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"The Eight-Man Rotation Is Coming"

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Re: "The Eight-Man Rotation Is Coming" 

Post#101 » by doclinkin » Sat Aug 15, 2009 4:11 am

Kanyewest wrote:
doclinkin wrote:Flip's offense thrives on dynamic motion, screens away from the ball, back picks to spring players free before the pass, pin screens in the paint to free a perimeter player on a crossing route, etc. No question Blatche needs to learn this stuff to be effective here. But he hasn't seen it yet, hasn't had to put it into practice in game play, hasn't gone over breakdowns on tape, etc.


Blatche must have seen it from Darius Songailia.


Hasn't seen staggered screens off the ball. He's seen the occasional on-ball pick to free the ballhandler.

But sets in Flip's system run thick interference for players who don't yet have the ball, to leave their defender a few paces behind them, trapped in the paint while the guy they're chasing catches an open pass in the free and clear outside the arc. Sets his feet, takes a wide open three.

In some sets you set your guys up to receive the pass, not just to create an open shot for the dribbler. You can sprint quicker without worrying about the ball being stolen, tire out opponents who have to dodge through a gauntlet of forearms, hip checks and subtle elbows. And 'switch'/'trap' rules aren't as commonly drilled for players in the lowpost especially off the ball when the focus is elsewhere. If you're watching the cutter trying to anticipate and block his move to help your pursuit, well you're not watching the action and are vulnerable to attack from the front.

Anyway I'm pretty sure setting solid picks wasn't a focus of coaching emphasis in Eddie's system. Cosntant drill. Haywood would set a solid high screen, and they scripted a few plays to take advantage of Songaila's and Daniels' preference for the pick & release or pick & drive from the top of the key. Or if it was a point of drills, the lessons didn't stick all that well-- Blatche still releases too early and doesn't lean into contact, flinches away from it. But Sammy used picks as well as anybody. I fully expect he'll chew a new orifice in a Big Fella who fails to set a good pick. And Flip will stop to drill and re-drill.

I expect our guys to improve, but it helps to see it done in context. The Argentinian squads will run staggered screens; Manu takes advantage, ditto Walter Hermann, I'm pretty sure Oberto will adjust quickly to Flip's system. If McGee is lagging, he'll sit and watch. I said it before elsewhere, if Dom McGuire shows an aptitude for a clear role as a screening low-post defender (or the defensive zone point-man at the top of the key) he'll earn minutes before more talented pure scorers.

Fact is this roster can show dozens of interesting configurations depending on the playstyle. Flip has a ton of options. I expect us to see many of them early in the season. And what works best, and who stays healthy, will be what sticks and stays on court late game late season and afterwards.
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Re: "The Eight-Man Rotation Is Coming" 

Post#102 » by crackhed » Sat Aug 15, 2009 4:44 am

my take is i think it comes down to the 2 guys themselves... blatche and mcgee. if they are ready to perform and play at a high level, they'll get the minutes. if not, then oberto will get the minutes.
flip has said as much, the players determine their minutes.

blatche and mcgee need to show up and assert themselves aggressively from jump. the wizards need that from them to be successful. time to grow up and act like pros.
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Re: "The Eight-Man Rotation Is Coming" 

Post#103 » by doclinkin » Sat Aug 15, 2009 6:41 am

Training camp battles should be interesting. I wish I had video feed for the whole thing.
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Re: "The Eight-Man Rotation Is Coming" 

Post#104 » by closg00 » Sat Aug 15, 2009 12:08 pm

Choob wrote:
1st: 64-18 (lost to Miami in ECF)
2nd: 54-28 (lost to Cle in ECF)
3rd: 59-23 (lost to Bos in ECF)

Flip's teams are good in the regular season when you dont have to play someone over and over again in a short stretch. In the playoffs however, the other team has enough time to game plan for him and he has no other alternatives or makes no adjustments. Thats why he has good regular season success and bad playoff results. Another mark against Flip is his inability to use his bench effectively. He'd rather run the starters ragged before putting in the bench and thats a big no-no especially when considering older players like the ones we had


Always interesting to hear the perspective of the Piston fans.
viewtopic.php?f=14&t=937551
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Re: "The Eight-Man Rotation Is Coming" 

