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Official Trade Thread IX (Visitors Post Trades HERE!)

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Re: Official Trade Thread IX (Visitors Post Trades HERE!) 

Post#1401 » by closg00 » Sat Dec 5, 2009 12:22 pm

Wrong thread
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Re: Official Trade Thread IX (Visitors Post Trades HERE!) 

Post#1402 » by LyricalRico » Sat Dec 5, 2009 12:40 pm

dnk wrote:I'd like to think Butler and Foye are worth more than PURE salary dumps.

EDITED TO ADD: Even though I actually do think trading Butler would be addition by subtraction due to the way he absolutely kills offensive possessions, I hope EG can get a little more value than that trade.


You're right - Butler and Foye do have more value than just a salary dump. But if the team is so wrapped up in getting every last ounce of value in a trade, we might not make a move at all and that would be even more disastrous.

There's also the issue of trading for guys who are good enough to deserve minutes but there not being enough to go around. I don't really consider it "value" if the guys we get back are pushing us over the luxury tax as they sit on the bench just watching. If it's a choice between having guys wasting away on the bench or retaining Haywood, Miller, McGuire, and Boykins all without paying any luxury tax - I'll take the tax savings.
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Re: Official Trade Thread IX (Visitors Post Trades HERE!) 

Post#1403 » by LyricalRico » Sat Dec 5, 2009 1:23 pm

Here's a deal that can work after 12/15.

Wizards trade: Butler, Stevenson, and Critt
Wizards receive: Bayless, Outlaw, Jaric, and POR first

Blazers trade: Miller, Webster, Bayless, Outlaw, and 2010 first
Blazers receive: Butler, Stevenson, Critt, and Conley

Grizzlies trade: Conley and Jaric
Grizzlies receive: Miller and Webster

TRADE ID 5311572

Memphis gets a veteran PG to lead that team and get a young SF signed longterm in case they don't match an offer for Gay next summer (they don't give up a pick because they take back salary). Portland restructures their lineup to better fit Roy's style of play.

Washington immediately saves $2M and saves another $5M next summer (closer to $4M after signing the pick). We don't save as much as with other deals, but we do get the "value" that people keep asking for.
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Re: Official Trade Thread IX (Visitors Post Trades HERE!) 

Post#1404 » by nate33 » Sat Dec 5, 2009 2:16 pm

eltacoman wrote:if we get in danger of not making the playoffs by the trade deadline

DeShawn Stevenson
Mike James
Randy Foye
for
Elton Brand

Sigh.

How many times do we have to go over this people? The Wizards are not trading expiring contracts for long contracts. It's just not going to happen. Any trades based on that concept are a complete waste of time and bandwidth.
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Re: Official Trade Thread IX (Visitors Post Trades HERE!) 

Post#1405 » by Chocolate City Jordanaire » Sat Dec 5, 2009 3:13 pm

LyricalRico wrote:
dnk wrote:I'd like to think Butler and Foye are worth more than PURE salary dumps.

EDITED TO ADD: Even though I actually do think trading Butler would be addition by subtraction due to the way he absolutely kills offensive possessions, I hope EG can get a little more value than that trade.


You're right - Butler and Foye do have more value than just a salary dump. But if the team is so wrapped up in getting every last ounce of value in a trade, we might not make a move at all and that would be even more disastrous.

There's also the issue of trading for guys who are good enough to deserve minutes but there not being enough to go around. I don't really consider it "value" if the guys we get back are pushing us over the luxury tax as they sit on the bench just watching. If it's a choice between having guys wasting away on the bench or retaining Haywood, Miller, McGuire, and Boykins all without paying any luxury tax - I'll take the tax savings.


How about Butler and Crittenton for Al Harrington and Toney Douglas?

Harrington can play 3 or 4 as a sixth man. Douglas is a more durable PG who can score and defend off the bench.

Thoughts?
Bye bye Beal.
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Re: Official Trade Thread IX (Visitors Post Trades HERE!) 

Post#1406 » by closg00 » Sat Dec 5, 2009 3:42 pm

^^^^

Reasonable offer CCJ that I would do, but I suspect that the Knicks would like to see what they have in Douglas. I would be interested in any trade that nets us a serious upgrade at the PG position while dumping Caron.
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Re: Official Trade Thread IX (Visitors Post Trades HERE!) 

Post#1407 » by nate33 » Sat Dec 5, 2009 4:22 pm

All these trades suck.

If we trade Butler, we need cap relief and a young player who is almost a sure thing to be a legit starter either immediately or very soon. I'm not at all interested in trading him for veteran expiring contracts like Camby or Harrington. I'm not interested in trading him for late draft picks. We need either a lotto pick plus an expiring, or we need a good young player like Batum or Fernandez.

