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Official Draft Positioning Thread, aka: The Tank Cave

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Official Draft Positioning Thread, aka: The Tank Cave 

Post#1 » by miller31time » Thu Jan 15, 2009 4:00 am

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So this thread is basically a staple with all impending lottery teams on RealGM throughout the years. Use it to track the wins and losses of teams we are currently battling for that #1 pick, such as the Thunder, the Clippers the Kings and the Warriors, along with any other discussion you'd like to add about our lotto situation, what you'd like to see us do with the pick, etc.

Firstly, let's establish the rules for the NBA Draft Lottery procedure....

The lottery is normally held during the fourth week of May. The 2008 draft lottery was held on May 20. The Chicago Bulls, Miami Heat, and Minnesota Timberwolves won the first through third picks, respectively.

To determine the winner, fourteen ping pong balls numbered 1–14 are placed in a standard lottery machine and four balls are randomly selected from the lot. Just as in most traditional lotteries, the order in which the numbers are drawn is not important. That is, 1-2-3-4 is considered to be the same as 4-3-2-1. So although there is a total of 24 orders in which the balls numbered 1-2-3-4 can be picked, they are all treated as the same outcome. In doing this, the permutation of 4 balls from 14 becomes the combination of 4 balls from 14. That is, the total of 24,024 (14! / 10!, or 14x13x12x11) possible permutations is reduced by a factor of 24, to 1,001 combinations. Of these, 1 outcome is disregarded and 1,000 outcomes are distributed among the 14 non-playoff NBA teams. The combination 11-12-13-14 (in any order that those numbers are drawn) is not assigned and it is ignored if drawn; this has never occurred in practice.

In the event a lottery pick is traded to another team, the record of the original team (whose pick it was before the trade) still matters in determining eligibility for the lottery, and assignment of chances.

As of 2008, with 30 NBA teams, 16 qualify for the playoffs and the remaining 14 teams are entered in the draft lottery. These 14 teams are ranked in reverse order of their regular season record and are assigned the following number of chances

1. 250 combinations, 25% chance of receiving the #1 pick
2. 199 combinations, 19.9% chance
3. 156 combinations, 15.6% chance
4. 119 combinations, 11.9% chance
5. 88 combinations, 8.8% chance
6. 63 combinations, 6.3% chance
7. 43 combinations, 4.3% chance
8. 28 combinations, 2.8% chance
9. 17 combinations, 1.7% chance
10. 11 combinations, 1.1% chance
11. 8 combinations, 0.8% chance
12. 7 combinations, 0.7% chance
13. 6 combinations, 0.6% chance
14. 5 combinations, 0.5% chance

In the event that teams finish with the same record, each tied team receives the average of the total number of combinations for the positions that they occupy. In 2007, the Minnesota Timberwolves and the Portland Trail Blazers tied for the sixth worst record. The average of the 6th and 7th positions in the lottery was taken, resulting in each team getting 53 combinations (the average of 63 and 43). Should the average number not be an integer, a coin flip is then used to determine which team or teams receive the extra combination(s). The result of the coin flip is also used to determine who receives the earlier pick in the event that neither of the tied teams wins one of the first three picks via the lottery.

The lottery is conducted with witnesses verifying that all 14 balls are represented once as they are placed in the lottery machine. The balls are placed in the machine for 20 seconds to randomize prior to having the first ball drawn. The remaining three balls are drawn at 10-second intervals. NBA officials determine which team holds the winning combination and that franchise is awarded the #1 overall draft pick. The four balls are returned to the machine and the process is repeated to determine the second and third picks. In the event that a combination belongs to a team that has already won its pick (or if the one unassigned combination comes up), the round is repeated until a unique winner is determined. When the first three teams have been determined, the remaining picks are given out based on regular season record with the worst teams getting the highest picks. This assures each team that it can drop no more than three spots from its projected draft position.

