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Official vent your frustration with the organization thread

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Re: Official vent your frustration with the organization thread 

Post#121 » by BYRDMAN RULZ » Fri Jun 26, 2009 6:45 pm

MDStar wrote:
BYRDMAN RULZ wrote:
There were a lot of teams pining to get Rubio and he could have fallen in our laps. I admit I was really pissed when we did not draft Blair with the 2nd round pick. Even if he needs surgery its a 2nd round pick and its a low risk. The fact that the Spurs snapped him up speaks volumes to me. I was in a state of shock when they did not pick him. It's clear now that we already had a deal in place to move the pick and that is who Houston wanted.


I always wondered how a pick can be considered good or bad before they even play a minute in the NBA. Now I know, it's the Spurs!

Give me a break. Sure the Spurs are a model franchise, but don't act as if all of thier moves are gold. Last year they picked George Hill with guys like Chalmers, Mbah a Moute and Weaver still available. In 07 they took Splitter (who may be good if he ever decides to step foot in the NBA) with guys like Landry, Gasol and Sessions still on the board. In 06 they traded out the draft completley. In 05 they took Ian Mahinmi over better players like David Lee, C.J Miles, Monta Ellis, Ryan Gomes and Louis WIlliams. The same complaints theat we have in the draft, the Spurs fans can say the same things.

THe draft is a crapshoot for every team, not just the Wizards.

Basically my point is, just becuase the Spurs took Blair doesn't mean he's automatically going to be great. He might be but there's a much higher possiblility that he won't.


Give me a break the Wiz were penny wise and dollar foolish, they let a beast on the boards get away so the could save money.

You can say what you want taking Blair was a low risk and potentially high reward proposition. The Spurs are gearing up to win another championship. I am not sure what the Wiz are gearing up for. You cannot sit hear and tell me that the Wiz will even make it to the Eastern conference finals next year even if we stay healthy.
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Re: Official vent your frustration with the organization thread 

Post#122 » by Dat2U » Fri Jun 26, 2009 7:02 pm

fishercob wrote:He has a point though, Dat. For someone who is constantly banging the drum of the importance of the "value of the #5 pick" can you imagine how pissed you'd be if the Wiz had picked Rubio and he said "no thanks, I'm going back to Spain for a year or two." Not only would we have nothing on the court to show for the pick, we'd have zero leverage with which to move it.


I would have no problem with keeping Rubio and waiting on him. When Portland drafted Fernandez, they had to wait a year on him... I'd say he was worth the wait.

But personally, I believe Rubio & his agent are playing hardball. They are trying to force a trade. And honestly I think there more upset about Flynn being picked at #6 and having to compete with another rookie PG than anything else. Bottom line it serves Rubio no benefit to delay the clock on starting on his rookie deal. That's the main reason he wanted in the draft instead of waiting for 2010 or 2011 in the first place. He's looking at that 2nd contract.

All that being said, I had Curry & Rubio almost being rated as equals on my draft board. Personally I would have taken Rubio and tried to get something outMinny (Miller or #18) and take Curry at #6.
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Re: Official vent your frustration with the organization thread 

Post#123 » by fishercob » Fri Jun 26, 2009 7:22 pm

Dat2U wrote:
fishercob wrote:He has a point though, Dat. For someone who is constantly banging the drum of the importance of the "value of the #5 pick" can you imagine how pissed you'd be if the Wiz had picked Rubio and he said "no thanks, I'm going back to Spain for a year or two." Not only would we have nothing on the court to show for the pick, we'd have zero leverage with which to move it.


I would have no problem with keeping Rubio and waiting on him. When Portland drafted Fernandez, they had to wait a year on him... I'd say he was worth the wait.


Come on. Rudy was picked what --18th? 20th? This was the #5 pick in the draft (as you kept reminding us)! How can you not get instant return for that?

But personally, I believe Rubio & his agent are playing hardball. They are trying to force a trade. And honestly I think there more upset about Flynn being picked at #6 and having to compete with another rookie PG than anything else. Bottom line it serves Rubio no benefit to delay the clock on starting on his rookie deal. That's the main reason he wanted in the draft instead of waiting for 2010 or 2011 in the first place. He's looking at that 2nd contract.