Post#105 » by nate33 » Sat Aug 15, 2009 12:55 pm

closg00 wrote:
Choob wrote:
1st: 64-18 (lost to Miami in ECF)
2nd: 54-28 (lost to Cle in ECF)
3rd: 59-23 (lost to Bos in ECF)

Flip's teams are good in the regular season when you dont have to play someone over and over again in a short stretch. In the playoffs however, the other team has enough time to game plan for him and he has no other alternatives or makes no adjustments. Thats why he has good regular season success and bad playoff results. Another mark against Flip is his inability to use his bench effectively. He'd rather run the starters ragged before putting in the bench and thats a big no-no especially when considering older players like the ones we had


Always interesting to hear the perspective of the Piston fans.
viewtopic.php?f=14&t=937551

That's one way to look at it. Another way is to say that that Miami team was better than Detroit and should have won the series. In the next two years after that, Ben Wallace had started his decline and that Pistons team simply didn't have the horses to beat Cleveland or Boston.

It's not that Detroit was an elite team that choked in the playoffs. It's that Detroit was a 2nd tier team that managed a 1st tier record in the regular season but couldn't maintain the illusion throughout the playoffs.
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Re: "The Eight-Man Rotation Is Coming" 

Post#106 » by Kanyewest » Sat Aug 15, 2009 5:28 pm

^^^ Ben Wallace left after the 2007 season. You could argue that they could have beaten Miami and found some way to contain Dwayne Wade but I also believe that Miami was the better overall team. IMO Detroit choked in the playoffs against the Cavs, especially since they had a 2-0 series lead against the Cavs.
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Re: "The Eight-Man Rotation Is Coming" 

Post#107 » by Hoopalotta » Sat Aug 15, 2009 9:12 pm

nate33 wrote:
That's one way to look at it. Another way is to say that that Miami team was better than Detroit and should have won the series. In the next two years after that, Ben Wallace had started his decline and that Pistons team simply didn't have the horses to beat Cleveland or Boston.

It's not that Detroit was an elite team that choked in the playoffs. It's that Detroit was a 2nd tier team that managed a 1st tier record in the regular season but couldn't maintain the illusion throughout the playoffs.


That's exactly right: Peoples expectations get out of whack with reality and then, when it comes crashing down, they want someone to blame. So why not just blame the coach who wasn't there for the championship season? He;s the difference, right? Never mind that they lost to teams with transcendent talent, were declining and didn't fit the mold of classic championship teams to begin with.

I see a related dynamic with Randy Foye and Minnesota fans: They needed Foye to be the number two weapon, maybe even a point guard, but he couldn't do it, so Foye's a goat. Never mind that, surrounded with better players, he could be a nice weapon.

This kind of thinking will be afoot till the end of days.
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Re: "The Eight-Man Rotation Is Coming" 

Post#108 » by TheSecretWeapon » Mon Aug 17, 2009 1:57 pm

Yet another way of looking at this Pistons fan's comment is that it's possible he has no idea what he's talking about. To be blunt, the vast, vast, vast majority of fans wouldn't recognize a coaching adjustment if it jumped up and bit 'em on the buttocks.
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Re: "The Eight-Man Rotation Is Coming" 

Post#109 » by montestewart » Mon Aug 17, 2009 4:04 pm

TheSecretWeapon wrote:To be blunt, the vast, vast, vast majority of fans wouldn't recognize a coaching adjustment if it jumped up and bit 'em on the buttocks.


Count me as one that is frequently baffled by the choices or non-choices that coaches make. Years of watching Eddie Jordan maybe exacerbated that, but even with Brown, Jackson, Popovich and other well regarded coaches, I often can't tell whether an out of character substitution is due to player fatigue or some other strategy choice. Likewise, I often have trouble telling whether the in-game alteration of a team's offensive or defensive design is primarily a coaching choice or the players altering the strategy on the floor. At games, my wife sometimes turns to me for answers, and I shrug my shoulders and turn to ask the guy behind me, a former ref with a pretty keen eye for the game.
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Re: "The Eight-Man Rotation Is Coming" 

Post#110 » by TheSecretWeapon » Mon Aug 17, 2009 8:54 pm

Monte: Part of the reason for that is the disgraceful job done by "analysts" and "experts." I'm not the first to note this, but football announcers and commentators have no problem discussing in pretty specific terms what a team is trying to do on certain plays. I've seen Jaworski break down Peyton Manning beating a cover 2. I suspect many casual fans could tell you the broad principles of a Cover 2 defense, for example, and where it's typically vulnerable. I think many fans could give you the basic concept of a West Coast offense.