The only trade I even remotely like in the past few pages is Hoopalotta's trade for Batum and A.Miller. But even there, I would prefer to just acquire Batum and expiring contracts. If they won't give up Blake and Outlaw, then make it a 3-way where Miller goes someplace else in exchange for expiring contracts. The whole idea of trading Butler is to make sure we get a young player plus a whole lot of financial savings.
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Re: Official Trade Thread IX (Visitors Post Trades HERE!) 

Post#1408 » by Pollinator » Sat Dec 5, 2009 4:34 pm

Would the T-wolves consider trading Al Jefferson for Butler now that Jefferson is still not 100% from his ACL and they have Kevin Love back?

Would they consider Jefferson for Butler and Blatche? (Also works under Trade Checker)

Jefferson for Butler/Blatche/1st round pick?

We're getting close to 20 games into the season- how much more time does the front office want to give Butler to see if he can fit into Flip Saunders' system? I'm all for trading him at this point.

Edited to add: just saw that a couple of the guys on the Wolves site came up with the Jefferson for Butler/Blatche or Butler/McGee idea on their own... certainly it wasn't unanimous, plus that was mid-November, and Butler sure as heck hasn't done much since then to up his trade value...
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Re: Official Trade Thread IX (Visitors Post Trades HERE!) 

Post#1409 » by Hoopalotta » Sat Dec 5, 2009 4:50 pm

nate33 wrote:
The only trade I even remotely like in the past few pages is Hoopalotta's trade for Batum and A.Miller. But even there, I would prefer to just acquire Batum and expiring contracts. If they won't give up Blake and Outlaw, then make it a 3-way where Miller goes someplace else in exchange for expiring contracts. The whole idea of trading Butler is to make sure we get a young player plus a whole lot of financial savings.


The case could be made that my trade is in fact not a good one either, yes. And really, you'd only even think about A.Miller coming in if M.Miller came in and showed us some signs of cohesion and you liked Gil as a combo guard long term. Failing that, expirings are better, it's true.

Edit to add:

And if we pull that off, we need to go grab Brad Miller in the off-season for a deep pine role. Why?

Brad Miller
Andre Miller
Mike Miller

It'd be B.A.M. Miller! Awesome, I'm seeing Miller Lite middle school giveaway promotions.
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Re: Official Trade Thread IX (Visitors Post Trades HERE!) 

Post#1410 » by Chocolate City Jordanaire » Sat Dec 5, 2009 5:24 pm

nate33 wrote:All these trades suck.

If we trade Butler, we need cap relief and a young player who is almost a sure thing to be a legit starter either immediately or very soon. I'm not at all interested in trading him for veteran expiring contracts like Camby or Harrington. I'm not interested in trading him for late draft picks. We need either a lotto pick plus an expiring, or we need a good young player like Batum or Fernandez.

The only trade I even remotely like in the past few pages is Hoopalotta's trade for Batum and A.Miller. But even there, I would prefer to just acquire Batum and expiring contracts. If they won't give up Blake and Outlaw, then make it a 3-way where Miller goes someplace else in exchange for expiring contracts. The whole idea of trading Butler is to make sure we get a young player plus a whole lot of financial savings.


nate, Toney Douglas scores 19.7 points per 36 minutes and has a PER of 15.3. I am quite certain he is a good young player. (Envision a Ben Gordon or Derrick Fisher type player next to Gil or off the bench). Harrington expires and his PER is currently 19.3. He's averaging 23 and 7 per 36 minutes. He was part of the team with Golden State that knocked off a number 1 playoff seed, Dallas, a few years back.

nate, you can express an opinion that these deals all suck, but I think you're frustrated and not thinking out of the box. Harrington's a player that facilitates blowing it up.

The thing about Harrington is he'd enable the Wizards to next deal Jamison.

So far, I think the best idea I've seen returns Fernandez in a Butler deal. Jamison, Young, and filler to the Blazers for Fernandez, Howard's contract, and Filler might go over well. Flip's not going to use Jamison at SF and Blatche at PF. He's married to lots of minutes for Caron and Antawn as the forwards, and we've seen for years that it doesn't work.

I'm ready for no Butler or Jamison, with a healthy Arenas next to go.
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Re: Official Trade Thread IX (Visitors Post Trades HERE!) 

Post#1411 » by LyricalRico » Sat Dec 5, 2009 5:42 pm

nate33 wrote:I'm not interested in trading him for late draft picks. We need either a lotto pick plus an expiring, or we need a good young player like Batum or Fernandez.


