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DC@OKC or .233@.250, sheeeeeeyiii....

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Re: DC@OKC or .233@.250, sheeeeeeyiii.... 

Post#101 » by hands11 » Fri Mar 6, 2009 7:36 am

GilArenas88 wrote:Well maybe Blatche would put up better stats if the guards would ever give a damn about giving the big men some good looks. God forbid this team ever tried to repost after failing the first time. The only player on this team that will get the ball in the post ona consistent basis is Jamison. It's been like this for years our wings and guards just look right through our big men whether its Haywood, McGee, Blatche, etc. When they do give them a rare touch in good post postion I think the bigs must freak based on the fact they rarely recieve the ball in good postioning. But oh whenever the the undersized tweener PF Jamison wants the ball in the post, no matter how *****y he's shooting, its a forgone conclusion. Now I like Jamison, but I'm tired of our team not giving our bigmen the chance to really flourish. Instead our bigman can no touches to sporadic, out of the flow touches. Its hard to get a good rythm when you have no clue when your going to get the ball next.


:clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap:

I've been saying that for 5 years, maybe 6. This is why I'm not down on this team right now. We just added Crit and we don't have the our main vet post center. My complaining will come after we get to see a healthy GA and Haywood on the floor or as we make trades if they are crappy one, which I don't think will happen. Save the complaining for next Nov/Dec cuz that's how long it's going to be before anything you see really maters. It's going to be about our post play and what we do with a PG position. The same thing it has been about since Hughes and GA.

Nothing is going to get solved this year. We maybe see some GA, but I don't think you will see what we need to see because you need GA and Haywood back and when they return, they will likely show some rust. You can always hope it's not like that but I wouldn't beat on it.
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Re: DC@OKC or .233@.250, sheeeeeeyiii.... 

Post#102 » by Chocolate City Jordanaire » Fri Mar 6, 2009 9:32 am

Dat2U wrote:
newslowsad wrote:Ivan is awful...

So the question is this: Who stays? Obviously, salary implications play a huge role but I'm talking about on a pure basketball level. Which of these players has shown that they deserve to be a part of this thing going forward? Judging by last night, I'd take Antawn Jamison and leave just about everyone else aside.


http://voices.washingtonpost.com/wizard ... _stay.html


Warning: Built up rant is coming!

Ivan is a tool. That's all I'll say about him.

Seriously though. This team is friggin 14-47. That's with Jamison AND Butler. I don't care how bad the supporting cast is, we should have a better record with two near all-star quality NBA players playing 40 minutes a night. That's as much as an indictment on Jamison & Butler as it is on the sorry no account supporting cast and the piss poor coaching. We should friggin beat an OKC team starting Kyle Weaver & Thabo Sefolosha on the perimeter with Earl Watson getting major minutes. I'd don't care if Butler was out, even WITH Durant & Green OKC was and is one of the worst teams in the league yet we still find a way to lose.

It shows that our wonderful veteran's performance and regular 20 & 10 a night isn't as impactful as we think it is. Nor is his "leadership" is as valuable as we think it is. I can't believe I still see folks touting Jamison's leadership this season as if it was actually making a difference.

This season basically told everyone what some of us already knew. This is Gilbert's & Brendan's team. They are the reason why we could maintain mediocrity over the past five years. Brendan on the defensive end & Gil offensively are the real difference makers. Everyone else, including our beloved 'Tough Juice', Mr. Leadership personified and Mr. "I Can't Feel My Jumpshot or Hernia" were just along for the ride.

Build around a healthy Gil & Brendan and surround that duo with players that complement their games. Focus on finding high IQ players not just skilled bigs that fit into the Princeton offense but can't do anything else or high flying athletes that play the game like they're still in high school.
McGee is a keeper due to upside & desire to work hard. McGuire is a keeper due to his high IQ and ability to do the little things.

Everyone esle is moveable. I don't trust Butler. IMO his relatively good health this season is only due to his willingness to mail it end half the damn time. I'm not against keeping him per se, but if he can bring us back talent (and he's likely to have the most trade value of anyone on our roster) then I'd make a move.

