Official vent your frustration with the organization thread

[FreeBalling]

Here is a good example of a playoff team over the cap.

See the Wins to player-Cost-Ratio.

http://www.forbes.com/lists/2008/32/nba ... 20844.html

[fishercob]

Okaaaay. So what does that have to do with my post that you quoted?

[jimij]

I understand all of the hand wringing over the draft and Ernie's shortsightedness in not waiting to trade the pick and selling the 2nd rounder but seriously I think most posters (Lyrical notwithstanding) are truly missing the point.

I don't give rat's @ss who we draft this year in either round the only two things that make us a championship contender over the next three to five years are:

1. Health
2. The reality of Flip being a far superior coach to EJ (or so many of us think)

The draft picks would be nice but the #5 wasn't going to contribute in the short term and Blair was never going to push us over the top. It's nice to speculate on what we could have traded the #5 pick for but I've got no problem with the trade given that I still think that Foye is going to be better than anyone picked in that slot. I was upset that we didn't pick Blair because it seemed too good to be true that he fell that far, but (IMO) its obvious that the roster isn't finalized and I still think we'll have another quality big prior to the season using our remaining spare parts (i.e. James expiring deal, Nick Young). Plus Blair would have been at best our fourth best big behind Haywood, Blatche and McGee (yes I still believe in Blatche now that he has a decent coach) so realistically I just don't see him as the missing piece to a championship.

It all comes down to is Arenas really a top ten player and can McGee develope into a legit all-star. those are the two most important questions we've got for our short term and long-term future.

For myself, I'm excited as I can possibly be for next season. The draft is done and I'm moving on.

[FreeBalling]

Okaaaay. So what does that have to do with my post that you quoted?

This was my 1st post in the vent room, I'm venting about Abe and the way he runs the Company.

I thought you agreed about getting Bosh,

My point was to spend money to make money. I'm just posting some data that backs up my point.

We keep selling the picks, Abe is not going to compeite with the big boys in F.A. B/C of the TAX so we get the slim pickings but we sell the picks. (Pulling out my hair.)

I'm just pissed, I'll get over it.

[doclinkin]

But the disappointment is about building an infrastructure for long term success, not patching holes on a year by year basis. Seems like we should be able to anticipate problems and address ahead of time, build something based on a plan, not simply run behind ourselves to fix problems.

EG already feels the infrastructure is already in place and is pretty set in most of his positions. They already have young talent with Crittenton, Young, McGuire, Blatche, McGee. I guess EG didn't see anyone in the 2nd round better than what he's got.

[zip]

Just MAYBE they are thinking long term. They are saving the money not only when Foye, Haywood, McGuire, and Miller become free agents but also when Butler and Young enter free agency the following year. The trade helped erase some bad contracts that EG handed out before (Thomas and Pecherov). Maybe there's a trade down the line that the Wizards can do that puts the team over the top

Maybe... but considering those bad contracts were inked by Ernie, it would indicate that the team has only recently started to think long term. If at all. Or that if they were thinking wrong term before, they were in error.

And since we're over the lux tax it will be mighty difficult to re-up everybody all at once. Etan and Pech were expiring contracts. If you don't want them they were gone by the end of the year anyway. Thinking to the end of the year isn't the kind of 'long-term' I'm asking for. Now if Miller and Randy Foye were _both_ Restricted free agents coming off the low rookie contract, I can see it working. You could re-up MikeMil at a low price long term. But he gets paid $9millers this year, you can't extend him and still save money.

Here's the best case scenario where we improve and still ink all players on a good deal (relative to the market value):

--We re-up Foye early, just because he wants the security and because he might not get the play time to earn a huge contract if he's on the bench behind Gil or trying to play the PG like he says he sees himself best. Yes he had a notable duel with DWade, maybe he banks on the 2010 FA market to set a high price for his services, but realistically Flip's system likes to share the ball, there are fewer statistical standouts in that kind of system.

--Mike Miller is 29. He's been on losing squads and bad attitude squads with a ton of young puppies, but has only sniffed the playoffs once. Here we have a solid locker room, with hard-working gym rats like himself, good humor, calm smart coach. He's earned a ton of money, put up stats, what he says he wants most is to win. Could be we play very very well, he's all the fit we think he can be, and we make a real run in the playoffs. Tantalizingly close. Not quite there. Could be he decides to sign for whatever we can afford to stick around a good situation and help take this squad over the top. Not get moved again.