While starting the clock sooner has benefits, it's not the be all end all. His salary at #5 makes paying his buyout that much more onerous -- and he'll have nowhere near the marketing opportunities in Minnesota that he would in a major market. Going back to Spain burns down the buyout, so there is definite benefit of doing so.
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Re: Official vent your frustration with the organization thread 

Post#124 » by Kanyewest » Fri Jun 26, 2009 7:23 pm

Dat2U wrote:
Bad comparison. No one ever thought Navarro was a potential star. There were numerous questions regarding whether his game could translate to the NBA. The Wizards did eventually get Crittenton for the pick we got for Navarro, but I would call it a downgrade to tell you the truth.

Regarding the other teams that passed on Rubio, OKC is a solid front office. Rubio wasn't a good fit in OKC b/c neither him or Westbrook are good outside shooters which was one of OKC's biggest needs. Geoff Pertrie in Sacramento used to have a solid rep but he's made alot of questionable moves in recent years and is in trouble from some accounts. And we all know GM Chris Wallace in Memphis doesn't have a clue of what he's doing.


I agree that Rubio is much more valuable than JCN because he is only 18 and has the potential to be a great player. But teams are looking to get bargains when trading for foreigners that play abroad, especially since they know that they have no intention for playing for that team. Heck, JCN would have been a good fit with the Wizards coming off the bench but JCN was in the position of power to decide where he wanted to play for.

Rubio and his agent had stated before the draft they he had no intentions of playing in DC. I don't think the Wizards were going to get good value for Rubio because other teams knew he had no intention of playing here. And for every season that the Wizards wait, their core gets a bit older. Rubio may even lose a bit of his value as he gets older and his game doesn't develop.

So you say OKC is smart for not taking Rubio because he wouldn't fit in with Westbrook? So how exactly is Rubio a better fit with Arenas? Sure Arenas shoots the 3 better but both of them need the ball in their hands to be effective. Westbrook is probably a bit more athletic than Arenas and more capable of playing shooting guard. If you believe the Wizards messed up, so did the Thunder.

I have to disagree that Sacramento's front office is not competent anymore even if they had a few bad moves; every team does. The trades of Artest, Bibby, and Salmons indicate that the Kings are in tank mode; much like us they lost the Blake Griffin sweepstakes. Perhaps, Evans is the real deal; after all he's more athletic than Rubio and probably will be a more capable defender.

I think EG knew that Harden and Evans weren't going to be there at #5. So instead of taking the best player on the board; whether it be Rubio, Curry, Flynn, or Hill; he chose to use the trade to address the shooting guard position and dump salary that will make it possible to resign players in the coming years. Sure the Wizards already have Nick Young, but last time I checked, they had a competent point guard.
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Re: Official vent your frustration with the organization thread 

Post#125 » by Kanyewest » Fri Jun 26, 2009 7:50 pm

Here was the Wizards top 4 according to Wiz Insider

Blake Griffin, Tyreke Evans, Ricky Rubio and James Harden (with Curry ahead of Hasheem Thabeet)
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Re: Official vent your frustration with the organization thread 

Post#126 » by Agent0_MVP » Fri Jun 26, 2009 9:09 pm

Im so tired all of you guys that know nothing about the Wizards or basketball. We are now considered CONTENDERS. We even got an A by Ford for what we did with the draft. Whens the last time that happened. Only 10 teams got A's. Keep venting, because unless its what I believe...YOU ARE ALL WRONG!!

WASHINGTON WIZARDS GRADE: A
Round 1: None

Round 2: None

Analysis: Washington had the No. 5 pick in the draft but traded it, along with Etan Thomas, Darius Songaila and Oleksiy Pecherov, to the Wolves for Randy Foye and Mike Miller. The Wizards understood they were unlikely to get a player at No. 5 who could crack their rotation, and they wanted to be serious contenders right away in the East. I think the addition of Foye and Miller puts them there.

The Wolves were willing to pay significantly more than any other team, giving up two solid starters. I don't think the Wizards could have done any better in getting value for the No. 5 pick.