Use Jamison's productiveness & empty numbers to dump Songaila or Stevenson over the offseason. Trade Jamison while we still can. I have no idea why EG didn't take the Szczerbiak deal when he had the chance to.

Blatche & Young are trade bait. Blatche has decent value with his contract & youth and my wanting him to see more minutes is only to further stimulate his value in the eyes of other GMs. There's no reason whatsoever Songaila should be seeing 30 minutes a night. None, its inexcusable.

Young is what we thought he was. A one-trick gunner who lives to fadeway into his own goofy little world. If he can get Stevenson off our cap then by all means, let him go!

Most importantly, release Mike James & Etan Thomas. At first I was content to see them rot on the bench and let their contracts expire next season. But Lord knows, I don't want to risk any new coach potentially finding value in playing either of these scrubs. James has no business playing right now yet he got 39 minutes a few nights back. Just buy these two out. I don't care about them as expiring contracts, we really can't financially afford to trade them anyways. Just get them out of a Wizards uniform and off the roster.


Dat, your views are pretty much on point with how I feel about everything but Andray.

I'll put it very succinctly: If Jamison and Butler were two-way players the team would have a much better record. I would trade either guy if it would help the cap in the long haul.

I would build this team around Haywood, McGee, McGuire, Crittenton, Blatche, and by default; Gilbert. I'd trade Gil, too, if he were damaged goods and there'd be a taker anyway. Cold blooded, but just being honest. If I were fortunate enough as GM to get Blake Griffin in the draft, he'd be my PF and Jamison would be traded unless he could accept becoming a sixth man at SF/PF. Either that or Butler would be traded and Antawn would become starting SF. McGee, McGuire, and Blatche with Griffin would make one of the faux all stars immediately expendable.

Young is a one-trick pony that I'd keep until the team has a real, permanent coach. I can see him being tradeable for sure.

Andray is highly-skilled, can play SF/PF/C, and can defend. I think folks sell him way too short. Then again, you wonder what dumb thing will happen next with him. Since he's 22 now I'm giving him the benefit of a doubt and hanging on. Wiz got rid of Rasheed when he was 22 or so and that came back to bite them. Andray's PER is as good as Rasheed's was at the same age. If anything, I'd try to get Rasheed to tutor Andray.

What I would do if I were GM is possibly trade Jamison and Butler for Rip and Rasheed. I know I'd be giving up years, but I'd be getting guys who play both ends of the court and who've won a bunch in this league.

Actually, if I were GM I'd just pick the right coach and wait on everything above. It's not necessary to blow things up until you see what the new coaching leadership will value.

Last, I'd get rid of all the coaches on this coaching staff. Just move on and get some winners in here, please.
Bye bye Beal.
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Re: DC@OKC or .233@.250, sheeeeeeyiii.... 

Post#103 » by DaRealHibachi » Fri Mar 6, 2009 11:37 am

Ced67 wrote:
DaRealHibachi wrote:
AgentOvechkin08 wrote:Ivan has become delusional with all this losing, especially to OKC...

without Durant AND Green

I know we did not have butler but they were without the 4th leading scorer in the league and Jeff Green averaging 17 a game.


We suck, plain and simple...

What annoys me even more is the fact that Butler still thought he was an All-Star this year... I feel an All-Star should be able to carry his team to an certain extent, specially with someone like Jamison on his side...

Our Allstars simply aren't as good as they think they are, or even as good as we think they are...


The team around them is crap


OKC doesn't have a bad team...??? We lost games against the Knicks, Bulls, Bucks, Bobcats, Warriors etc. And we are much better than them talentwise, even without Gil and Haywood... You're giving Butler and Jamison waaaay too much credit... Dat2U pretty much sums up what I'm thinking... We shouldn't be this bad with both Butler and Jamison on this team...
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Re: DC@OKC or .233@.250, sheeeeeeyiii.... 

Post#104 » by ZonkertheBrainless » Fri Mar 6, 2009 2:14 pm

I remember reading somewhere that OKC has had a pretty good record after they fired their coach, don't recall but I think it was almost .450 or so.

I'm glad they gave Caron some games off with his "hamstring injury"...
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Re: DC@OKC or .233@.250, sheeeeeeyiii.... 

