Game 4: Wizards @ Cavaliers (11-3-09)

[nate33]

I would have liked to see one of our players get in Shaq's face for the flagrant foul he obviously committed on Stevenson. I think that's where everything came unraveled, because we didn't back each other up. Caron, for example, should have gotten in Shaq's face, he doesn't fear anybody. You know Kobe would've said something.

Meh, I disagree. If any player on the roster other than Haywood got into Shaq's face, it would be a "faux toughness" gesture. Everybody in the building would know that Caron didn't actually want to fight Shaq and that he was secretly hoping that the refs would break it up.

Haywood is really the only guy who could even give the impression that he was willing to stand up to Shaq, and quite frankly, it's not really in his makeup to do so. Haywood is a strong guy and willing to be physical, but he's not nasty.

The thing to do in that situation is get up immediately and walk to the free throw line as if Shaq's foul didn't even hurt. (Did you see how quickly Miller jumped up when he was hammered by Shaq?) After that, you get your big man to deliver a similarly hard foul on one of Cleveland's guards. Unfortunately, our bigs were in too much foul trouble to go give up intentional fouls.

[FreeBalling]

I'm sure this has been talked about.

Is the fix in? WTF was that last night with the refs? All 3 of our big men get in foul trouble in a very short amount of time. When we get the lead up to 18. Thus changing the out come of the game.

On the other side of the ball, the Cavs are whacking away at Haywood or Blatche and no calls? WTF.

Most of the Cavs fouls were not involving shots like hand checking.

Why can't the refs call the same fouls for road team and home teams. Why are there even home town calls? It's sh*t like this that makes me think the league is fixed.

[DallasShalDune]

Haywood is really the only guy who could even give the impression that he was willing to stand up to Shaq, and quite frankly, it's not really in his makeup to do so. Haywood is a strong guy and willing to be physical, but he's not nasty.

.

He did pull out Etan's braid in a practice once. That's epic.

[dobrojim]

from the comments on the last page which is all I've read of this thread
since game time yesterday, let me add my voice to the echo chamber.

I said the game would be about Gil.
Others said watch out for the refs. I was wrong. They were right.

We were thoroughly and consistently hosed for most of the night.

Gil was not great, but he wasn't horrible. The refs were (horrible).

not much more needs to be said

they are NOT a better team than us when it's 5 on 5.

edit to add - we did lose poise as the game went on reverting to
jump shooting when we should have attacked the basket and forced
calls. I think the players knew those calls weren't coming.

[Udilicious42584]

Cavs fan here, just wanted to post some thoughts about the game last night.

I was in attendance at the Q last night. This is actually the 2nd time I've been able to see the Cavs VS Wizards in action this year as I was on hand for the preseason matchup as well.

First of all the atmosphere was amazing. I don't see how our players can dispute the fact that Cleveland and Washington are not in some ways basketball rivals. There was definitely bad blood in the air, and some noticeable tension between the players. The fans are always so much more into the game when the Wizards are around too. Always a good environment at the Q.

I definitely think the Wiz will be a playoff team this year, and I hope our teams will meet up in the postseason. The acquisitions that both teams made over the Summer will renew the battle and make the championship chase more interesting. I admit, the Cavs playing against DET, ATL and ORL last year in the playoffs was fun, but it wasn't nearly as intense and exciting like when we play the Wizards. When we play against you in the playoffs there is always some type of backstory, and it adds extra intensity to every game. I missed that last spring...

Anyhow, about the game, I know it's easy to get frustrated at officials when things go wrong, but I thought the game had it's moments when the officiating went back and fourth. I recall some moments looking up at the scoreboard and seeing the Cavs with 5 team fouls, and the Wiz with 0. I was frustrated with many ticky tack fouls that were called against us, where on the other end of the court, the Cavs couldn't draw fouls... However, it did seem though as if Washington lived at the line in the 1st and 3rd quarters, while the Cavs got the benefit in the 2nd and part of the 4th quarter. The refs probably tried to balance it out, but at the end of the night the Wiz still had a significant free throw advantage.