Chad Ford covers the NBA for ESPN Insider.
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Re: Official vent your frustration with the organization thread 

Post#127 » by Kanyewest » Fri Jun 26, 2009 9:12 pm

While I think the Wizards did well for themselves, Chad Ford isn't going to convince any doubters; he's had his fair share of mistakes in his prognosis before.
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Re: Official vent your frustration with the organization thread 

Post#128 » by yungal07 » Fri Jun 26, 2009 9:27 pm

So let's compile the list of analysts/commentators who liked what the Wizards did for the draft:

- Eric Musselman
- David Aldridge
- Jeff Van Gundy
- John Hollinger
- Chad Ford
- Colin Cowherd
- Dan Shaughnessy (Celtics beat reporter for the Boston Globe)

Here are the ones who didn't like it:

- Mike Wilbon

I know which side I prefer to be on.
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Re: Official vent your frustration with the organization thread 

Post#129 » by Agent0_MVP » Fri Jun 26, 2009 9:31 pm

yungal07 wrote:So let's compile the list of analysts/commentators who liked what the Wizards did for the draft:

- Eric Musselman
- David Aldridge
- Jeff Van Gundy
- John Hollinger
- Chad Ford
- Colin Cowherd
- Dan Shaughnessy (Celtics beat reporter for the Boston Globe)

Here are the ones who didn't like it:

- Mike Wilbon

I know which side I prefer to be on.



Thank YOU!

See someone is smart here on these boards!
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Re: Official vent your frustration with the organization thread 

Post#130 » by miller31time » Fri Jun 26, 2009 9:32 pm

yungal07 wrote:So let's compile the list of analysts/commentators who liked what the Wizards did for the draft:

- Eric Musselman
- David Aldridge
- Jeff Van Gundy
- John Hollinger
- Chad Ford
- Colin Cowherd
- Dan Shaughnessy (Celtics beat reporter for the Boston Globe)

Here are the ones who didn't like it:

- Mike Wilbon

I know which side I prefer to be on.


I never like this argument. I'm not saying you or your opinion are wrong but would you like to see a list of all the analysts and commentators who thought Eddie Jordan was a top-notch coach and should still be the Wizards' head coach?
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Re: Official vent your frustration with the organization thread 

Post#131 » by Kanyewest » Fri Jun 26, 2009 9:33 pm

I would add Bill Simmons to the list of those who didn't like it.
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Re: Official vent your frustration with the organization thread 

Post#132 » by Mr. Grundle » Fri Jun 26, 2009 9:57 pm

So many in the national media think this is a good trade because, yes, in the short run, it does make us a better team. They say it makes us "contenders" in the east....contenders meaning playoff team. And they're probably right. The additions of Foye and Miller along with us getting healthy probably gets us back in the playoffs.

In the eyes of the casual observer, that's an A+ offseason for the Wiz. Going from a 19-win team to a playoff team.

But that's not good enough for us. The hardcore fans are disappointed because we know in reality that this team isn't good enough to REALLY contend for a title. Chances are we'll lose to Cleveland again in the playoffs. We certainly can't hang with the Lakers in a 7-game series.

So yeah, we improved our team, but not enough. And when it doesn't work out, when we end up having to start over again, we realize that we'll have no young standout prospects to try and build around because we traded them away for 1-year rentals or sold them for cash.

That's what a Rubio or an Evans or a Curry is. Hope for the future when the inevitable, that the hardcore fans know in their hearts, finally plays out - that this current team as constructed is not good enough to win a championship.

So in our eyes, there's no hope for the present or the immediate future. Man, that's depressing.

Oh well, at least we'll be competitive again, right?
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Re: Official vent your frustration with the organization thread 

Post#133 » by yungal07 » Fri Jun 26, 2009 10:28 pm

miller31time wrote:
I never like this argument. I'm not saying you or your opinion are wrong but would you like to see a list of all the analysts and commentators who thought Eddie Jordan was a top-notch coach and should still be the Wizards' head coach?