--Brendan continues to get underestimated except by teams who get in a bidding war for frontline superstars, and who land them. Gil's new PG emphasis features the big guy and feeds him touches. He's happy, productive, appreciated gets just due in media. Brendan sees the writing on the wall, sees unhappy players elsewhere and-- now-beloved in DC-- re-ups with a lockerroom of solid character guys at a fair market price.

So okay in that Perfect Storm scenario, playing and winning here in DC becomes sufficiently rewarding that we get a discount on the guys we picked up. Seems less like a plan, and more like letting the chips fall where they may. Never know though, JVMcG and Dray may have breakout superstar years, Jamison becomes a trade piece, Haywood becomes expendable, we land a top star in a Sign and Trade-- booom: dynasty. Okay, you never know.

I'm just saying it's tough to judge this move today, can only see how it plays out AFTER this coming season to know if it was worth it long term. From here it looks like it could very well be just a one-year move for the best solution available in a 'win now' scenario.

Hey winning right now is fun. So is winning alot, for a long time.

[Hoopalotta]

Certainly all that would be nice, I mean no one could argue against hoping that that would happen. I have a few ideas though:

A) I think there is a fair chance that Miller is here for just one year unless he is willing to do as you mention and sign for a good cheapish deal. He has some more years ahead, but I think, certainly for the Wiz, we're looking more for efficiency from him than any kind of big numbers.

It's my opinion that he is not going to start and will be the sixth man at about 24 minutes a game or so. That's just a hunch, and based off everyone being healthy, so if there is an injury, the minutes would average out to more. One of him or Caron (who is supposedly getting down to 210 pounds) will probably play about ten minutes a game or so at the 2.

I don't think we could spend $5 to sign Miller unless it was a two year deal or so, and there's no way he'll go for that. I expect him to put up modest numbers with good percentages.

B) I think inking Foye this off season would be great with his incentive being for the reasons you just mentioned.

However, I think that he is going to get some serious playing time in the context of this deep team. I expect he will crush NY and start at the two, swinging down for backup minutes behind Gill, with those minutes hopefully coinciding with Miller and Caron on the floor. That's pretty decent play making and ball handling right there.

The only way I could see NY being a spot starter is if he comes really focused on the defense, because Foye is just way too polished and dynamic to be compared to otherwise. He's not that efficient in total, but I think that could change on this team (as someone mentioned around here somewhere, if he could star to get fouls at a higher clip, he's fixed the whole thing). I don't think he's going to shoot 36% from downtown next year.

He attacks. A very aggressive drive game he's got. The 82 games numbers show that he doesn't get assisted all that much as these things go and he does still take it to the hole (28% inside shots I think it was). He leads the league in getting blocked on those shots, but still. I think he's our fourth option overall, but if Gill gets hurt, he's the engine, if not the first option. I just like guys who are fundamentally sound and attack off the dribble like that. He just couldn't carry the load as the number 2 option in 'Sota with the whole Portland trade issue and the injury in the second year.

Again, this is just my hunch, but very hard to start NY over him unless Young turns into some kind of shut down guy. But even then, I think Foye would get plenty of burn at the 2-guard.

Signing him for about $6-$7 million a year would be a great move before the season starts I think, but I would agree it would be hard for him to put up huge numbers here and it might not be more than that next year to lock him.

I have more thoughts on the back court, but this is enough for now.

[lupin]

For my part I'm all Swine Flu on this one, all over the map.

In the short term I like just fine the acquisition of MiMi and NotRoye. We haven't had a pure shooter at the 2-guard since-- well since Roger Mason on a good night, which means we've never had one next to Gil.

Doc, how do you define pure shooter? Are we talking pure chucker or pure Arvis Hayes? I mean, Foye only shot 40% last year. And he's a midget at the 2. Wow, can't play Rubio and Arenas together, but Foye is ok? $6m a year for re-signing a guy with a PER below 15? Whaaa?