A simple explanation: 1000 different outcomes of an experiment exist and are equally likely to occur. A certain amount of outcomes is assigned to each non-playoff NBA team. The largest number of outcomes is assigned to the team with the worst record. The team with the second worst record gets the second largest number of outcomes, and so on for each of the 14 teams in the lottery. The experiment is conducted, and the team to which the winning outcome was assigned receives the 1st pick in the NBA Draft. The experiment is conducted again. If the winner is the same team that already won, the experiment is performed over again until there is a different winner. The winner of the second experiment receives the 2nd pick. The winner of the third experiment receives the 3rd pick. After the 1st, 2nd, and 3rd picks are determined, the 4th-14th picks are assigned to teams based on weakness of record.

In a case where a lottery team trades its pick to a playoff team, the playoff team assumes the lottery team's position in all draft lottery situations, unless provisioned by the conditions of the trade.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/NBA_Lottery

Now, let's take a look at the standings, accurate as of Wednesday, January 14th, 2009....

Team Name / Wins / Losses / Percentage / Games Behind

Code: Select all

1. Oklahoma City       7      33     0.175 (0.0 gb)
2. Washington          7      31     0.184 (1.0 gb)
3. L.A. Clippers       8      30     0.211 (2.0 gb)
4. Sacramento          10     30     0.250 (3.0 gb)
5. Golden State        11     29     0.275 (4.0 gb)
6. Memphis             11     27     0.289 (5.0 gb)
7. Minnesota           11     26     0.297 (5.5 gb)
8. Indiana             14     25     0.359 (7.5 gb)
9. Charlotte           15     24     0.385 (8.5 gb)
10. Toronto            16     24     0.400 (9.0 gb)
11. New York           15     22     0.405 (9.5 gb)
12. Chicago            17     22     0.436 (10.5 gb)
13. Milwaukee          19     22     0.463 (11.5 gb)
14. Philadelphia       18     20     0.474 (12.0 gb)
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Re: Official Draft Positioning Thread 

Post#2 » by JWizmentality » Thu Jan 15, 2009 4:14 am

I say we make this an epic fail thread.

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Re: Official Draft Positioning Thread 

Post#3 » by MJG » Thu Jan 15, 2009 3:27 pm

I've held onto a secret worry in the back of my mind that we'd somehow rally and finish with a low 30s win total and totally ruin our lottery positioning. This recent stretch has relieved that fear. Now it's just a question of whether merely among the worst, or actually THE worst. Go team!
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Re: Official Draft Positioning Thread 

Post#4 » by JWizmentality » Thu Jan 15, 2009 3:45 pm

I see us winning around 15-18 games. Miracle if we make it to 20.
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Re: Official Draft Positioning Thread 

Post#5 » by FreeBalling » Thu Jan 15, 2009 6:33 pm

Ping Pong Balls, I want in. I'm the master of this game. WHO WANTS SOME!!!!

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Re: Official Draft Positioning Thread 

Post#6 » by JWizmentality » Thu Jan 15, 2009 7:04 pm

FreeBalling wrote:Ping Pong Balls, I want in. I'm the master of this game. WHO WANTS SOME!!!!

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Haha, spiked a buddy of mine's drinks with 190 proof Everclear. Now that was a memorable game :lol:
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Re: Official Draft Positioning Thread 

Post#7 » by WizarDynasty » Thu Jan 15, 2009 11:26 pm

well i was a lil hazy on griffin but when i saw him do this post up power move where he is spinning into the laneand rises about a above the rim and drops it in...it told me he has better powermoves to basket that any player on the roster. I am Happy tapscott knows how to put the right people into the game in the final quarter for us to lose. I love how he took McGee and Blatche when they start to shut down the pick and roll and put in jamison and songalia..man that was classic. I am going to be so happy if we get that number on spot. Griffin is perfect for this team.
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Re: Official Draft Positioning Thread 

Post#8 » by Dat2U » Fri Jan 16, 2009 12:52 am

Code: Select all

Chances 1st  2nd  3rd  4th  5th  6th  7th  8th  9th 10th 11th 12th 13th 14th
1  250 .250 .215 .178 .357           
2  199 .199 .188 .171 .319 .123         
3  156 .156 .157 .156 .226 .265 .040         
4  119 .119 .126 .133 .099 .351 .160 .012       
5   88 .088 .097 .107      .261 .360 .084 .004       
6   63 .063 .071 .081           .439 .305 .040 .001     
7   43 .043 .049 .058                .599 .232 .018 .000     
8   28 .028 .033 .039                     .724 .168 .008 .000   
9   17 .017 .020 .024                          .813 .122 .004 .000   
10  11 .011 .013 .016                               .870 .089 .002 .000 
11   8 .008 .009 .012                                    .907 .063 .001 .000
12   7 .007 .008 .010                                         .935 .039 .000
13   6 .006 .007 .009                                              .960 .018
14   5 .005 .006 .007                                                   .982


