We want to be more isolationist. It is a multi-edge sword and it is going to be interesting to see how it turns out.

What is this a graph of? The axes aren't labeled

Countries at the bottom - number of breakthrough pharma technologies on the left.

[Zonkerbl]

Sarcasm aside - Zonk has a point... we fund and subsidize (through higher drug costs and longer patents and sub patents) research. And literally the rest of the world has benefitted. Same with trade - while we were open and with huge trade deficits, we literally lifted billions out of poverty. And we were the world's policeman. While we were willing to do this role we kept hundreds of millions from being displaced.

But... we seem to be turning the corner as a country. We want to be more isolationist. It is a multi-edge sword and it is going to be interesting to see how it turns out.

What is this a graph of? The axes aren't labeled

Countries at the bottom - number of breakthrough pharma technologies on the left.

Huh. Do you have the link to the article also?

[payitforward]

Countries create pharma-tech breakthroughs? I thought companies created them.

[dckingsfan]

Countries create pharma-tech breakthroughs? I thought companies created them.

companies, institutions and other pharma related entities within a given country.

[cammac]

Interesting article
http://www.msn.com/en-ca/money/markets/opinion-why-canada-is-able-to-do-things-better/ar-AAoAoHg?li=AA54rW&ocid=spartandhp
"Canadians tend not to talk about making their country great again. Canada never was particularly great—at least not in the sense that Trump uses the word. Unlike Americans, Canadians haven’t been conditioned to see history in epic, revolutionary terms. For them, it’s more transactional: You pay your taxes, you get your government. That might not be chanted at any political rallies or printed on any baseball hats. But it works for Canada. And it’d work for America too."

[CobraCommander]

Interesting article
http://www.msn.com/en-ca/money/markets/opinion-why-canada-is-able-to-do-things-better/ar-AAoAoHg?li=AA54rW&ocid=spartandhp
"Canadians tend not to talk about making their country great again. Canada never was particularly great—at least not in the sense that Trump uses the word. Unlike Americans, Canadians haven’t been conditioned to see history in epic, revolutionary terms. For them, it’s more transactional: You pay your taxes, you get your government. That might not be chanted at any political rallies or printed on any baseball hats. But it works for Canada. And it’d work for America too."

Correction- America was never great in the sense that Trump is talking about.

What makes America great is the freedom to pursue happiness and the desire to make a more perfect union. We have never achieved absolute greatness for ALL its people.

Ask any American when America was great and when it stop being great.

The truth is Trump is a political and business genius. Part of his genius is in marketing. When he says make America great again to poor, lower middle class, southern, marginally educated white people ...he knows what that means to them (even if he doesnt share thier belief). Especially if they have even a "little bit of racism in them" after Obama held office. He knows that to that group of people it means - essentially the same thing that flying a confederate flag means. Return America to its great heritage (you know pre-civil war..America was great for that group of Americans but not the ones that predominantly play in the NBA). When he says Make America great again to someone in Michigan, Ohio or Pennsylvania it means something like...when America was Great at manufacturing...yeah like way back when people wanted to make a low livable wage smelting, building stuff or sewing things. Aight make America great again and bring those jobs back....or make America great in West Virginia means when we produced a crap ton a coal and Climate change was unchecked and the coal miners made a livable wage while dying of black lung...America was GREAT then.

I'm ok with all of that...i actually get it. Trump is smarter than both parties and MOST America in both Parties. There are people that voted for or against him simply based on his party. Trump is clearly smarter than someone that follows a party blindly...he was a registered democrat then a republican when it served him..his locality is to himself, his brand and his kids...i respect the hell out of that even if i dont agree with him on much...we agree that those are three of the most important things you should be loyal to.