[Chocolate City Jordanaire]

He has a point though, Dat. For someone who is constantly banging the drum of the importance of the "value of the #5 pick" can you imagine how pissed you'd be if the Wiz had picked Rubio and he said "no thanks, I'm going back to Spain for a year or two." Not only would we have nothing on the court to show for the pick, we'd have zero leverage with which to move it.

This whole Rubio discussion is conjecture and it's as if he's the only option they had at 5.

Jonny Flynn went 6 to the same team. Wiz could have had him. All the stuff about DA saying the Wizards didn't want any more young guys in the lockerroom wouldn't apply to him. His dad's a minister and Jonny Flynn, like young Curry, the number 7, to me seems mature beyond his years.

What I HATE is the Wizards let veterans tell them don't bring any young guys. Well I would think a GM brings in talent. I would have brought Curry or even Rubio or Flynn thinking one of them might be taking Gil's job (forcing me to trade Gil) because they're good. At 32, I could have had Summers, Young, Calathes, Derrick Brown. Not just Blair. All the stuff about his knees ... FINE. He wasn't the only good player available.

Bottom line is Washington didn't want ANY young guys and and ALL THEY WANTED TO DO WAS RELIEVE CAP PRESSURE having gotten Miller and Foye.

My problem with Grunfeld's actions are that he had his mind made up, he played his hand way early, and he did things the way he did.

I think Aldridge is wrong about their not being anybody at 5 that would helped. Nate's figure of 3.8 mil saved IIRC from cap money just totally ignores Gil and AJ being the reason they're in tax territory. For a 19-win team it's uncacceptable.

This season let's see how mediocrity works aout.

[Hoopalotta]

Foye had a 17 PER at the 2-guard but had a 12 PER at the point. It seems a lot of the swing guards are that way, such as Jarret jack.

And he was banged up too.

[Chocolate City Jordanaire]

Blair wouldn't get minutes over Blatche or McGee. Most of all the poor guy would be on crutches by the time he steps out of Dullest Airport and on a wheelchair when he enters Verizon Center.

Yep.

Bad knees + overweight + Wizards medical staff =

How about Gilbert's knees, him opting out hurt, and being offered 127MIl only to graciously accept 111Mil =

FAIL

Taking a flier on a #32 pick who you're not giving more than 2 years a meager 500K = Risk low potential reward high.

[Chocolate City Jordanaire]

So let's compile the list of analysts/commentators who liked what the Wizards did for the draft:

- Eric Musselman
- David Aldridge
- Jeff Van Gundy
- John Hollinger
- Chad Ford
- Colin Cowherd
- Dan Shaughnessy (Celtics beat reporter for the Boston Globe)

Here are the ones who didn't like it:

- Mike Wilbon

I know which side I prefer to be on.

I think they're all wrong.

Hiring Flip was a good move.

Foye and Miller will help a whole bunch with their shooting and passing.

But what none of those guys are thinking about is anything beyond this season. For the so-called savings you still have to resign Haywood, Foye, and Miller; but it's highly doubtful you get all three signed.

For all their thoughts of nobody helping the Wizards, just this past season watching Rose, Mayo, Westbrook, Gordon, Love, Lopez, Chalmers and at least 4 or 5 other rookies have positive impacts I think all those people above are spewing party line.

It's all knee jerk from last season.

Last season the young guys lacked professionalism and pissed off the vets. Well IMO the vets made a ton of jack and got their asses handed to them worse than the young guys who were "unprofessional" would have had they played big minutes. Those same shotjacking veterans were exposed as the defensive seives they've always been, but only this time without Haywood they were terrible.

All those above would be superficial enough to say it was the young guys that lost games and they had too many young guys already.

Personally, a MUCH BETTER APPROACH would have been to send Nick Young with expirings for Vince Carter. Draft a mature rookie like Jonny Flynn. To hell with Rubio or Curry just because theyve been dismissed by you EG supporters and DA jockers. I like DA a lot but I bet he's wrong as hell this time.

Chad Ford will change his tune, watch and see.

[Kanyewest]

Maybe... but considering those bad contracts were inked by Ernie, it would indicate that the team has only recently started to think long term. If at all. Or that if they were thinking wrong term before, they were in error.