There's absolutely an argument that can be made to support Eddie Jordan. Just because a majority of us on realgm think EJ was not a good coach doesn't amount to anything. It's an opinion -- some just hold more weight than others.
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Re: Official vent your frustration with the organization thread 

Post#134 » by miller31time » Fri Jun 26, 2009 10:46 pm

yungal07 wrote:
miller31time wrote:
I never like this argument. I'm not saying you or your opinion are wrong but would you like to see a list of all the analysts and commentators who thought Eddie Jordan was a top-notch coach and should still be the Wizards' head coach?


There's absolutely an argument that can be made to support Eddie Jordan. Just because a majority of us on realgm think EJ was not a good coach doesn't amount to anything.


I'm not asking if there's an argument to be made. The majority of analysts didn't make an argument. They stated a subjective fact. I'm asking if you thought firing him was the right move. If you think it was, then you apparently disagree with the method you just presented (the analyst/commentator knows best approach). If you think firing EJ wasn't the right move, then your stance is consistent with the method you used.
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Re: Official vent your frustration with the organization thread 

Post#135 » by doclinkin » Fri Jun 26, 2009 10:53 pm

For my part I'm all Swine Flu on this one, all over the map.

In the short term I like just fine the acquisition of MiMi and NotRoye. We haven't had a pure shooter at the 2-guard since-- well since Roger Mason on a good night, which means we've never had one next to Gil. Both are an ideal fit for what Flip Saunders likes to do, as jumpshooters who play well on- and off-ball. Both can pass with few miscues. And neither will --by themselves-- kill our defensive improvement, since both are smart enough and active enough to play sufficient team defense that we can get by on offensive efficiency and output. Our scheme alone will improve our D somewhat. Pretty low bar to hurdle, but that's where we start. Ultimately however you outscore your opponent, you win.

Miller and Foye each have a productive versatility (not a Jeffries-esque ability to _nearly_ not-suck at any of five positions) that will allow the coach to tinker incessantly until he sees a mix of sets he likes. Then adjust on the fly against a given match-up once the players are all on the same page. Both are smart enough that they can pick it up quickly and help others re-learn some basic concepts.

As far as championship is concerned, no single player we could add in this draft would improve our championship chances all that much. Rubio would be a nice addition in a few year's time after further seasoning, or a way to fleece a team for a future pick, but if we'd added him this year (unlikely due to the buy out, and secondary market issues) he wasn't bound to help as much as either of the two guys we landed. This year. Even the players I liked best I saw as useful role-players on a championship squad, not franchise keystones. Mortar between the bricks. Curry and Blair would have been fine.

But the disappointment is about building an infrastructure for long term success, not patching holes on a year by year basis. Seems like we should be able to anticipate problems and address ahead of time, build something based on a plan, not simply run behind ourselves to fix problems.

So we get a one-year rental of MikeMillz; can extend Foye in his role as back-up to Gil, but if he's playing well I dunno why he would take the deal. And even so, then we're trying to convince both Haywood and Millions to play at a reasonable price. Again, if we play well it's harder to do that.

The rest. The agitation on whether we got the best deal we could. We could have done better. That's almost always true. In part Ernie was in a tough position, a position of his own making, in that he knew he wanted to add veterans first and in order to gain the sanction of the fanbase he felt he had to warn them ahead of time that this was coming down the pike. But that meant his counterparts knew that, and his bargaining position was slightly weakened. A team in 'win now' mode will cut some corners in their long-range planning, even overpay for short-term players.

Some part of the urgency is not his own. Ernie tends towards patience. But it's fairly clear Abe wants to win sooner rather than later. Who knows how much time he has to really enjoy the game, yes he deserves to see the team give it a good run. Whatever helps him load up for that is a positive. Even if it's cash in pocket to help buy down the costs of the overpay tariff, and allow for bold(-er, or -ish) moves later. And following a 19-win season where our Youth Brigade did little to avert the losses, it's fair to distrust the impact of rookies as a general class, if not specifically this draft class in particular.

BUt as a longtime fan, what can I say, fans like draft picks. And the track record of selling that 2nd round pick to pay for a future contract, well ain't great. Nets us Dee Brown and Juan Dixon. Contributing to a 19-win season.