If the Wizards have the worst record they have a:
25% chance at the 1st pick
46.5% chance at a top 2 pick
64.3% chance of getting a top 3 pick

If the Wizards have the 2nd worst record (current), they have a:
19.9% chance at the 1st pick
38.7% chance at a top 2 pick
55.8% chance of getting a top 3 pick

If the Wizards have the 3rd worst record, they have a:
15.6% chance at the 1st pick
31.3% chance at a top 2 pick
46.9% chance of getting a top 3 pick
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Re: Official Draft Positioning Thread 

Post#9 » by FreeBalling » Fri Jan 16, 2009 1:17 am

Dat2U wrote:

Code: Select all

Chances 1st 2nd 3rd 4th 5th 6th 7th 8th 9th 10th 11th 12th 13th 14th
1 250 .250 .215 .178 .357
2 199 .199 .188 .171 .319 .123
3 156 .156 .157 .156 .226 .265 .040
4 119 .119 .126 .133 .099 .351 .160 .012
5 88 .088 .097 .107 .261 .360 .084 .004
6 63 .063 .071 .081 .439 .305 .040 .001
7 43 .043 .049 .058 .599 .232 .018 .000
8 28 .028 .033 .039 .724 .168 .008 .000
9 17 .017 .020 .024 .813 .122 .004 .000
10 11 .011 .013 .016 .870 .089 .002 .000
11 8 .008 .009 .012 .907 .063 .001 .000
12 7 .007 .008 .010 .935 .039 .000
13 6 .006 .007 .009 .960 .018
14 5 .005 .006 .007 .982


If the Wizards have the worst record they have a:
25% chance at the 1st pick
46.5% chance at a top 2 pick
64.3% chance of getting a top 3 pick

If the Wizards have the 2nd worst record (current), they have a:
19.9% chance at the 1st pick
38.7% chance at a top 2 pick
55.8% chance of getting a top 3 pick

If the Wizards have the 3rd worst record, they have a:
15.6% chance at the 1st pick
31.3% chance at a top 2 pick
46.9% chance of getting a top 3 pick
Dat2U wrote:

Code: Select all

Chances 1st 2nd 3rd 4th 5th 6th 7th 8th 9th 10th 11th 12th 13th 14th
1 250 .250 .215 .178 .357
2 199 .199 .188 .171 .319 .123
3 156 .156 .157 .156 .226 .265 .040
4 119 .119 .126 .133 .099 .351 .160 .012
5 88 .088 .097 .107 .261 .360 .084 .004
6 63 .063 .071 .081 .439 .305 .040 .001
7 43 .043 .049 .058 .599 .232 .018 .000
8 28 .028 .033 .039 .724 .168 .008 .000
9 17 .017 .020 .024 .813 .122 .004 .000
10 11 .011 .013 .016 .870 .089 .002 .000
11 8 .008 .009 .012 .907 .063 .001 .000
12 7 .007 .008 .010 .935 .039 .000
13 6 .006 .007 .009 .960 .018
14 5 .005 .006 .007 .982


If the Wizards have the worst record they have a:
25% chance at the 1st pick
46.5% chance at a top 2 pick
64.3% chance of getting a top 3 pick

If the Wizards have the 2nd worst record (current), they have a:
19.9% chance at the 1st pick
38.7% chance at a top 2 pick
55.8% chance of getting a top 3 pick

If the Wizards have the 3rd worst record, they have a:
15.6% chance at the 1st pick
31.3% chance at a top 2 pick
46.9% chance of getting a top 3 pick



Dat you left off one part.