I don't know if necessarily Ernie's fault that the contract were bad. Yes it was debatable to resign Etan Thomas in the 2004 offseason and maybe Abe wanted Etan around so he could read more of his poetry. But Grunfeld couldn't forsee that he would have a leaking aortic valve that would make him untradeable. Same goes for DSong and his back surgery (even though he is still serviceable). Plus economic times and an injury to one GIlbert Arenas has affected the financial assets of this franchise.

And since we're over the lux tax it will be mighty difficult to re-up everybody all at once. Etan and Pech were expiring contracts. If you don't want them they were gone by the end of the year anyway. Thinking to the end of the year isn't the kind of 'long-term' I'm asking for. Now if Miller and Randy Foye were _both_ Restricted free agents coming off the low rookie contract, I can see it working. You could re-up MikeMil at a low price long term. But he gets paid $9millers this year, you can't extend him and still save money.

From my understanding the Wizards did cut their overall salary. According to hoopshype, Foye and Miller make a combined 13.25 while the trio of big men plus what it would take to sign the #5 pick would have been made 14.4 (hoopsworld indicates that the pick would have cost 2.7 million and hoopshype says the big men salary before Etan's trade kicker equal 11.7). That means they saved double of the difference of those salaries, which would be 2.3 million.

Here's the best case scenario where we improve and still ink all players on a good deal (relative to the market value):

--We re-up Foye early, just because he wants the security and because he might not get the play time to earn a huge contract if he's on the bench behind Gil or trying to play the PG like he says he sees himself best. Yes he had a notable duel with DWade, maybe he banks on the 2010 FA market to set a high price for his services, but realistically Flip's system likes to share the ball, there are fewer statistical standouts in that kind of system.

I agree that the Wizards should extend Foye right now much like the Wizards did when they extended Caron Butler prior to the 05-06 season.

--Mike Miller is 29. He's been on losing squads and bad attitude squads with a ton of young puppies, but has only sniffed the playoffs once. Here we have a solid locker room, with hard-working gym rats like himself, good humor, calm smart coach. He's earned a ton of money, put up stats, what he says he wants most is to win. Could be we play very very well, he's all the fit we think he can be, and we make a real run in the playoffs. Tantalizingly close. Not quite there. Could be he decides to sign for whatever we can afford to stick around a good situation and help take this squad over the top. Not get moved again.

I feel like someone is going to offer him more than he's worth a la Jason Kapono, Kyle Korver, etc. I would consider resigning him if he's truly what we need or it may just be cheaper to re-sign the younger Dominic McGuire (who happens to be a better defender).

--Brendan continues to get underestimated except by teams who get in a bidding war for frontline superstars, and who land them. Gil's new PG emphasis features the big guy and feeds him touches. He's happy, productive, appreciated gets just due in media. Brendan sees the writing on the wall, sees unhappy players elsewhere and-- now-beloved in DC-- re-ups with a lockerroom of solid character guys at a fair market price.

While Haywood's value on this team is very high for the Wizards, I just don't see teams throwing big money at him.

1) He probably won't put up numbers that a GM or the fans would get excited about (ie 3 blocks a game or 12 rpg, 14 ppg) throughout the course of the season). On average, a common NBA fan would pick these centers over Haywood.

Dwight Howard
Amare Stoudemire
Shaquille O'Neal
Andrew Bogut
Al Horford
Nene
Yao Ming
Andrew Bynum
Tyson Chandler
Al Jefferson
Greg Oden
Andris Biedrins
Chris Kaman
Kendrick Perkins
Hasheem Thabeet (At least Memphis fans will buy the hype for 2 years)

While Nate's analysis will prove otherwise for a lot of these centers, maybe we should hold off proving that Haywood is actually a top 10 center to keep his value low.

2) Is it wise for another team to break the bank on someone to spend 9-10 mil a year on a guy who is going to be older than 30? Especially on a position that tends to break down with age?

3) Haywood does address most of the Wizards deficiencies BUT would is he as valuable to team that struggles on the offensive end?

I guess it just takes one foolish team like Cleveland with Hughes and New York with Jared Jeffries.