The first quarter was a quarter of dread for me. I would have thought that the Cavs would come out hungry, wanting the protect homecourt against one of our biggest enemies. Washington definitely came to play though in the first 12:00 and they did everything right. Your team made us shoot ugly jumpers, and you took advantage of our shaky transition defense by getting the ball down the floor quickly for easy buckets. We looked lost in our own building, while you guys cruised to nearly a 20 point lead Caron Butler showed no rust coming back from that knee contusion as he and James would exchange buckets. Caron took charge, and scored 11 points quickly to take it to us...

I'm glad the Cavs were able to show some resolve and figure out ways to slow Caron and Gilbert after a hot start. The Cavs did to Washington what many teams try to do to us. They try to get the ball out of LeBron's hands and make the role players step up. Had Gilbert and Caron continued to shoot through out the game as they did in the first quarter, it would have been a long and ugly night for the Cavaliers. Have to give credit to the Cavs for stepping up and winning the game by getting things squared away on the defensive end, which frustrated Washington and allowed us to build up confidence on the offensive end.

The Wizards actually played the Cavs significantly better in the preseason for the simple fact that they moved the ball around extremely well, and got the new additions involved much more. Even though preseason has scrub lineups and garbage time, the Wiz seemed to be playing the right way. Now last night I was surprised that Mike Miller was hardly used. He was one of the guys I thought would give us the biggest headache after his 3 point storm in the preseason match. Your team's bigs and Arenas need to get that ball moving more, and make sure to swing that ball around the perimeter. Foye and Miller are weapons, and I'm sure your team will figure out how to integrate them more as the season moves along. Arenas is probably excited to be back on the floor, but he does need to forget playing 1 on 1 so much with the fancy dribbling and just get the ball moving to his teammates. He'll get his shots too of course.

Okay, I think that's about it . Looking forward to the next Cavs/Wiz match, and hope Antawn gets back soon enough so we can see how these two teams truly match up against eachother.

[Chocolate City Jordanaire]

Whenever a fan complains about officials the way I did earlier in this thread, most will think the fan is a homer who is just whining.

I said a lot about what I thought: The refs took last night's game from the Wizards in the second.

I just wanted to provide insight to others who think I'm ranting and raving and whining. Even if I was during the game, I can give you reasons why I feel that way. Way back on page 4 or so I said pretty much I expected bad calls.

To me, the calls last night were criminally bad. I'm thinking the refs can't keep making it so obvious.

Hey man, I've gotten on you in the past on this forum. But its mostly cause I only post here out of emotion/venting/etc. and don't really bother to engage with anyone. But I just wanted to say that over the years I've really grown to respect how you carry yourself here. You always take the time to come back and explain yourself, and your words are very clear and well thought out. So basically, just wanted to let you know that despite what I've said/will say, I enjoy reading what you have to say.

Thanks, KZ.

I appreciate your true feelings, regardless. Vent freely with me anytime, KZ. I've gotten a lot of practice at having to explain my emotional venting myself. It's even fun when I'm wrong and gotta admit it.

[dobrojim]

Cavs fan here, just wanted to post some thoughts about the game last night.

[major snippage of non-controversial, even polite conversation]

Anyhow, about the game, I know it's easy to get frustrated at officials when things go wrong, but I thought the game had it's moments when the officiating went back and fourth. [snip]

Of course you did. And to a certain extent, you may actually be right. But I think
you were clearly mistaken in trying to say it was in any way balanced.
Furthermore, this is not the place for you to say it. I have not gone to
your board either to complain or monitor the comments
of Wiz fans whom I can't control anyway.

Now that I've been mostly nice, let me say this - your mother was a
hamster and your father smelled of elderberry. I fart in your general
direction! No go away or I shall taunt you a second time.

[dandridge 10]

Cavs fan here, just wanted to post some thoughts about the game last night.