0% chance we will get to see the lotto balls.
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Re: Official Draft Positioning Thread 

Post#10 » by long suffrin' boulez fan » Fri Jan 16, 2009 2:29 am

FreeBalling wrote:
Dat2U wrote:

Code: Select all

Chances 1st 2nd 3rd 4th 5th 6th 7th 8th 9th 10th 11th 12th 13th 14th
1 250 .250 .215 .178 .357
2 199 .199 .188 .171 .319 .123
3 156 .156 .157 .156 .226 .265 .040
4 119 .119 .126 .133 .099 .351 .160 .012
5 88 .088 .097 .107 .261 .360 .084 .004
6 63 .063 .071 .081 .439 .305 .040 .001
7 43 .043 .049 .058 .599 .232 .018 .000
8 28 .028 .033 .039 .724 .168 .008 .000
9 17 .017 .020 .024 .813 .122 .004 .000
10 11 .011 .013 .016 .870 .089 .002 .000
11 8 .008 .009 .012 .907 .063 .001 .000
12 7 .007 .008 .010 .935 .039 .000
13 6 .006 .007 .009 .960 .018
14 5 .005 .006 .007 .982


If the Wizards have the worst record they have a:
25% chance at the 1st pick
46.5% chance at a top 2 pick
64.3% chance of getting a top 3 pick

If the Wizards have the 2nd worst record (current), they have a:
19.9% chance at the 1st pick
38.7% chance at a top 2 pick
55.8% chance of getting a top 3 pick

If the Wizards have the 3rd worst record, they have a:
15.6% chance at the 1st pick
31.3% chance at a top 2 pick
46.9% chance of getting a top 3 pick
Dat2U wrote:

Code: Select all

Chances 1st 2nd 3rd 4th 5th 6th 7th 8th 9th 10th 11th 12th 13th 14th
1 250 .250 .215 .178 .357
2 199 .199 .188 .171 .319 .123
3 156 .156 .157 .156 .226 .265 .040
4 119 .119 .126 .133 .099 .351 .160 .012
5 88 .088 .097 .107 .261 .360 .084 .004
6 63 .063 .071 .081 .439 .305 .040 .001
7 43 .043 .049 .058 .599 .232 .018 .000
8 28 .028 .033 .039 .724 .168 .008 .000
9 17 .017 .020 .024 .813 .122 .004 .000
10 11 .011 .013 .016 .870 .089 .002 .000
11 8 .008 .009 .012 .907 .063 .001 .000
12 7 .007 .008 .010 .935 .039 .000
13 6 .006 .007 .009 .960 .018
14 5 .005 .006 .007 .982


If the Wizards have the worst record they have a:
25% chance at the 1st pick
46.5% chance at a top 2 pick
64.3% chance of getting a top 3 pick

If the Wizards have the 2nd worst record (current), they have a:
19.9% chance at the 1st pick
38.7% chance at a top 2 pick
55.8% chance of getting a top 3 pick

If the Wizards have the 3rd worst record, they have a:
15.6% chance at the 1st pick
31.3% chance at a top 2 pick
46.9% chance of getting a top 3 pick



Dat you left off one part.

0% chance we will get to see the lotto balls.


I love it. A good conspiracy theory. Come to think of it, who audited the lottery when the Crabaliers got Le Crustacean?
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Re: Official Draft Positioning Thread 

Post#11 » by JWizmentality » Fri Jan 16, 2009 2:59 am

That looks kinda fishy. You mean as you go down to the 3rd worst record, your chances of even getting in the top three is slim? If the draft sim was up I'd run that and compare results.
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Re: Official Draft Positioning Thread 

Post#12 » by ZonkertheBrainless » Fri Jan 16, 2009 7:58 pm

Hrm, let's see... If you have the worst record you have a 25% chance of getting the 1st pick.

There's a 75% chance of not getting the first pick. Ergh, but then to calculate the chance of getting the second pick, assuming you haven't gotten the first, you have to know who got the first.

Assuming Chicago or somebody got the first pick, then there are still 995 combinations left, and you still have about a 25% chance of getting the second pick. That's the worst that could happen, if the second worst team gets the first pick, then there are only 801 combinations left and you have a 31% chance of getting the second pick.

So there's a 75% chance you don't get the 1st pick, and if you don't get the first pick there's a 69% to 75% chance you don't get the second pick either.