Post#105 » by hands11 » Sat Mar 7, 2009 6:41 pm

ZonkertheBrainless wrote:I remember reading somewhere that OKC has had a pretty good record after they fired their coach, don't recall but I think it was almost .450 or so.

I'm glad they gave Caron some games off with his "hamstring injury"...


I think the Hamstring is a made up or at least a stretch of an injury.

This is them tanking a few more game until they get GA back on the floor.

They are just giving CB a little rest so they could see some Blatche with a center.

Also, nice to see my Rasheed Wallace idea catching on a little. The adding Rip twist is interesting.

Basically, bringing the boys home.
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Re: DC@OKC or .233@.250, sheeeeeeyiii.... 

Post#106 » by fishercob » Sun Mar 8, 2009 2:03 pm

Dat2U wrote:
newslowsad wrote:Ivan is awful...

So the question is this: Who stays? Obviously, salary implications play a huge role but I'm talking about on a pure basketball level. Which of these players has shown that they deserve to be a part of this thing going forward? Judging by last night, I'd take Antawn Jamison and leave just about everyone else aside.


http://voices.washingtonpost.com/wizard ... _stay.html


Warning: Built up rant is coming!

Ivan is a tool. That's all I'll say about him.

Seriously though. This team is friggin 14-47. That's with Jamison AND Butler. I don't care how bad the supporting cast is, we should have a better record with two near all-star quality NBA players playing 40 minutes a night. That's as much as an indictment on Jamison & Butler as it is on the sorry no account supporting cast and the piss poor coaching. We should friggin beat an OKC team starting Kyle Weaver & Thabo Sefolosha on the perimeter with Earl Watson getting major minutes. I'd don't care if Butler was out, even WITH Durant & Green OKC was and is one of the worst teams in the league yet we still find a way to lose.

It shows that our wonderful veteran's performance and regular 20 & 10 a night isn't as impactful as we think it is. Nor is his "leadership" is as valuable as we think it is. I can't believe I still see folks touting Jamison's leadership this season as if it was actually making a difference.

This season basically told everyone what some of us already knew. This is Gilbert's & Brendan's team. They are the reason why we could maintain mediocrity over the past five years. Brendan on the defensive end & Gil offensively are the real difference makers. Everyone else, including our beloved 'Tough Juice', Mr. Leadership personified and Mr. "I Can't Feel My Jumpshot or Hernia" were just along for the ride.

Build around a healthy Gil & Brendan and surround that duo with players that complement their games. Focus on finding high IQ players not just skilled bigs that fit into the Princeton offense but can't do anything else or high flying athletes that play the game like they're still in high school.
McGee is a keeper due to upside & desire to work hard. McGuire is a keeper due to his high IQ and ability to do the little things.

Everyone esle is moveable. I don't trust Butler. IMO his relatively good health this season is only due to his willingness to mail it end half the damn time. I'm not against keeping him per se, but if he can bring us back talent (and he's likely to have the most trade value of anyone on our roster) then I'd make a move.

Use Jamison's productiveness & empty numbers to dump Songaila or Stevenson over the offseason. Trade Jamison while we still can. I have no idea why EG didn't take the Szczerbiak deal when he had the chance to.

Blatche & Young are trade bait. Blatche has decent value with his contract & youth and my wanting him to see more minutes is only to further stimulate his value in the eyes of other GMs. There's no reason whatsoever Songaila should be seeing 30 minutes a night. None, its inexcusable.

Young is what we thought he was. A one-trick gunner who lives to fadeway into his own goofy little world. If he can get Stevenson off our cap then by all means, let him go!

Most importantly, release Mike James & Etan Thomas. At first I was content to see them rot on the bench and let their contracts expire next season. But Lord knows, I don't want to risk any new coach potentially finding value in playing either of these scrubs. James has no business playing right now yet he got 39 minutes a few nights back. Just buy these two out. I don't care about them as expiring contracts, we really can't financially afford to trade them anyways. Just get them out of a Wizards uniform and off the roster.


Dat, I feel your frustration and I agree with a lot of what you said. But I'd like to point a couple of things out.