We look at football as a kind of animated chess match orchestrated by the head coaches. Not so with basketball.

For me, one of the best remedies for this was talking to the people involved -- coaches, players, scouts, execs. That's not an option for most -- I was lucky enough to get press passes for awhile so I had an excuse to talk hoop with folks in the NBA. Many were more than happy to talk details when asked about it. They...umm...really love the game and know a lot about it.

One of the most enjoyable hoop conversations I've ever had was with a Wizards' assistant back when I was doing my defensive tracking project. This particular guy was remarkably receptive to the data I'd collected. He'd acknowledge that what I'd collected was valid and worthwhile, then go through the various things they'd tried to address it. The part that was most fun was probaby an hour into the conversation. When I sorta realized that everyone else had gone home. That it was just the two of us there drawing stuff up on the white board and talking about why the defense was so bad.

Other ways to get edumucated and see more of the game.

1) Read. There are oodles of coaching books that actually delve into the Xs and Os. There's some good stuff on the Internets that at least give the broad brush strokes of offensive systems. Find articles written by top coaches for coaching journals. Study all of it. Learn how the offenses -- even at their most basic -- are supposed to work.

2) Don't watch the ball. Most of the strategic stuff happens away from the ball. Watch where players move. Watch where screens are set and who's coming off them. Eventually, you'll start to see patterns, and then you'll start seeing variations on those patterns. Especially if...

3)...You do some tracking while you're watching. I did detailed tracking of the Wizards' defense for the better part of 3 seasons. Some of the tracking was more detailed than others. When I was tracking the team's defense by an array of factors (including offensive play type -- recording whether the offense attacked with screen/roll vs. pin-downs vs. hand-off vs. post-up, etc., etc.) I learned a HUGE amount. I'd watch an offense come down and score with a particular play. Then I'd see a defensive adjustment. Then the offense would run the same play, but with a variation. And the defense would adjust again. And so on. But here's the thing -- IT WAS EXTRAORDINARILY RARE FOR THE ANNOUNCERS TO MENTION EVEN ONE OF THOSE ADJUSTMENTS.

That tracking might have been part of the reason the conversation I mentioned earlier was so much fun. I'd already picked up all their defensive calls. I could ask why they gave up so many wide-open baseline jumpers when they were in Shark. Why ball handlers got to the hoop so easily when they were in Fish. And so on.

4) Learn about advanced stats and what they tell us about the game. This isn't the same thing as understanding Xs and Os and coaching adjustments, but in the broadest terms, advanced stats help provide a logical way to examine what's going on out there. We know, for example, that the single most important thing for an NBA defense to do is to lower opponent shooting percentages. Based on that one stat, we can then look at a team's performance in that area and examine a coach's defensive strategy. Does what they're doing lower opponent shooting?

Similarly, we can use advanced stats to look at an array of player performance indices to see if they're actually doing a good job at what they're being asked to do. When combined with detailed viewing (scouting, tracking, note-taking), advanced stats can be illuminating.

But, realistically speaking, for most folks, it's not worth the work. I don't think most fans really care all that much about the strategy behind the game (even if understanding it better would make it more fun). They don't care to learn about the stats, the systems, etc. It's a lot easier to use the stuff they learned when they played ball for a couple years in high school than it is to...you know...study the game. Even if stuff that worked in high school is completely wrong for the NBA. Even if that high school stuff is simplistic (of necessity) compared to what they do at the pro level.

Just as a quick example -- pressing, trying to turn the other team over, and trying to steal the ball are often effective at the high school level, but are usually a waste of time in the NBA. That's because NBA teams usually have a minimum of 3-4 competent ball handlers on the floor at the same time. Plus, the other guys are experienced enough to be trusted to run to a spot on the floor and make a simple pass to an open teammate. And, by the time they're in the NBA, these guys have seen every press variation anyway, and already know exactly how to beat it.