When trump says make America great again he is basically saying...lets Roll back all that CHANGE that Obama gave you that you don't believe in. While all the time...tricking those under educated people that voted from him into pushing for the same things OBAMA pushed for and campaigned on. Whenever i am talking to a trump supporter that calls Obama a socialist... i laugh because the most socialist thing Obama pushed was universal healthcare. Obama branded Universal health care as Obamacare...but thats just marketing. It's plain old socialist universal healthcare. SOMETHING THAT REPUBLICANS HATED FOREVER AND CALLED ANTI-AMERICAN...and kept saying it was wrong for the government to give these poor people healthcare...now instead of shutting down Universal healthcare...Trump decides that he is going to push HIS FORM of universal healthcare and he even campaigned on it...repeal and replace. Is marketing that essentially says "get rid of obamas healthcare plan and put trumps healthcare plan in place"...its like how when trump puts his name on a building and says he built it when sometimes he doesnt even own or build it...its marketing- Brilliant. the funny thing is that THE True legacy of Obama is going to be the introduction of universal healthcare and TRUMP is going to help solidify it by attempting to improve upon it...which is exactly what Obama wants if Obama cares more about Americans without healthcare than he does about his name being on a social program.

The same under educated people without historical viewpoints think Trump is doing something new but its same old stuff when it comes to his slogans and on healthcare.

The other stuff he is doing is completely unpredictable unprofessional and unprecedented... god help us...lol

America is already great and flawed at the same time...

[cammac]

Interesting article
http://www.msn.com/en-ca/money/markets/opinion-why-canada-is-able-to-do-things-better/ar-AAoAoHg?li=AA54rW&ocid=spartandhp
"Canadians tend not to talk about making their country great again. Canada never was particularly great—at least not in the sense that Trump uses the word. Unlike Americans, Canadians haven’t been conditioned to see history in epic, revolutionary terms. For them, it’s more transactional: You pay your taxes, you get your government. That might not be chanted at any political rallies or printed on any baseball hats. But it works for Canada. And it’d work for America too."

Correction- America was never great in the sense that Trump is talking about.

What makes America great is the freedom to pursue happiness and the desire to make a more perfect union. We have never achieved absolute greatness for ALL its people.

Ask any American when America was great and when it stop being great.

The truth is Trump is a political and business genius. Part of his genius is in marketing. When he says make America great again to poor, lower middle class, southern, marginally educated white people ...he knows what that means to them (even if he doesnt share thier belief). Especially if they have even a "little bit of racism in them" after Obama held office. He knows that to that group of people it means - essentially the same thing that flying a confederate flag means. Return America to its great heritage (you know pre-civil war..America was great for that group of Americans but not the ones that predominantly play in the NBA). When he says Make America great again to someone in Michigan, Ohio or Pennsylvania it means something like...when America was Great at manufacturing...yeah like way back when people wanted to make a low livable wage smelting, building stuff or sewing things. Aight make America great again and bring those jobs back....or make America great in West Virginia means when we produced a crap ton a coal and Climate change was unchecked and the coal miners made a livable wage while dying of black lung...America was GREAT then.

I'm ok with all of that...i actually get it. Trump is smarter than both parties and MOST America in both Parties. There are people that voted for or against him simply based on his party. Trump is clearly smarter than someone that follows a party blindly...he was a registered democrat then a republican when it served him..his locality is to himself, his brand and his kids...i respect the hell out of that even if i dont agree with him on much...we agree that those are three of the most important things you should be loyal to.

When trump says make America great again he is basically saying...lets Roll back all that CHANGE that Obama gave you that you don't believe in. While all the time...tricking those under educated people that voted from him into pushing for the same things OBAMA pushed for and campaigned on. Whenever i am talking to a trump supporter that calls Obama a socialist... i laugh because the most socialist thing Obama pushed was universal healthcare. Obama branded Universal health care as Obamacare...but thats just marketing. It's plain old socialist universal healthcare. SOMETHING THAT REPUBLICANS HATED FOREVER AND CALLED ANTI-AMERICAN...and kept saying it was wrong for the government to give these poor people healthcare...now instead of shutting down Universal healthcare...Trump decides that he is going to push HIS FORM of universal healthcare and he even campaigned on it...repeal and replace. Is marketing that essentially says "get rid of obamas healthcare plan and put trumps healthcare plan in place"...its like how when trump puts his name on a building and says he built it when sometimes he doesnt even own or build it...its marketing- Brilliant. the funny thing is that THE True legacy of Obama is going to be the introduction of universal healthcare and TRUMP is going to help solidify it by attempting to improve upon it...which is exactly what Obama wants if Obama cares more about Americans without healthcare than he does about his name being on a social program.