Batum - 25th overall
Fernandez - 24th overall

So you don't want late firsts, you want good young players...who were themselves taken with late firsts. I'm just saying...
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Re: Official Trade Thread IX (Visitors Post Trades HERE!) 

Post#1412 » by nate33 » Sat Dec 5, 2009 5:48 pm

LyricalRico wrote:
nate33 wrote:I'm not interested in trading him for late draft picks. We need either a lotto pick plus an expiring, or we need a good young player like Batum or Fernandez.


Batum - 25th overall
Fernandez - 24th overall

So you don't want late firsts, you want good young players...who were themselves taken with late firsts. I'm just saying...

Do I really need to bother posting how many duds were drafted in the 20's? I'm not trading Butler for a 25% shot at a player who may pan out 2 or 3 years down the road to be starting-caliber.
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Re: Official Trade Thread IX (Visitors Post Trades HERE!) 

Post#1413 » by Hoopalotta » Sat Dec 5, 2009 6:02 pm

Chocolate,

I see Toney Douglas is shooting a guard 50% from the field (60% on his 2-pt'ers), but never gets fouled and doesn't pass much (though he doesn't really turn the ball over either). Can't say I've seen the Knicks this year though. At least interesting. But there's no way that York'll take on salary and risk the 'summer bonanza!' that their front office has been promising/hoping for some years now. I think Walsh would get tar n' feathered. So they only have bad contracts as the weightier part of the filler really (Curry and Jeffires). I mean, if they were offering Gallinari and we were willing to rebuild and trade Jamison for an expiring.....
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Re: Official Trade Thread IX (Visitors Post Trades HERE!) 

Post#1414 » by Ruzious » Sat Dec 5, 2009 6:19 pm

Chocolate City Jordanaire wrote:
nate33 wrote:All these trades suck.

If we trade Butler, we need cap relief and a young player who is almost a sure thing to be a legit starter either immediately or very soon. I'm not at all interested in trading him for veteran expiring contracts like Camby or Harrington. I'm not interested in trading him for late draft picks. We need either a lotto pick plus an expiring, or we need a good young player like Batum or Fernandez.

The only trade I even remotely like in the past few pages is Hoopalotta's trade for Batum and A.Miller. But even there, I would prefer to just acquire Batum and expiring contracts. If they won't give up Blake and Outlaw, then make it a 3-way where Miller goes someplace else in exchange for expiring contracts. The whole idea of trading Butler is to make sure we get a young player plus a whole lot of financial savings.


nate, Toney Douglas scores 19.7 points per 36 minutes and has a PER of 15.3. I am quite certain he is a good young player. (Envision a Ben Gordon or Derrick Fisher type player next to Gil or off the bench). Harrington expires and his PER is currently 19.3. He's averaging 23 and 7 per 36 minutes. He was part of the team with Golden State that knocked off a number 1 playoff seed, Dallas, a few years back.

nate, you can express an opinion that these deals all suck, but I think you're frustrated and not thinking out of the box. Harrington's a player that facilitates blowing it up.

The thing about Harrington is he'd enable the Wizards to next deal Jamison.

So far, I think the best idea I've seen returns Fernandez in a Butler deal. Jamison, Young, and filler to the Blazers for Fernandez, Howard's contract, and Filler might go over well. Flip's not going to use Jamison at SF and Blatche at PF. He's married to lots of minutes for Caron and Antawn as the forwards, and we've seen for years that it doesn't work.

I'm ready for no Butler or Jamison, with a healthy Arenas next to go.

But think about it with no boxes involved - You're trying to be able to dump a player (Jamison) by getting someone exactly like him (Harrington). And there are very few teams that would even consider trading for Jamison - and probably none that would give you a player or draft choice that you'd want. And you want a Ben Gordon or Derrick Fisher type? Could you pick two players with more different styles and different strengths and weaknesses? I'd like a Dr J or Moses Malone type to play next to Harrington. :)
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Re: Official Trade Thread IX (Visitors Post Trades HERE!) 

Post#1415 » by Chocolate City Jordanaire » Sat Dec 5, 2009 7:07 pm

All I want is a deal that will change the chemistry of this team.

Harrington would be playing in a contract year and very much capable of dropping 40 (did it a couple weeks ago) or being a spark off the bench (as he was in one of the greatest playoff upsets ever).

I think Douglas is above all a winner. I don't really know enough about his games, having not watched him in the ACC or with New York. I've read about what other veterans say about him. I've read about his NFL brother. I know his parents are quite supportive. I know the kid scouts opponents like a veteran.

http://www.nbadraft.net/players/toney-douglas

I also know this about this board: I generally say things that are immediately discounted as bad ideas until a coach or GM tries them. The scouts say he's Ben Gordon/Charlie Bell, with better defense, but WTF do I know?
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Re: Official Trade Thread IX (Visitors Post Trades HERE!) 