I was in attendance at the Q last night. This is actually the 2nd time I've been able to see the Cavs VS Wizards in action this year as I was on hand for the preseason matchup as well.

First of all the atmosphere was amazing. I don't see how our players can dispute the fact that Cleveland and Washington are not in some ways basketball rivals. There was definitely bad blood in the air, and some noticeable tension between the players. The fans are always so much more into the game when the Wizards are around too. Always a good environment at the Q.

I definitely think the Wiz will be a playoff team this year, and I hope our teams will meet up in the postseason. The acquisitions that both teams made over the Summer will renew the battle and make the championship chase more interesting. I admit, the Cavs playing against DET, ATL and ORL last year in the playoffs was fun, but it wasn't nearly as intense and exciting like when we play the Wizards. When we play against you in the playoffs there is always some type of backstory, and it adds extra intensity to every game. I missed that last spring...

Anyhow, about the game, I know it's easy to get frustrated at officials when things go wrong, but I thought the game had it's moments when the officiating went back and fourth. I recall some moments looking up at the scoreboard and seeing the Cavs with 5 team fouls, and the Wiz with 0. I was frustrated with many ticky tack fouls that were called against us, where on the other end of the court, the Cavs couldn't draw fouls... However, it did seem though as if Washington lived at the line in the 1st and 3rd quarters, while the Cavs got the benefit in the 2nd and part of the 4th quarter. The refs probably tried to balance it out, but at the end of the night the Wiz still had a significant free throw advantage.

The first quarter was a quarter of dread for me. I would have thought that the Cavs would come out hungry, wanting the protect homecourt against one of our biggest enemies. Washington definitely came to play though in the first 12:00 and they did everything right. Your team made us shoot ugly jumpers, and you took advantage of our shaky transition defense by getting the ball down the floor quickly for easy buckets. We looked lost in our own building, while you guys cruised to nearly a 20 point lead Caron Butler showed no rust coming back from that knee contusion as he and James would exchange buckets. Caron took charge, and scored 11 points quickly to take it to us...

I'm glad the Cavs were able to show some resolve and figure out ways to slow Caron and Gilbert after a hot start. The Cavs did to Washington what many teams try to do to us. They try to get the ball out of LeBron's hands and make the role players step up. Had Gilbert and Caron continued to shoot through out the game as they did in the first quarter, it would have been a long and ugly night for the Cavaliers. Have to give credit to the Cavs for stepping up and winning the game by getting things squared away on the defensive end, which frustrated Washington and allowed us to build up confidence on the offensive end.

The Wizards actually played the Cavs significantly better in the preseason for the simple fact that they moved the ball around extremely well, and got the new additions involved much more. Even though preseason has scrub lineups and garbage time, the Wiz seemed to be playing the right way. Now last night I was surprised that Mike Miller was hardly used. He was one of the guys I thought would give us the biggest headache after his 3 point storm in the preseason match. Your team's bigs and Arenas need to get that ball moving more, and make sure to swing that ball around the perimeter. Foye and Miller are weapons, and I'm sure your team will figure out how to integrate them more as the season moves along. Arenas is probably excited to be back on the floor, but he does need to forget playing 1 on 1 so much with the fancy dribbling and just get the ball moving to his teammates. He'll get his shots too of course.

Okay, I think that's about it . Looking forward to the next Cavs/Wiz match, and hope Antawn gets back soon enough so we can see how these two teams truly match up against eachother.

Can't disagree with much of this post. However, regarding Miller, part of the problem is him...he needs to be more agressive too and not just wait to shoot when he is wide open with no one around. But, other than that, your observations were about the same as mind. Thanks for stopping by.

[ZonkertheBrainless]

Seriously, what's with this "balanced" crap? Did the cavs have all four of their bigs in foul trouble because of imaginary charging calls? I don't think so! How many offensive fouls did Shaq get called for? NONE!!! How many offensive fouls did Blatche/Haywood get called for? FOUR!!! (Don't remember actually, but I think that's right)

Now how is that balanced?!?!?!