You say that Gil and Brendan are the most important parts of this team, but then say that even in their absence this record is unacceptable. Compare this squad to last year: first we had a healthy Brendan. Second, in Gil's absence, we had AD -- whose game had yet to completely fall apart -- who knew what he was doing, knew his limitations and didn't turn the ball over.

So now we have nothing resembling Brendan's consistency and "coach on the floor" at the center spot. And we have Mike James, who may just be the worst basketball player in the history of the universe instead of Gil/AD. Not only that, but instead of healthy/modestly productive Deshawn (who I admit, I'm tired of) we have N1on5 (TM hands11 2009) and Dom McGuire who is showing great progress, but isn't going to be any kind of primary option on offense.

Yes, the Wizards suck. It's mostly a talent thing. There is an added level of frustration because Tapscott plays James and Songaila too much, but they're still not much of a better team this year if McGee and Crit are getting all their minutes. It would be better to get them experience for the long run, but that's beside the point for the moment.

So yeah, BUtler's probably out third best player. But for his salary, that's OK. I think he can thrive in that role. Mike James is a complete CFP. That's OK. He likely won't play next year.

I would be much more concerned overall if Ernie had hired Thibs when we were 1-10 and this was our record, or if Ernie had given any indication that Tap was his guy moving forward. But instead, Ernie went to his loyal lieutenant and asked him to take one for the team -- deal with the frustration of a terrible season, do the press conferences, teach the kids what you can -- so that Ernie could get the long-term coach he wanted when he wanted.

The roster is going to get a talent infusion and or/major overhaul this summer, plus a new voice to lead it. I think the Wizards will have a better year next year than any season under EJ -- likely in the upper half of the East.
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Re: DC@OKC or .233@.250, sheeeeeeyiii.... 

Post#107 » by fishercob » Mon Mar 9, 2009 12:53 pm

FWIW, Philly (30-30 before the game) lost to the same OKC team w/o Green and Durant last night -- by 15.
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Re: DC@OKC or .233@.250, sheeeeeeyiii.... 

Post#108 » by Severn Hoos » Mon Mar 9, 2009 3:51 pm

fishercob wrote:The roster is going to get a talent infusion and or/major overhaul this summer, plus a new voice to lead it. I think the Wizards will have a better year next year than any season under EJ -- likely in the upper half of the East.


Wow - bold statement, and one I find myself agreeing with when I really think about it.

Look at the current standings in the East. I certainly don't expect the Wiz to be better than the Cavs or the Celtics next year. (Though their windows could be closing - C's because of age, Cavs if LeCrab leaves.) Orlando will probably be better than the Wiz (provided SuperDwight plays a full season). But does anyone else in the East really scare you?

The Hawks are currently 4th - and I think the Wiz at full strength are definitely better than ATL. Plus, Atlanta has some decision to make with renewals (Bibby, Williams, Johnson) - they may look very different in the next year or two. Miami will still have Wade, but beyond that? Does JO have a renaissance, or is he effectively done? And can Detroit recover? Are any of those three teams guaranteed to be significantly over .500 next year? I don't think so (especially when they won't be able to pile up wins against the Wiz next year! ;-) )

Philly? Chicago? NJ? Milwaukee? Nope, no one there scares me.

So when you say "upper half of the East", I assume you mean among playoff teams, and I think the 4th seed is definitely within reason. As is 46 wins, which would exceed any of the EJ seasons.

Add Gilbert back in (huge contingency that he's in the ballpark of where he was at his peak) with Haywood, a Top 5 pick (especially Griffin...), an improved Dom, a lot of pine time for James & Etan, AND A NEW COACH, and I would put that team up against anyone outside the Top 3 in the East. And when you factor in age, injuries, and team chemistry (see: Sixers), anything can happen.
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Re: DC@OKC or .233@.250, sheeeeeeyiii.... 

Post#109 » by fishercob » Mon Mar 9, 2009 4:26 pm

Yeah, Sev. I just have to figure that one of these years the Wiz won't be the unlucky ones when it comes to injury. And when you add Gil, Brendan, a lotto pick and a new coach to this team they're going to be able to play with anyone on a given night.
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Re: DC@OKC or .233@.250, sheeeeeeyiii.... 