Post#1416 » by yungal07 » Sat Dec 5, 2009 7:17 pm

LOL at Toney Douglass.

He's a decent defender, but there's no way you trade Butler and only get him back.

CCJ, please keep in mind when you bring up these PER numbers is that these guys are playing in D'Antoni's junk offense. Harrington is often playing center, and Douglass is often playing the 2 and I've even seen him playing the 3 if D'Antoni is really being nuts that day. That system caters to offensive players, and makes them look much better than they are.

In a real offense (and yes, we actually run a real one), those guys wouldn't be nearly as productive offensively.
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Re: Official Trade Thread IX (Visitors Post Trades HERE!) 

Post#1417 » by Chocolate City Jordanaire » Sat Dec 5, 2009 8:00 pm

yungal07 wrote:LOL at Toney Douglass.

He's a decent defender, but there's no way you trade Butler and only get him back.

CCJ, please keep in mind when you bring up these PER numbers is that these guys are playing in D'Antoni's junk offense. Harrington is often playing center, and Douglass is often playing the 2 and I've even seen him playing the 3 if D'Antoni is really being nuts that day. That system caters to offensive players, and makes them look much better than they are.

In a real offense (and yes, we actually run a real one), those guys wouldn't be nearly as productive offensively.


Which is the same way Jamison and Butler became "all stars". System and minutes.

You guys want value in return, but you don't want to reevaluate the true value of both Butler and Jamison.
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Re: Official Trade Thread IX (Visitors Post Trades HERE!) 

Post#1418 » by Ruzious » Sat Dec 5, 2009 8:31 pm

Chocolate City Jordanaire wrote:
yungal07 wrote:LOL at Toney Douglass.

He's a decent defender, but there's no way you trade Butler and only get him back.

CCJ, please keep in mind when you bring up these PER numbers is that these guys are playing in D'Antoni's junk offense. Harrington is often playing center, and Douglass is often playing the 2 and I've even seen him playing the 3 if D'Antoni is really being nuts that day. That system caters to offensive players, and makes them look much better than they are.

In a real offense (and yes, we actually run a real one), those guys wouldn't be nearly as productive offensively.


Which is the same way Jamison and Butler became "all stars". System and minutes.

You guys want value in return, but you don't want to reevaluate the true value of both Butler and Jamison.

Remember, I'm the one saying you won't get anything good for Jamison. You might be right that a lot of us are over-valuing Caron's trade value, but he can be a heckuva player, and if we can't get high value for him, keep him, and re-evaluate in the offseason.
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Re: Official Trade Thread IX (Visitors Post Trades HERE!) 

Post#1419 » by yungal07 » Sat Dec 5, 2009 10:04 pm

Ruzious wrote:
Chocolate City Jordanaire wrote:
yungal07 wrote:LOL at Toney Douglass.

He's a decent defender, but there's no way you trade Butler and only get him back.

CCJ, please keep in mind when you bring up these PER numbers is that these guys are playing in D'Antoni's junk offense. Harrington is often playing center, and Douglass is often playing the 2 and I've even seen him playing the 3 if D'Antoni is really being nuts that day. That system caters to offensive players, and makes them look much better than they are.

In a real offense (and yes, we actually run a real one), those guys wouldn't be nearly as productive offensively.


Which is the same way Jamison and Butler became "all stars". System and minutes.

You guys want value in return, but you don't want to reevaluate the true value of both Butler and Jamison.

Remember, I'm the one saying you won't get anything good for Jamison. You might be right that a lot of us are over-valuing Caron's trade value, but he can be a heckuva player, and if we can't get high value for him, keep him, and re-evaluate in the offseason.


I agree, although Jamison is not a "system" player as CCJ suggests. He'd be productive on any team because his skillset/abilities would fit in any offensive system. Jamison's problem is that he's getting up there in age and he doesn't defend.

You could make the case that Caron is a system player, but even with that been said, I think he has a ton more value than a crappy package of harrington/douglass.

Just for **** and giggles, I'll propose that on the Knicks board, and we'll see the responses we get. I'm sure it's way more "hell yea" than "hell no".
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Re: Official Trade Thread IX (Visitors Post Trades HERE!) 

Post#1420 » by Chocolate City Jordanaire » Sat Dec 5, 2009 10:30 pm

yungal, we actually agree--or, you're more correct. Jamison's getting points in any system. Defense is his weakness. I agree with you 100% there.

I'll be interested to see what they say on the Knicks board. If they say hell yeah, then my idea gives Butler away.
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