The same under educated people without historical viewpoints think Trump is doing something new but its same old stuff when it comes to his slogans and on healthcare.

The other stuff he is doing is completely unpredictable unprofessional and unprecedented... god help us...lol

America is already great and flawed at the same time...[/quote

The quote was from the end of the article read the article but you analysis is correct on those who voted for him.

[CobraCommander]

Interesting article
http://www.msn.com/en-ca/money/markets/opinion-why-canada-is-able-to-do-things-better/ar-AAoAoHg?li=AA54rW&ocid=spartandhp
"Canadians tend not to talk about making their country great again. Canada never was particularly great—at least not in the sense that Trump uses the word. Unlike Americans, Canadians haven’t been conditioned to see history in epic, revolutionary terms. For them, it’s more transactional: You pay your taxes, you get your government. That might not be chanted at any political rallies or printed on any baseball hats. But it works for Canada. And it’d work for America too."

Correction- America was never great in the sense that Trump is talking about.

What makes America great is the freedom to pursue happiness and the desire to make a more perfect union. We have never achieved absolute greatness for ALL its people.

Ask any American when America was great and when it stop being great.

The truth is Trump is a political and business genius. Part of his genius is in marketing. When he says make America great again to poor, lower middle class, southern, marginally educated white people ...he knows what that means to them (even if he doesnt share thier belief). Especially if they have even a "little bit of racism in them" after Obama held office. He knows that to that group of people it means - essentially the same thing that flying a confederate flag means. Return America to its great heritage (you know pre-civil war..America was great for that group of Americans but not the ones that predominantly play in the NBA). When he says Make America great again to someone in Michigan, Ohio or Pennsylvania it means something like...when America was Great at manufacturing...yeah like way back when people wanted to make a low livable wage smelting, building stuff or sewing things. Aight make America great again and bring those jobs back....or make America great in West Virginia means when we produced a crap ton a coal and Climate change was unchecked and the coal miners made a livable wage while dying of black lung...America was GREAT then.

I'm ok with all of that...i actually get it. Trump is smarter than both parties and MOST America in both Parties. There are people that voted for or against him simply based on his party. Trump is clearly smarter than someone that follows a party blindly...he was a registered democrat then a republican when it served him..his locality is to himself, his brand and his kids...i respect the hell out of that even if i dont agree with him on much...we agree that those are three of the most important things you should be loyal to.

When trump says make America great again he is basically saying...lets Roll back all that CHANGE that Obama gave you that you don't believe in. While all the time...tricking those under educated people that voted from him into pushing for the same things OBAMA pushed for and campaigned on. Whenever i am talking to a trump supporter that calls Obama a socialist... i laugh because the most socialist thing Obama pushed was universal healthcare. Obama branded Universal health care as Obamacare...but thats just marketing. It's plain old socialist universal healthcare. SOMETHING THAT REPUBLICANS HATED FOREVER AND CALLED ANTI-AMERICAN...and kept saying it was wrong for the government to give these poor people healthcare...now instead of shutting down Universal healthcare...Trump decides that he is going to push HIS FORM of universal healthcare and he even campaigned on it...repeal and replace. Is marketing that essentially says "get rid of obamas healthcare plan and put trumps healthcare plan in place"...its like how when trump puts his name on a building and says he built it when sometimes he doesnt even own or build it...its marketing- Brilliant. the funny thing is that THE True legacy of Obama is going to be the introduction of universal healthcare and TRUMP is going to help solidify it by attempting to improve upon it...which is exactly what Obama wants if Obama cares more about Americans without healthcare than he does about his name being on a social program.

The same under educated people without historical viewpoints think Trump is doing something new but its same old stuff when it comes to his slogans and on healthcare.

The other stuff he is doing is completely unpredictable unprofessional and unprecedented... god help us...lol

America is already great and flawed at the same time...[/quote

The quote was from the end of the article read the article but you analysis is correct on those who voted for him.

[I_Like_Dirt]

I don't buy the idea that the free market drives innovation i.e. R&D. It's in humankind's best interest to create cures, not just because it puts money in people's pockets.

