Perfunctory Pistons game thread.

[Munson79rip]

Disagree with those saying to play McGee. There is more to defense than just blocking shots. He picks up a foul on average every 3+ minutes he is in the game. If he can't be more disciplined and be counted on to play more than 12 minutes without picking up 4 to 5 fouls I see no reason to have him in the rotation. He and Boykins I just see as tempo or flow changing guys who Flip should use in specific situations.

[ErikChowbay023]

Bynum and Gordon are ultra quick, and you notice.. we were up 12 , and then Haywood came out of the game for Oberto, and thats when Detroit made there run. Nothing against Oberto, I like what he brings to this team, but, another defensive center is gonna need to be out there with him, because once Haywood came out Bynum and Gordon drove the lane and there was nobody there to contest.

But I also remember, Gordon hit some tough ass shots last night.. Bynum did too.. so sometimes it good D but better O ..

We are a really good defensive team.. We still need to chase people off the three point line, which means quicker rotation. NBA players will shoot and make shots with a hand in there face, you have to make them drive, we are doing that better than ever but it still not good enough, I think it will improve though. We do need to cut the dribble penetration though..

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2JX_izoM ... re=related

[nate33]

Agreed. McGee sucks on defense. Absolutely terrible. McGee can be useful as a change-of-pace guy on offense, even if all he does is tire out the opposing big man. But he is easily our worst defensive big.

I disagree with both Eric and NoD about our defense. We are neither a good defensive team nor a terrible defensive team. We are average. While that's still an improvement over what we used to be, it's not like we can win games on the strength of our D.

[dobrojim]

^ I did watch the game and I got a very different impression. They kept themselves in the game in the first half and owned the 3rd quarter. But they just couldn't sustain the run when Flip had to make substitutions. If Foye or Jamison plays I think they win.

Again, I haven't watched the game yet, but even the Michael Lee's recap of the game in the Insider just screams mentally soft. Both Lee and Flip said the Wizards came out unfocused at the start of the game. This is inexcusable for a 2-6 team desperate for a win on a home court. As Cowology pointed out, the Pistons also had two of their starters out, but they found a way to win and they weren't the team that should have been desperate for a win and weren't playing at home. Moreover, Arenas seems to still be struggling with who he is as a basketball player. I just don't see Arenas ever becoming in the mold of a Wade, LeBron, Kobe, Duncan, or even in the molf of a Billups, because I don't think he has the mental make-up of those players.

In any event, I wasn't just talking about this game. I was really talking about this team for the last 4-5 years. I still think the Wizards have enough talent on the team to turn this thing around a bit and make the playoffs. But, I'm convinced that this team is still nothing more than a 1 and done playoff team, even when completely healthy. This team just doesn't have the mental or physical make-up to be a contender.

mentally and physically soft, hmmm. Hard to argue with that right now.
Is it fixable or permanent? Are all teams when they are losing kinda the same
in this regard?

As much as I have liked 7Day this year, I hold him somewhat accountable
for letting CharlieV go off early and put us in a hole that ultimately was
insurmountable. He's a huge weapon for them. You had to come out intense on D
and not let that happen. He had like 13 in the firstQ. Very frustrating. Don't know
if I can stomach watching it again to see how much Dray was personally responsible.

other comment after looking at the boxscore this morning, Gil had 2 FTs.
Bynum had ~7-8. That can't happen if we're going to be a successful team.

[dobrojim]

Disagree with those saying to play McGee. There is more to defense than just blocking shots. He picks up a foul on average every 3+ minutes he is in the game. If he can't be more disciplined and be counted on to play more than 12 minutes without picking up 4 to 5 fouls I see no reason to have him in the rotation. He and Boykins I just see as tempo or flow changing guys who Flip should use in specific situations.

this is what I was going to say

McGee answered the question last night of why he's not playing
more. 3 fouls in 3 minutes. He's not a rookie anymore. I know
I'm impatient but you can't let that happen to yourself. Focus,
concentration, execution.

[Chocolate City Jordanaire]

Disagree with those saying to play McGee. There is more to defense than just blocking shots. He picks up a foul on average every 3+ minutes he is in the game. If he can't be more disciplined and be counted on to play more than 12 minutes without picking up 4 to 5 fouls I see no reason to have him in the rotation. He and Boykins I just see as tempo or flow changing guys who Flip should use in specific situations.

Please note that Oberto picks up 5.4 fouls per 36 minutes. He grabs only 4.6 rebounds and scores 4.8 points in the same time. Oberto fouls more than he rebounds or scores. (His passing 4.4 assists over the same time is a strength and an asset to the team, however).

http://www.basketball-reference.com/pla ... tfa01.html

McGee's been even more foul prone (8.8) but he's only played 53 minutes through 9 games this season. His foul rate was much lower (4.9) and he scored much better (15.4) last season. I believe McGee needs more playing time because I refuse to believe he regressed at age 21 from what he was at age 20. Flip and his system and his insistence that McGee just be a defensive player are the change.

http://www.basketball-reference.com/pla ... eja01.html

Flip has come in and asked Gilbert and Caron to change their games. Same with McGee. Of the three players, McGee being a very young big has room to improve dramatically.