The stupid thing about the announcers is this -- basketball is a simpler strategically than football. It's easier to explain. Biggest issue is probably that the game flows in hoops while there are breaks between plays in football. But still.
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Re: "The Eight-Man Rotation Is Coming" 

Post#111 » by montestewart » Mon Aug 17, 2009 9:56 pm

I remember trying to interest my wife in basketball during the Knicks-Rockets finals, acting out and narrating the plays, generally exhausting my limited knowledge, and occasionally having no good answer to some very perceptive questions (she’s a football fan, which as you note may have helped her pattern recognition). Fortunately, despite my shortcomings, she became a fan, but we occasionally talk about the difficulty in discerning whether a particular failure was in the design or in the execution.

Watching of the ball is fun and quite rewarding; some of the other things you see are still a step or two beyond me, but will likely seem worth it once I see them better. Thanks for the primer. I have a file w/saved articles on the game; I think I'll paste this in. It’s things like this that keep me coming to this board.
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Re: "The Eight-Man Rotation Is Coming" 

Post#112 » by TheSecretWeapon » Tue Aug 18, 2009 1:03 pm

One other thought -- watch the defensive center. It's probably the easiest way to get a good sense for a team's defense. The center is usually the "QB" of the defense in the NBA. Biggest talker, he's the one who has to call out screens, call switches, sets, etc. (Everyone has some responsibility, but the center usually has the biggest share.) He's also the last defender at the rim, and has the biggest help responsibilities.
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Re: "The Eight-Man Rotation Is Coming" 

Post#113 » by montestewart » Tue Aug 18, 2009 2:47 pm

Watching Haywood has helped that. So much of his game is knowing/anticipating where he should be. I should learn to do it more. In the 90s, I had an occasional line on some tickets behind the Bullets bench, close enough to clearly hear most of the on court communication at that end. It was revealing listening to Webber, Grant, etc. bark communications.

Thanks for that.
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Re: "The Eight-Man Rotation Is Coming" 

Post#114 » by closg00 » Sun Nov 8, 2009 10:22 pm

TheSecretWeapon wrote:The regular season rotation will almost certainly be a 9-man rotation. Here's how I see the core rotation breaking down:

1. Arenas
2. Jamison
3. Butler
4. Haywood
5. Miller
6. Foye
7. Blatche
8. McGee
9. Young
10. Oberto
11. McGuire
12. Crittenton
13. Stevenson
14. James


Remember this thread? With Miller & Jamison out, you have our rotation as it should be. I am recalling now the Piston boards criticism of Flips 8-man rotation. I am disappointed to see DeShawn and Orberto as part of the tight, 8-man rotation.
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Re: "The Eight-Man Rotation Is Coming" 

Post#115 » by closg00 » Thu Jul 29, 2010 5:48 pm

Continuing the conversation from last year, here is my rotation-prediction from Flip.

PG: John Wall
G: Gilbert Arenas
SF: Al Thornton
PF: Andray Blatche
C: Hilton Armstrong (JaVale will actually tip-off, but Armstrong will enter within minutes)


Flips Bench:
G: Kirk Hinrich
PF/C: Yi Jianlian
C: JaVale McGee

Situational (Less than 10 minutes per night:
F: Josh Howard (returning from injury)
F: Trevor Booker
PF: Kevin Seraphin
G: Nick Young

Reserve:
C: Hamady Ndiaye (NBDL)
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Re: "The Eight-Man Rotation Is Coming" 

Post#116 » by REDardWIZskin » Thu Jul 29, 2010 6:30 pm

^^ i'd have to agree, if bookers Defensive capabilities pan out I'd like to see him get about 15 mins on nights where we are gettin destroyed by granger or joe johnson. During SL I saw him keep a pg in front of him on a defensive switch on a pick and roll. (although he probably should have been hustling back to his man once he stopped initial penetration)
But he did well for the short stint and showed some real defensive determination i havent seen in a Wiz Uni in a while
Sit back and watch WALL WORK!! >:-)

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