I'll play the bad guy here, but is it really in humanity's best interest? I mean, sure, cures are great in a vacuum, but it's never a vacuum. The reality is that, past a certain point, you're basically throwing your life away chasing anything to try to help or delay the inevitable. Everyone in the world has someone they care or cared about who has died because of some awful medical issue. Left to their own devices, many people basically bankrupt themselves looking for solutions that simply never come.

The answer to that is that collectively we don't have to bankrupt ourselves chasing solutions and can instead pool our resources, but in the end, there still aren't always solutions and we can still collectively bankrupt ourselves, too, and hard decisions have to be made.

And all this is speaking to cures specifically, without getting into the concept of treatments, that are much more subjective overall.

So yes, cures matter and are important and better humanity, but assuming a cure is out there, and that it won't lead to simply other issues immediately after said cure that invariably cost more to figure out how to treat and hopefully eventually cure can lead to ruin if not checked. And what was the last real disease that was actually 100% cured overall? Actual cures are few and far between which is why that graph presented showed "pharmaceutical breakthroughs" rather than cures. Not that there isn't value there, either, but the value to humanity matters. I mean, the most significant medical breakthroughs in history generally tend to be things that weren't actually patented. Targeting processes for patents' sake doesn't necessarily make it a worse or a better road for humanity, but it's something that needs to be evaluated carefully.

[Wizardspride]

Read on Twitter

[CobraCommander]

Read on Twitter

Rudy just crazy...but he will do exactly what Trump tells him to do!

[DCZards]

Ask any American when America was great and when it stop being great.

The truth is Trump is a political and business genius. Part of his genius is in marketing. When he says make America great again to poor, lower middle class, southern, marginally educated white people ...he knows what that means to them (even if he doesnt share thier belief). Especially if they have even a "little bit of racism in them" after Obama held office. He knows that to that group of people it means - essentially the same thing that flying a confederate flag means. Return America to its great heritage (you know pre-civil war..America was great for that group of Americans but not the ones that predominantly play in the NBA). When he says Make America great again to someone in Michigan, Ohio or Pennsylvania it means something like...when America was Great at manufacturing...yeah like way back when people wanted to make a low livable wage smelting, building stuff or sewing things. Aight make America great again and bring those jobs back....or make America great in West Virginia means when we produced a crap ton a coal and Climate change was unchecked and the coal miners made a livable wage while dying of black lung...America was GREAT then.

I'm ok with all of that...i actually get it. Trump is smarter than both parties and MOST America in both Parties.

Is Trump being "smart and a genius" when he misleads the marginally educated, poor and lower middle class citizens in the south and blue collar workers in the Midwest? Or is he being devious and dishonest? I believe it's the latter. Personally, I find it hard to respect DT or label him "smart" for playing on the fears, insecurities, ignorance, ethnocentrism, racism, etc. of ordinary Americans who deserve honesty and policies based on current day realities...and not bluster.

Trump is not going to be able to turn back the clock as some of his base seem to believe. This country's diversity is here to stay and manufacturing jobs/coal mines are not coming back.

When trump says make America great again he is basically saying...lets Roll back all that CHANGE that Obama gave you that you don't believe in. While all the time...tricking those under educated people that voted from him into pushing for the same things OBAMA pushed for and campaigned on. Whenever i am talking to a trump supporter that calls Obama a socialist... i laugh because the most socialist thing Obama pushed was universal healthcare. Obama branded Universal health care as Obamacare...but thats just marketing. It's plain old socialist universal healthcare. SOMETHING THAT REPUBLICANS HATED FOREVER AND CALLED ANTI-AMERICAN...and kept saying it was wrong for the government to give these poor people healthcare...now instead of shutting down Universal healthcare...Trump decides that he is going to push HIS FORM of universal healthcare and he even campaigned on it...repeal and replace. Is marketing that essentially says "get rid of obamas healthcare plan and put trumps healthcare plan in place"...its like how when trump puts his name on a building and says he built it when sometimes he doesnt even own or build it...its marketing- Brilliant. the funny thing is that THE True legacy of Obama is going to be the introduction of universal healthcare and TRUMP is going to help solidify it by attempting to improve upon it...which is exactly what Obama wants if Obama cares more about Americans without healthcare than he does about his name being on a social program.