[Udilicious42584]

Cavs fan here, just wanted to post some thoughts about the game last night.

[major snippage of non-controversial, even polite conversation]

Anyhow, about the game, I know it's easy to get frustrated at officials when things go wrong, but I thought the game had it's moments when the officiating went back and fourth. [snip]

Of course you did. And to a certain extent, you may actually be right. But I think you were
clearly mistaken in trying to say it was in any way balanced. Furthermore, this is not the place
for you to say it. I have not gone to your board either to complain or monitor the comments
of Wiz fans whom I can't control anyway.

Now that I've been mostly nice, let me say this - your mother was a hamster and your
father smelled of elderberry. I fart in your general direction! No go away or I shall taunt
you a second time.

Judging from my original post you can tell I did not come here to troll, I just want to talk basketball. I just made note that Wizards fans were obviously upset with officiating, but Cavs fans had legitimate concerns about officiating from last night's game as well. That's just the way it is, with any arena, and any team.

I don't feel there is anything wrong coming to another board to make good conversation. I'm not trying to bash anyone. I gave my perspective on a Cavs website, and I'm doing the same on here...

Now with the officiating you can look at it this way. Last night your bigs got in foul trouble and Haywood fouled out. I agree, that's a tough pill to swallow, especially with a big like Shaq stomping around, you have to be physical with him, so some of the cheap fouls called against your guys guarding Shaq should have been overlooked. At the same time though, your guards did not take advantage of our guards when we were in foul trouble. Mo Williams nearly fouled out last night, and West was starting to get agitated with a few things last night and did not play in the 4th quarter. You could tell he was on the verge of losing it with the refs and drawing a technical foul, so Mike Brown pulled him, that's another story though... Anyway, there is no way Gibson, or Williams with 5 fouls can stop Arenas when he is attacking the basket. Williams and Gibson are our weakest guards defensively, but Arenas settled for jumpers when it counted the most.

Some of those things make a difference in the game. As a fan I get agitated when we're in the bonus and LeBron settles for long jumpers when he can easily drive to the basket and try for an and1 opportunity.

[Ruzious]

I would have liked to see one of our players get in Shaq's face for the flagrant foul he obviously committed on Stevenson. I think that's where everything came unraveled, because we didn't back each other up. Caron, for example, should have gotten in Shaq's face, he doesn't fear anybody. You know Kobe would've said something.

Meh, I disagree. If any player on the roster other than Haywood got into Shaq's face, it would be a "faux toughness" gesture. Everybody in the building would know that Caron didn't actually want to fight Shaq and that he was secretly hoping that the refs would break it up.

Haywood is really the only guy who could even give the impression that he was willing to stand up to Shaq, and quite frankly, it's not really in his makeup to do so. Haywood is a strong guy and willing to be physical, but he's not nasty.

The thing to do in that situation is get up immediately and walk to the free throw line as if Shaq's foul didn't even hurt. (Did you see how quickly Miller jumped up when he was hammered by Shaq?) After that, you get your big man to deliver a similarly hard foul on one of Cleveland's guards. Unfortunately, our bigs were in too much foul trouble to go give up intentional fouls.

Haywood actually did get in Najera's face in the Joizy game after Najera gave a hard foul on... guess... okay... it was Arenas.

But yeah, it' was a no-win situation with Shaq. There aren't many people in the world who could get in Shaq's face and not get laughed at by the Cleveland crowd. I'm trying to thing of who could do it effectively... maybe a younger Ben Wallace. Dampier maybe... maybe not.

[ZonkertheBrainless]

You guys are a bunch of cowardly chumps. If Stan Van Gundy can do it, anyone can.

[pancakes3]

the van gundys are made of feistier stuff than most though. especially brenda.

[REDardWIZskin]

I Think this was a game where we shouild have showed our depth a little more, namely McGuire. I think Carrot top would have gotten those cheap baskets on him and the guys seemed a little sluggish and late in the game in their defensive rotations. They also played a little cautious on D because of foul trouble and the cleveland got more agressive in response.