Post#110 » by Dat2U » Mon Mar 9, 2009 7:34 pm

fishercob wrote:
Dat, I feel your frustration and I agree with a lot of what you said. But I'd like to point a couple of things out.

You say that Gil and Brendan are the most important parts of this team, but then say that even in their absence this record is unacceptable. Compare this squad to last year: first we had a healthy Brendan. Second, in Gil's absence, we had AD -- whose game had yet to completely fall apart -- who knew what he was doing, knew his limitations and didn't turn the ball over.


So now we have nothing resembling Brendan's consistency and "coach on the floor" at the center spot. And we have Mike James, who may just be the worst basketball player in the history of the universe instead of Gil/AD. Not only that, but instead of healthy/modestly productive Deshawn (who I admit, I'm tired of) we have N1on5 (TM hands11 2009) and Dom McGuire who is showing great progress, but isn't going to be any kind of primary option on offense.

Yes, the Wizards suck. It's mostly a talent thing. There is an added level of frustration because Tapscott plays James and Songaila too much, but they're still not much of a better team this year if McGee and Crit are getting all their minutes. It would be better to get them experience for the long run, but that's beside the point for the moment.

So yeah, BUtler's probably out third best player. But for his salary, that's OK. I think he can thrive in that role. Mike James is a complete CFP. That's OK. He likely won't play next year.

I would be much more concerned overall if Ernie had hired Thibs when we were 1-10 and this was our record, or if Ernie had given any indication that Tap was his guy moving forward. But instead, Ernie went to his loyal lieutenant and asked him to take one for the team -- deal with the frustration of a terrible season, do the press conferences, teach the kids what you can -- so that Ernie could get the long-term coach he wanted when he wanted.

The roster is going to get a talent infusion and or/major overhaul this summer, plus a new voice to lead it. I think the Wizards will have a better year next year than any season under EJ -- likely in the upper half of the East. [/quote]

I think the upper half of the east next year an optimistic goal. This core has never been anything better than the 5th seed. And that was when the East was at its weakest! As Jamison & Caron have experienced unnecessary wear & tear this season, it may be a stretch to believe they'll last 40 minutes for 82 games next year as they get older. I love Gil but his health is a best a questionable proposition. If we want to view this roster in a perfect situation, then yes, being a 4 seed is possible.

But when has this roster ever had a perfect situation? That's why I'm totally against keeping this core together. It's like asking for that miracle that will never happen. Gil could play 75 games next year and be healthy and close to his old self...but we'd lose Caron for half the season or Jamison gets another bulky knee which limits his contributions which would put back squarely in the 2nd tier of the East.

I just think we have a bad mix. Too many offensive minded players, not enough size at key positions. Too many one-dimensional guys. A terrible medical staff. Were also poorly coached team no doubt. Even before the great Eddie Jordan got canned.

I don't understand the desire to maintain status quo. At 14-49, we've got two supposed all-stars, five guys that many on here have gotten excited about and believe are big part of our future and two veteran role players that many believe can be part of a winning team. Yet were on pace to having the worst record in franchise history and becoming the first team in forever to not win a single game against a division opponent.

We lack talent, yes, but were not supposed to be this bad. I didn't mind the tanking at first but this is the worst type of tanking. Tanking with veterans and outside of a potential future role player in Dom McGuire, the development of our young talent has been an abject failure. Vets & coaches throwing the kids under the bus yet EG is supposedly worried about McGee's mindset regarding "extended failure"? Are you kidding me? This whole season has been one big extended failure!

As far as I'm concerned this team has a bunch of players with an over-inflated opinion of themselves (AJ, CB, DS, N1), a fanbase with an over-inflated opinion of the roster and its talent and a franchise ran by a bunch of idiots in the front office.

Maybe if the reward for sucking was Blake Griffin, that would soften my tone abit but at this point I wouldn't be surprised if we mess that up somehow with Blake either getting 10 minutes a game behind our "great leader of men", or playing out of position at C with Wood getting traded so we can have more offense on the floor. I just don't trust this front office to get it right anymore.

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