Actually, it wasn't Obama who labeled the ACA "Obamacare." It was derisively labeled "Obamacare" by Republicans who thought they could use the law against Obama when he ran for re-election in 2012. Obama eventually embraced the term "Obamacare," which was smart on his part, especially since, as you point out, universal healthcare or "Obamacare" (in one form or the other) is here to stay.

I can't think of any major federal law that will forever bear the name of a former president. "Obamacare" is going to change that.

[CobraCommander]

Ask any American when America was great and when it stop being great.

The truth is Trump is a political and business genius. Part of his genius is in marketing. When he says make America great again to poor, lower middle class, southern, marginally educated white people ...he knows what that means to them (even if he doesnt share thier belief). Especially if they have even a "little bit of racism in them" after Obama held office. He knows that to that group of people it means - essentially the same thing that flying a confederate flag means. Return America to its great heritage (you know pre-civil war..America was great for that group of Americans but not the ones that predominantly play in the NBA). When he says Make America great again to someone in Michigan, Ohio or Pennsylvania it means something like...when America was Great at manufacturing...yeah like way back when people wanted to make a low livable wage smelting, building stuff or sewing things. Aight make America great again and bring those jobs back....or make America great in West Virginia means when we produced a crap ton a coal and Climate change was unchecked and the coal miners made a livable wage while dying of black lung...America was GREAT then.

I'm ok with all of that...i actually get it. Trump is smarter than both parties and MOST America in both Parties.

Is Trump being "smart and a genius" when he misleads the marginally educated, poor and lower middle class citizens in the south and blue collar workers in the Midwest? Or is he being devious and dishonest? I believe it's the latter. Personally, I find it hard to respect DT or label him "smart" for playing on the fears, insecurities, ignorance, ethnocentrism, racism, etc. of ordinary Americans who deserve honesty and policies based on current day realities...and not bluster.

Trump is not going to be able to turn back the clock as some of his base seem to believe. This country's diversity is here to stay and manufacturing jobs/coal mines are not coming back.

When trump says make America great again he is basically saying...lets Roll back all that CHANGE that Obama gave you that you don't believe in. While all the time...tricking those under educated people that voted from him into pushing for the same things OBAMA pushed for and campaigned on. Whenever i am talking to a trump supporter that calls Obama a socialist... i laugh because the most socialist thing Obama pushed was universal healthcare. Obama branded Universal health care as Obamacare...but thats just marketing. It's plain old socialist universal healthcare. SOMETHING THAT REPUBLICANS HATED FOREVER AND CALLED ANTI-AMERICAN...and kept saying it was wrong for the government to give these poor people healthcare...now instead of shutting down Universal healthcare...Trump decides that he is going to push HIS FORM of universal healthcare and he even campaigned on it...repeal and replace. Is marketing that essentially says "get rid of obamas healthcare plan and put trumps healthcare plan in place"...its like how when trump puts his name on a building and says he built it when sometimes he doesnt even own or build it...its marketing- Brilliant. the funny thing is that THE True legacy of Obama is going to be the introduction of universal healthcare and TRUMP is going to help solidify it by attempting to improve upon it...which is exactly what Obama wants if Obama cares more about Americans without healthcare than he does about his name being on a social program.

Actually, it wasn't Obama who labeled the ACA "Obamacare." It was labeled "Obamacare" by Republicans who thought they could use the law against Obama when he ran for re-election in 2012. Yes, Obama eventually embraced the term "Obamacare," which was smart on his part, especially since, as you point out, universal healthcare (in one form or the other) is here to stay.

I can't think of any major federal law that will forever bear the name of a former president. "Obamacare" is going to change that.

Is Trump being "smart and a genius" when he misleads the marginally educated, poor and lower middle class citizens in the south and blue collar workers in the Midwest? Or is he being devious and dishonest? I believe it's the latter. Personally, I find it hard to respect DT or label him "smart" for playing on the fears, insecurities, ignorance, ethnocentrism, racism, etc. of ordinary Americans who deserve honesty and policies based on current day realities...and not bluster.

Biggley disclaimer:I am not a fan of Donald Trump and I find nothing about the way he is running the country honorable or respectable.