I'm just saying it's tough to judge this move today, can only see how it plays out AFTER this coming season to know if it was worth it long term. From here it looks like it could very well be just a one-year move for the best solution available in a 'win now' scenario.

Hey winning right now is fun. So is winning alot, for a long time.

I think we can get a bit excited about getting into the playoffs next year. I don't see the Wizards climbing the summit in 1 year but getting there will make it more possible to get there with the added experience.

I guess it won't be as fun to get to the playoffs because most of the experts have us going there anyways. But the Wizards can get an upset or two going to make it an interesting run in the playoffs.

[doclinkin]

For my part I'm all Swine Flu on this one, all over the map.

In the short term I like just fine the acquisition of MiMi and NotRoye. We haven't had a pure shooter at the 2-guard since-- well since Roger Mason on a good night, which means we've never had one next to Gil.

Doc, how do you define pure shooter? Are we talking pure chucker or pure Arvis Hayes? I mean, Foye only shot 40% last year. And he's a midget at the 2. Wow, can't play Rubio and Arenas together, but Foye is ok? $6m a year for re-signing a guy with a PER below 15? Whaaa?

?
Eh. By 'Pure Shooter' I'm talking Mike Miller and his 40% career average from 3. I personally expect him to beat out the competition at 2-guard, the size rebounding and assists are a good fit with our starters, and Flip said he likes to go Big when possible.

Foye says he'd prefer to be seen at the PG slot anyway. I see him ultimately as a Gilbert Jr, type. Or a Juan Dixon upgrade, a substitute Gil off the bench to keep the energy high. Back-up to Gil is a need position.

But as for playing next to Gil, Foye actually hit 40% from the three last year (07-08, though in only 40 games) taking 4 per game. He can hit an NBA three on the catch and shoot at a fair rate (like ~37% for his career, pretty close to Gil). I suspect playing next to a rejuvenated Gil (knock wood) or off the bench against opponent 2nd lines he'd hit a better percentage than as the first option attacker.

Rubio right now ain't a great shooter either. He can hit a wide open shot if he aims it, and if you leave him alone, but he needs polish and an off-the dribble move. No doubt he'll develop any skill he needs that can be learned, I love his talent and upside, but as a prospect I was concerned about his durability, and he'll need a mid-range game of any kind to really succeed. If he stays healthy, then by all means he'll be a waaay better player than the aggregate Foye/Miller. But this year, in the short term, he wouldn't have given the same production next to Gil as either or both. Long term, bringing him over from Europe in 2 years gives us a cheap infusion of skill and energy right when a guy like McGee may be fully ready to realize his talent. That would be the kind of 'thinking long-term' that I'd like.

As for right now, Foye at least _says_ he can play behind or next to Gil and is looking forward to trying, he doesn't care as much about stats, he wants to win. He's had to be a top scorer but here he knows his role would be to feed Gil, Caron, Antawn, or hit open shots.

By contrast Rubio, his agent, his father...they all say that he needs the ball and couldn't play next to Gil. Couldn't shine. And the only way he can make up for the cost of his buy-out is if he lands significant endorsement deals. To do that he needs a primary role and/or a big market. Now while Rubio can definitely feed his team, Gil plays best as an attacker with the ball in his grip. I agree with the Ricky camp somewhat, I know for a fact he could play here, but it's not an instant chemistry fit, not his best situation. Personally I'd rather have had Curry + Mike Miller if we could have flipflopped the pick, all else being equal.

I'm done bitching about it. We could have done better for the long term, that's an article of faith for me. I see this as a short term move, with real risk on the back end. But the manifold positive effects of winning (now, ever) can have long term repercussions, unknown effects. Puts cash in pocket to allow bolder moves later, draws free agents to an exciting brand of ball, helps argue towards a re-sign discount, etc. And at least, if we have an efficient scoring exciting team with the ball flying around putting up bold numbers on the score board, well that will be fun to watch in the interim. Maybe the longer-term irons itself out. Maybe there's a plan in place that ain't as easy to see. Hey never know, could be a perfect mesh of all personalities and a sudden prodigious growth by the youngsters and a championship post season. Same way even paranoids have enemies, even teh manic and delusional occasionally stumble into paradise.

[Kanyewest]

For my part I'm all Swine Flu on this one, all over the map.