Offseason ain't over. Trades and Free Agents are possible. But the draft always tends to represent even more than the oncourt production. A funny thing. It represents potential itself. No big deal, fans just sorta like to believe in The Future. Hell we're still waiting on Andray. And McGee carries the weight of our franchise Championship dreams, and he's barely done diddly yet. So.

Doesn't have to be rational to be true.
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Re: Official vent your frustration with the organization thread 

Post#136 » by Agent0_MVP » Fri Jun 26, 2009 11:05 pm

You cant get rid of the talent we have now and wish for the future. You say we cant fill the holes year by year, but what do you think the Cavs and all the rest of the elite teams have done. EXACTLY! I would never give up my team for any future players. These are my Wizards and I want to see us win with who we have. I dont care about next season until we are eliminated from the playoffs. Until then....We Commit, We Connect and we show our Character! We fight for a championship!!!
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Re: Official vent your frustration with the organization thread 

Post#137 » by Agent0_MVP » Fri Jun 26, 2009 11:07 pm

miller31time wrote:
yungal07 wrote:So let's compile the list of analysts/commentators who liked what the Wizards did for the draft:

- Eric Musselman
- David Aldridge
- Jeff Van Gundy
- John Hollinger
- Chad Ford
- Colin Cowherd
- Dan Shaughnessy (Celtics beat reporter for the Boston Globe)

Here are the ones who didn't like it:

- Mike Wilbon

I know which side I prefer to be on.


I never like this argument. I'm not saying you or your opinion are wrong but would you like to see a list of all the analysts and commentators who thought Eddie Jordan was a top-notch coach and should still be the Wizards' head coach?


Eddie was not a bad coach, nor a great one...but without the injuries we would not be where we are now. Everything happens for a reason. I would take EJ as a coach any day..but things are finally working for us because they are meant to happen like this and maybe thats just a sign of things to come!
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Re: Official vent your frustration with the organization thread 

Post#138 » by LyricalRico » Fri Jun 26, 2009 11:12 pm

Ernie > everybody else

:nod:
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Re: Official vent your frustration with the organization thread 

Post#139 » by Kanyewest » Fri Jun 26, 2009 11:44 pm

doclinkin wrote:For my part I'm all Swine Flu on this one, all over the map.

In the short term I like just fine the acquisition of MiMi and NotRoye. We haven't had a pure shooter at the 2-guard since-- well since Roger Mason on a good night, which means we've never had one next to Gil. Both are an ideal fit for what Flip Saunders likes to do, as jumpshooters who play well on- and off-ball. Both can pass with few miscues. And neither will --by themselves-- kill our defensive improvement, since both are smart enough and active enough to play sufficient team defense that we can get by on offensive efficiency and output. Our scheme alone will improve our D somewhat. Pretty low bar to hurdle, but that's where we start. Ultimately however you outscore your opponent, you win.

Miller and Foye each have a productive versatility (not a Jeffries-esque ability to _nearly_ not-suck at any of five positions) that will allow the coach to tinker incessantly until he sees a mix of sets he likes. Then adjust on the fly against a given match-up once the players are all on the same page. Both are smart enough that they can pick it up quickly and help others re-learn some basic concepts.

As far as championship is concerned, no single player we could add in this draft would improve our championship chances all that much. Rubio would be a nice addition in a few year's time after further seasoning, or a way to fleece a team for a future pick, but if we'd added him this year (unlikely due to the buy out, and secondary market issues) he wasn't bound to help as much as either of the two guys we landed. This year. Even the players I liked best I saw as useful role-players on a championship squad, not franchise keystones. Mortar between the bricks. Curry and Blair would have been fine.

But the disappointment is about building an infrastructure for long term success, not patching holes on a year by year basis. Seems like we should be able to anticipate problems and address ahead of time, build something based on a plan, not simply run behind ourselves to fix problems.

So we get a one-year rental of MikeMillz; can extend Foye in his role as back-up to Gil, but if he's playing well I dunno why he would take the deal. And even so, then we're trying to convince both Haywood and Millions to play at a reasonable price. Again, if we play well it's harder to do that.