To my point about him being a genius- You can argue and disagree with his politics and tactics but it would be folly to consider anyone that achieved the title of POTUS as anything less than a political genius. If the sign of a good politician is the highest office they get elected to, then trump is the top eligible politician. You may want the goal of a good politician to be an excellent leader that guides the country in a way that furthers it towards greater prosperity, but that clearly isn't the way our country chooses its leaders. We dont pick experinced leaders that have led at all levels of government to be president and thus have proven that they can govern at the highest level. The last two presidents have had limited or no experience when it came to governing as compared to thier competitors in the primaries and general elections. Yet they won. How did they win??? they crafted a story that resonated in "swing states and counties". They both won is areas where their party didn't have a strangle hold on because they marketed to those people with a story of change. Hillary essentially lost to the same message TWICE. For Trump to repackage Obamas message and plans is a clearly a work of art and dare I say genius. Is it Trump or Obama that is getting America out of the useless wars of the last president, making peace with traditional enemies because he is charasmatic and liked on the world stage, able to broker deals with the other party (reach across the aisle) because he isnt a part of the established oligarchy and he is going to do this all for the common man because he understands and cares about thier plight even though he went to an Ivy League school (which essentially makes him part of the upper echelons of American society). Oh and he is going to give you affordable healthcare- wow who ever is going to do that is either a brilliant politician or a marketing genius or GOD HIMSELF!!!! Well the one that can sell enough people on the ability to do that to get elected POTUS is a marketing mastermind and if he can actually accomplish any of that he will be a political master mind.

My point about Trump misleading the marginally educated isnt exclusive to Trump either. You are misguided if you think Obama or any other president didn't say what needed to be said to be elected. Only the educated on specific subjects can refute some of the claims and promises that presidents make. Tell me when was the last time you met someone that told you they truly understood the idiocies of the job growth numbers (and those are actually published regularly), tax code law, complex military strategy, climate change science, global commerce/economics and which fork is the salad fork...for real? Yet we expect the president to be an expert in all these areas...enough of an expert to talk and give plans about how he would address most of these things before the election... even though they dont have the security clearances needed to understand the nuance of the previous administrations decisions. Remember Obama is shutting down GitMo...yeah until he saw who the hell was locked up there...then he was like "HELL NO, Bush was right to lock this dude up...off shore so we can and will torture him...'legally'" ...of course. Obama had no problem violating the human rights of non-Americans (and I dont blame him) when it came to GitMo.

I am not saying Trump is anywhere as good of a president or man as Obama- but I am saying you are not looking at our political system correctly if you think Obama wasn't a part of the political machine that misleads americans every day to ensure they stay in power. You notice how the democrats and the republicans only discuss abortion during the election cycles? its a polarizing issue that makes the under educated pick sides...not knowing the truth is, neither side wants the abortion laws to change. The democrats really dont want ultra late term abortions because thats "barbaric"...(the baby is actually dreaming at that point)and the republicans dont want to eliminate ALL abortions. They want the people to get galvanized by the argument and come out to vote...then they put the abortion issue on the shelf until they need to get the ultra liberal/ feminist or the conservative Christians out to vote...truth is if the republicans wanted to attack abortion they could have attempted to pass law after law while they had both the house and senate...but they havent said a thing about it. Sean Hannity hasn't said a word about abortion...but damn its so important that people didn't vote for Hillary cause she is pro abortion...comical. Pop quiz...does congress or Supreme Court introduce/write/make laws? Think about the answer next time the abortion debate pops up.

From reading your notes it looks like you are a fan of Obama...good for you on that. But the same way i can respect that you are a fan of Obama, I see Obama for who he is and based on that, i can see why someone with different views is a Trump fan.

Now the real question on Trump is, how long will the republicans let him run Washington like a family business? The nepotism is historic and his demanding allegiance is amazing. I am sure all presidents demand allegiance behind closed doors but the difference is trump is not even pretending that he wants the republicans to support republican causes...trump is demanding that they support and protect thier leader because he won the election...and he is their president. I'm not saying that sounds like a dictator ...but I'm not saying it doesnt.

[dobrojim]

[major snippage]


To my point about him being a genius- You can argue and disagree with his politics and tactics but it would be folly to consider anyone that achieved the title of POTUS as anything less than a political genius. If the sign of a good politician is the highest office they get elected to, then trump is the top eligible politician.