Assuming the 13th worst team gets the second pick, now there are 989 combinations left, so you have a 25.3% chance of getting the third pick. If the second worst team gets the first and the third worst team gets the second, then there are 1000 - 199 - 156 = 645 combinations left, giving you a 38.8% chance of getting the third pick. Man, these are lousy odds.

Oh, wait, I get how to calculate this now. Hold up. You have to go through each possible permutation and weight them according to probability... ugh. Where's my slide rule?
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Re: Official Draft Positioning Thread 

Post#13 » by ZonkertheBrainless » Fri Jan 16, 2009 8:08 pm

Hm... that comes out to a 53.5% chance of not getting either of the first two picks... Now let's see...
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Re: Official Draft Positioning Thread 

Post#14 » by ZonkertheBrainless » Fri Jan 16, 2009 8:12 pm

and a 35.7% chance of not getting the first, second, or third pick...
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Re: Official Draft Positioning Thread 

Post#15 » by ZonkertheBrainless » Fri Jan 16, 2009 8:25 pm

In comparison, the second worst team has an 82.5% chance of not getting the first or second pick,
a 46.8% chance of not getting the first, second, or third pick...

The third worst team has a 54% chance of not getting any of the top three picks.

So to sum up, here's the incentive to tank...
Going from the third to second worst team gets you an additional 7.2% chance of getting a top three pick.
Going from the second to absolute worst team gets you an additional 11.1% chance of getting a top three pick.
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Re: Official Draft Positioning Thread 

Post#16 » by Severn Hoos » Fri Jan 16, 2009 9:18 pm

Y'all may think I'm crazy, but I'm almost as interested in "tanking*" for the 2nd round pick than for the 1st. After all, when it comes to the ping pong balls, whatever happens happens. It's still a long shot that we'd get the #1 pick, even with the most combinations.

But there's no lottery for the 2nd round. And there's almost always 1st round guys (sometimes future stars) who slip through the 1st round and are invariably snatched with the first couple picks of the 2nd round. Last year I wanted Mario Chalmers - gone with the 4th pick of the 2nd round. In 2007, Carl Landry was the 1st pick of the second round. Verajao, Duhon, Kapono, Mason, Boozer, Hassell, and of course Arenas were all picked at the top of the 2nd round. Of course, you still have to choose wisely - there were a lot of duds picked right before and after those guys - but the same is true in the 1st round too.

Don't get me wrong - the difference between the 1st and 4th pick is much, much greater than the difference in the 31st & 34th. But it does make a difference to be able to get that guy who slips and can be a solid rotational player/starter. That high 2nd rounder may be pretty valuable after all.


* For the record, I don't want to see the team lose games on purpose. But I also don't want to see them run the few solid veterans we have into the ground either. Lots of minutes for the young guys, lots of close games, a few well-placed wins to keep the spirits up, and as many ping pong balls as possible. That's the recipe, as far as I'm concerned. (And a final PS - it looks like OKC has stepped up their play since adding Krstic. It is definitely not inconceivable that we could get the most ping pong balls after all.)
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Re: Official Draft Positioning Thread 

Post#17 » by Dat2U » Fri Jan 16, 2009 10:01 pm

Great point Sev, those high 2nd round picks usually have more value than the late 1st rounders b/c those contracts aren't guaranteed.

I just hope we don't waste our high 2nd rounder like we did the last time we had one. I wonder where Peter John Ramos is nowadays?
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Re: Official Draft Positioning Thread 

Post#18 » by miller31time » Fri Jan 16, 2009 10:06 pm

Dat2U wrote:I just hope we don't waste our high 2nd rounder like we did the last time we had one. I wonder where Peter John Ramos is nowadays?


Pretty sure he just handed me my Big Mac.
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Re: Official Draft Positioning Thread 

Post#19 » by Kanyewest » Fri Jan 16, 2009 10:47 pm

I thought the lottery was rigged by David Stern.
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Re: Official Draft Positioning Thread 

Post#20 » by JWizmentality » Fri Jan 16, 2009 10:50 pm

When last I checked, dude was dropping like 20/10 on 60% shooting in the Spanish league. Think he even got allstar game MVP too. Somebody look that up for me....I'm lazy.


Edit: Yup dude is ballin in the Spanish league averaging 18/10 and did in fact get the 2008 allstar game MVP.

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