The rest. The agitation on whether we got the best deal we could. We could have done better. That's almost always true. In part Ernie was in a tough position, a position of his own making, in that he knew he wanted to add veterans first and in order to gain the sanction of the fanbase he felt he had to warn them ahead of time that this was coming down the pike. But that meant his counterparts knew that, and his bargaining position was slightly weakened. A team in 'win now' mode will cut some corners in their long-range planning, even overpay for short-term players.

Some part of the urgency is not his own. Ernie tends towards patience. But it's fairly clear Abe wants to win sooner rather than later. Who knows how much time he has to really enjoy the game, yes he deserves to see the team give it a good run. Whatever helps him load up for that is a positive. Even if it's cash in pocket to help buy down the costs of the overpay tariff, and allow for bold(-er, or -ish) moves later. And following a 19-win season where our Youth Brigade did little to avert the losses, it's fair to distrust the impact of rookies as a general class, if not specifically this draft class in particular.

BUt as a longtime fan, what can I say, fans like draft picks. And the track record of selling that 2nd round pick to pay for a future contract, well ain't great. Nets us Dee Brown and Juan Dixon. Contributing to a 19-win season.

Offseason ain't over. Trades and Free Agents are possible. But the draft always tends to represent even more than the oncourt production. A funny thing. It represents potential itself. No big deal, fans just sorta like to believe in The Future. Hell we're still waiting on Andray. And McGee carries the weight of our franchise Championship dreams, and he's barely done diddly yet. So.

Doesn't have to be rational to be true.


EG already feels the infrastructure is already in place and is pretty set in most of his positions. They already have young talent with Crittenton, Young, McGuire, Blatche, McGee. I guess EG didn't see anyone in the 2nd round better than what he's got.

IMO EG sees Foye as the starting shooting guard for this team; not Mike Miller. Sure he's undersized but look at EG's past transactions with Butler and Jamison. They were on the smaller size for their positions and were considered nothing more than quality bench players but have had success here. I expect the Wizards to sign Foye to an extension this offseason so they don't lose him in 2009-10.

I would have loved to have had a draft pick in the 2nd round and taken one of those big men from the Big East (Cunningham, Blair, Sam Young). EG has gotten good value with his past 2nd round picks (Blatche and McGuire). But the guys EG usually finds take 2-3 years before they are ready to contribute.

Just MAYBE they are thinking long term. They are saving the money not only when Foye, Haywood, McGuire, and Miller become free agents but also when Butler and Young enter free agency the following year. The trade helped erase some bad contracts that EG handed out before (Thomas and Pecherov). Maybe there's a trade down the line that the Wizards can do that puts the team over the top (ie trading Mike James at the trade deadline for what you need).
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Re: Official vent your frustration with the organization thread 

Post#140 » by FreeBalling » Sat Jun 27, 2009 12:01 am

fishercob wrote:
barelyawake wrote:Yeah well, I've been told that once but too upset to remember that!!! lol...

OK, but seriously, Phoenix and Toronto are rebuilding. We could have gotten Bosh or Amare.


Clearly. :roll:


It seems clear to me that Abe is just fielding a team to win a title using the TAX level as a guide line. Abe might be able to do it. You never know.

In any business risk is a factor, large contracts attract big business, using your experience as PROOF you can deliver.

I've done several large contracts in my life time over 21 million, the biggest being with Huge's Network and Digital Equipment Corporation my profit margin was low but the ROI was increased by service revenue making up for a low margin. Just winning the contract got me 4 new Fortune 100 accounts and my sales were up 300% in two years.


Forbes rankes the Wizards 15th in 2008 Team Value 353 Mill and the Knicks leading the way @ 613 Mill

1-Yr Value Chg. 2%
Ann. Value Chg.2 14%
Debt/Value3 47% Includes area debt.
Revenue4 $118 mil
Operating Inc.5 $14.9 mil
Player Expenses6 $66 mil
Gate Receipts7 $35 mil
http://www.forbes.com/sportsmoney/lists ... Value.html

For a top 10 media market in the U.S. Abe sure does under perform.

It's very clear on the Forbes page, Wins to player-Cost-Ratio. Adding better players turns a profit. http://www.forbes.com/sportsmoney/lists ... 22873.html
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