He was very fortunate and I think it is fair to argue that a portion, how significant is debatable,
of his success was due to a number of factors having little to nothing to do with him, working in
his favor. The principal one I am thinking of is the exceedingly high level of UNpopularity
and distrust by the american people of his major party opponent.

Add to that the historical infrequency of a major party holding the WH for > 8 years
and his victory doesn't in retrospect seem that remarkable.

We are also in a era of seemingly extraordinary levels of tribalism.
Rational objectivity has become an almost complete non-factor for
a huge proportion of voters in choosing who they will vote for.
It is currently an apparent necessity on the part of a large number
of people to know someone's party affiliation before they can pass
judgement on any particular action that person may have taken.

[CobraCommander]

[major snippage]


To my point about him being a genius- You can argue and disagree with his politics and tactics but it would be folly to consider anyone that achieved the title of POTUS as anything less than a political genius. If the sign of a good politician is the highest office they get elected to, then trump is the top eligible politician.

He was very fortunate and I think it is fair to argue that a portion, how significant is debatable,
of his success was due to a number of factors having little to nothing to do with him, working in
his favor. The principal one I am thinking of is the exceedingly high level of UNpopularity
and distrust by the american people of his major party opponent.

Add to that the historical infrequency of a major party holding the WH for > 8 years
and his victory doesn't in retrospect seem that remarkable.

We are also in a era of seemingly extraordinary levels of tribalism.
Rational objectivity has become an almost complete non-factor for
a huge proportion of voters in choosing who they will vote for.
It is currently an apparent necessity on the part of a large number
of people to know someone's party affiliation before they can pass
judgement on any particular action that person may have taken.

I agree but...All of your points can be made about every president since WWII and I could make a direct argument for everyone since Carter. Your point is Trump won because the other party put up a candidate that lost...well yes. Think about how flawed McCain and Romney looked against Obama. Was that Obamas doing or were those men really as flawed as Obama made them look? I would say its both- Obama was a better candidate and both of his opponents were flawed...which is essentially the same thing Trump did. Trump highlighted Hillarys weaknesses and rode a wave of tribalism. Obama did the same thing...i apologize if in my ultra long response that I didn't cover that fact. My point is taking advantage of everything you said is part of the genius.

[verbal8]

[major snippage]


To my point about him being a genius- You can argue and disagree with his politics and tactics but it would be folly to consider anyone that achieved the title of POTUS as anything less than a political genius. If the sign of a good politician is the highest office they get elected to, then trump is the top eligible politician.

He was very fortunate and I think it is fair to argue that a portion, how significant is debatable,
of his success was due to a number of factors having little to nothing to do with him, working in
his favor. The principal one I am thinking of is the exceedingly high level of UNpopularity
and distrust by the american people of his major party opponent.

Add to that the historical infrequency of a major party holding the WH for > 8 years
and his victory doesn't in retrospect seem that remarkable.

We are also in a era of seemingly extraordinary levels of tribalism.
Rational objectivity has become an almost complete non-factor for
a huge proportion of voters in choosing who they will vote for.
It is currently an apparent necessity on the part of a large number
of people to know someone's party affiliation before they can pass
judgement on any particular action that person may have taken.

I agree but...All of your points can be made about every president since WWII and I could make a direct argument for everyone since Carter. Your point is Trump won because the other party put up a candidate that lost...well yes. Think about how flawed McCain and Romney looked against Obama. Was that Obamas doing or were those men really as flawed as Obama made them look? I would say its both- Obama was a better candidate and both of his opponents were flawed...which is essentially the same thing Trump did. Trump highlighted Hillarys weaknesses and rode a wave of tribalism. Obama did the same thing...i apologize if in my ultra long response that I didn't cover that fact. My point is taking advantage of everything you said is part of the genius.

A big difference between 2016 and most elections is both candidates were historically unpopular. I think it would have been like having 1980 Jimmy Carter running against post-Watergate Nixon. If Clinton had won it would have been despite her political skills, not because of them.

While I would downplay the political prowess in the general election I think both candidates did display skill in getting their nomination. Clinton has been laying the groundwork for years and was able to clear the field of any establishment candidates, it what could have been a very enticing year for a Democratic presidential hopefully(although maybe not as much 2020). Trump's genius was keeping the attention on him in a crowded field. Even if a lot of the time he was seen negatively by 55% to 60% of primary voters, he built a core that got him the nomination. One thing about the Republicans is significantly fewer identify as such vs. Democrats. So Trump had an advantage(which he used well) in being an "independent" seeking the Republican nomination.