In the short term I like just fine the acquisition of MiMi and NotRoye. We haven't had a pure shooter at the 2-guard since-- well since Roger Mason on a good night, which means we've never had one next to Gil.

Doc, how do you define pure shooter? Are we talking pure chucker or pure Arvis Hayes? I mean, Foye only shot 40% last year. And he's a midget at the 2. Wow, can't play Rubio and Arenas together, but Foye is ok? $6m a year for re-signing a guy with a PER below 15? Whaaa?

Doc is referring to Mike Miller, who is as pure of a shooter as they come. BTW, Foye shot 40% from 3 from January to March. He came back from a knee injury this season and his play faltered down the stretch because of a hip injury. He still put up impressive numbers at the end of December to the beginning of February, when Al Jefferson went down with an injury. Foye was really in a no-win situation with that roster at that point.

[Chocolate City Jordanaire]

I think I'm gonna be bitching up until summer league.

I'll probably start recanting a whole bunch of the negative things I've said once the stories of Foye's good character comes out.

When Miller has a bounce back season and when Foye does break out under EG like Gil, Caron, and to a lesser extent Dominic has; then I'll do a total 180 on Ernie. I'll say I'm glad he's GM then.

When Flip gets the team to a 1st place this season in the Atlantic, after Orlando figures out Hedo was the reason for the matchup problems they caused, and after Atlanta finds out why Jamal Crawford's never on winning teams, AND after this damned team is the healthiest in the league ...

I'll be happy as hell.

It would be really sweet to have this team exceed expectations, win 52 or so games, have Blatche AND McGee break out, have all you SOBs that are sick of my posts right now come back and say you told me so .... Honestly, that's what I hope. I hope you happy bastards (I say that in love) are right.

But at least until summer league I reserve the right to "talk stink" about Ernie Grunfeld.

[closg00]

Has Foye been medically cleared to return to action? After-all he is coming off of knee and hip problems.

[WizarDynasty]

Nick and Blatche become allstars under Saunders. No way we trade them. I would rather keep foye and miller over Jamison and Butler for sure.

[nate33]

I think I'm gonna be bitching up until summer league.

I'll probably start recanting a whole bunch of the negative things I've said once the stories of Foye's good character comes out.

When Miller has a bounce back season and when Foye does break out under EG like Gil, Caron, and to a lesser extent Dominic has; then I'll do a total 180 on Ernie. I'll say I'm glad he's GM then.

When Flip gets the team to a 1st place this season in the Atlantic, after Orlando figures out Hedo was the reason for the matchup problems they caused, and after Atlanta finds out why Jamal Crawford's never on winning teams, AND after this damned team is the healthiest in the league ...

I'll be happy as hell.

It would be really sweet to have this team exceed expectations, win 52 or so games, have Blatche AND McGee break out, have all you SOBs that are sick of my posts right now come back and say you told me so .... Honestly, that's what I hope. I hope you happy bastards (I say that in love) are right.

But at least until summer league I reserve the right to "talk stink" about Ernie Grunfeld.

Nice post CCJ

[Hoopalotta]

If we start Mike Miller at the two guard, I am wondering how the rotation works exactly on a minute by minute basis.

But it seems to me that one of two things would happen:

A) Mike miller will be jerked in and out of the game in a higgledy-piggeldy fashion and might not get into a flow. 'Four minutes here, five minutes there' and so on

or

B) We have to take Caron out of the game before we take Miller out as we will be subbing in guards (Foye). That seems awkward as I would suspect that Butler would play a fair few more minutes than Miller under most any scenario. I suppose if D-Mac beats out NY or whoever, that would make some sense. Then Miller is a full time 2 though, which seems a bit rickety in some ways.

The other wild card is this business of Caron trying to get down to 210 pounds, which seems a bit stringy for a full time 3.

There is the possibility that I am missing something with the flow chart though.

[miller31time]

LOL.

The father of the Wiz Board (CCJ) has spoken!

But in all seriousness, for as much as we here like to whine and bitch about every little thing, we all really do want nothing but the best for this team. Hypercritical at times? Most definitely, but the best hypercriticality (I know that's not a word) there possibly is.