[dckingsfan]

Just tossing out one more point of the election - there was a shift - those that make less than $50,000 move to support Rs vs. Ds in that election. And it wasn't based upon progressive vs. conservative ideology.

Both Bernie and Trump basically said they were going to raise or not cap entitlement spending. Trump also beat on established trade policies - with the America first mantra.

I think the election has serious ramifications for future candidates. Talk about any kind of sustainability in entitlement spending or about free trade at your own risk.

[dobrojim]

[major snippage]


To my point about him being a genius- You can argue and disagree with his politics and tactics but it would be folly to consider anyone that achieved the title of POTUS as anything less than a political genius. If the sign of a good politician is the highest office they get elected to, then trump is the top eligible politician.

He was very fortunate and I think it is fair to argue that a portion, how significant is debatable,
of his success was due to a number of factors having little to nothing to do with him, working in
his favor. The principal one I am thinking of is the exceedingly high level of UNpopularity
and distrust by the american people of his major party opponent.

Add to that the historical infrequency of a major party holding the WH for > 8 years
and his victory doesn't in retrospect seem that remarkable.

We are also in a era of seemingly extraordinary levels of tribalism.
Rational objectivity has become an almost complete non-factor for
a huge proportion of voters in choosing who they will vote for.
It is currently an apparent necessity on the part of a large number
of people to know someone's party affiliation before they can pass
judgement on any particular action that person may have taken.

I agree but...All of your points can be made about every president since WWII and I could make a direct argument for everyone since Carter. Your point is Trump won because the other party put up a candidate that lost...well yes. Think about how flawed McCain and Romney looked against Obama. Was that Obamas doing or were those men really as flawed as Obama made them look? I would say its both- Obama was a better candidate and both of his opponents were flawed...which is essentially the same thing Trump did. Trump highlighted Hillarys weaknesses and rode a wave of tribalism. Obama did the same thing...i apologize if in my ultra long response that I didn't cover that fact. My point is taking advantage of everything you said is part of the genius.

Which major party candidates were as personally and viscerally unpopular as HRC?

My point, a huge number of people really were never ever going to vote for her.
However flawed many of the other losers in the recent past were, I don't think
they engendered the type of response that HRC did among such a wide swath of
voters.

[Wizardspride]

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/reliable-source/wp/2017/07/26/she-was-a-historic-first-lady-but-michelle-obama-says-some-never-saw-past-my-skin-color/?utm_term=.db5bfb4798f4

She was a historic first lady, but Michelle Obama says some never saw past ‘my skin color’

The moderator lauded Michelle Obama for her achievements over the past eight years and touched on the former first lady’s plans, but Tuesday’s conversation also veered into uncomfortable territory.

It was Obama’s largest public appearance since the 2016 election — speaking in front of more than 8,000 people at the Women’s Foundation of Colorado’s 30th anniversary celebration — and she touched on personal attacks that she faced again and again. Many had the same theme.

“The shards that cut me the deepest were the ones that intended to cut,” Obama said, according to the Denver Post. “Knowing that after eight years of working really hard for this country, there are still people who won’t see me for what I am because of my skin color.”

She’s been called an “atrocity” as first lady who’s not classy enough — or at least not as classy as her white predecessors. A Washington state mayor said she has a gorilla face. Fox News said she was former president Barack Obama’s “baby mama,” as opposed to his wife and the mother of his children.

She’s been criticized for doing pushups and for wearing shorts.

And the criticism continued until she was almost out of the White House.

In November, the director of a nonprofit in a small West Virginia Town drew national scorn after calling Obama an “ape in heels.”

As The Washington Post’s Kristine Phillips and Lindsey Bever reported, Pamela Taylor took to Facebook after Donald Trump was elected, sharing her thoughts about the upcoming shift from Obama to Melania Trump as first lady.


“It will be so refreshing to have a classy, beautiful, dignified first lady back in the White House,” she wrote. “I’m tired of seeing a Ape in heels.”