[Chocolate City Jordanaire]

Disagree with those saying to play McGee. There is more to defense than just blocking shots. He picks up a foul on average every 3+ minutes he is in the game. If he can't be more disciplined and be counted on to play more than 12 minutes without picking up 4 to 5 fouls I see no reason to have him in the rotation. He and Boykins I just see as tempo or flow changing guys who Flip should use in specific situations.

this is what I was going to say

McGee answered the question last night of why he's not playing
more. 3 fouls in 3 minutes. He's not a rookie anymore. I know
I'm impatient but you can't let that happen to yourself. Focus,
concentration, execution.

Andray Blatche is in his fifth NBA season. Being impatient with him, many fans wanted him traded right until this season.

Trying too hard and being impatient over lack of playing time is probably how McGee got those fouls. Not playing three straight games and watching Oberto pick up fouls with impunity while not scoring or rebounding is not a way to treat a player who started his first NBA game the first game last season.

dobrojim and others, McGee looked fine in preseason. That was a month ago. The Wizards IMO are mishandling him very badly. He should be an offensive spark off the bench, and he should be playing as much PF as C, if not more.

[Chocolate City Jordanaire]

Agreed. McGee sucks on defense. Absolutely terrible. McGee can be useful as a change-of-pace guy on offense, even if all he does is tire out the opposing big man. But he is easily our worst defensive big.

I disagree with both Eric and NoD about our defense. We are neither a good defensive team nor a terrible defensive team. We are average. While that's still an improvement over what we used to be, it's not like we can win games on the strength of our D.

I agree 100%, especially with the first paragraph.

[bstein14]

Seems like Butler isn't happy playing second fiddle to Arenas and rightfully so.

Flip always had a good offensive playbook but was never great at managing players... Could spell trouble for the Wiz.

[Munson79rip]

Disagree with those saying to play McGee. There is more to defense than just blocking shots. He picks up a foul on average every 3+ minutes he is in the game. If he can't be more disciplined and be counted on to play more than 12 minutes without picking up 4 to 5 fouls I see no reason to have him in the rotation. He and Boykins I just see as tempo or flow changing guys who Flip should use in specific situations.

Please note that Oberto picks up 5.4 fouls per 36 minutes. He grabs only 4.6 rebounds and scores 4.8 points in the same time. Oberto fouls more than he rebounds or scores. (His passing 4.4 assists over the same time is a strength and an asset to the team, however).

http://www.basketball-reference.com/pla ... tfa01.html

McGee's been even more foul prone (8.8) but he's only played 53 minutes through 9 games this season. His foul rate was much lower (4.9) and he scored much better (15.4) last season. I believe McGee needs more playing time because I refuse to believe he regressed at age 21 from what he was at age 20. Flip and his system and his insistence that McGee just be a defensive player are the change.

http://www.basketball-reference.com/pla ... eja01.html

Flip has come in and asked Gilbert and Caron to change their games. Same with McGee. Of the three players, McGee being a very young big has room to improve dramatically.

That is good point, but nobody here is clamoring or asking that Oberto play anymore than Flip is playing him. There are two schools of thought on playing McGee right now and I disagree with both 1) he would somehow make a big enough difference to turn losses into wins and 2) the season is over so lets play the kids

When Jamison gets back on Wednesday I’d expect almost all the minutes at the 4/5 to go him, Haywood, and Blatche.

The only player I’m clamoring to see on the court more over the remaining 72 games than the past nine is McGuire.

[DaRealHibachi]

Seems like Butler isn't happy playing second fiddle to Arenas and rightfully so.

Flip always had a good offensive playbook but was never great at managing players... Could spell trouble for the Wiz.

Don't think that has anything to do with Flip... Butler knows Arenas is a better player than him and should act accordingly... He was second fiddle last year and he's in the same situation this year...

[long suffrin' boulez fan]

Ernie's got some tough decisions to make at this point. The Wiz are sure showing signs of having gotten old overnight. Butler, especially, doesn't quite have the hop he had. A year ago, this would have been sacrilege, but I'd be up for a lot of trades for him at this time. Miller and Jamison can carry the leadership mantle... and with Boykins, we've got another good leader (in fact, by body language and information given on the court last night, you'd have thought little Earl had been with the team for years).

Even Gil is showing some leadership potential. At this point, there are a lot of guys who can do what Caron does... and he is the one guy with some trade value.

Battier and a big? Rudy and a big?

[dobrojim]

Gil is not the same Gil, at least not in the eyes of the refs.
Appears to me he's going to have to earn it all over again.
Maybe his leg's not right (the calf thing). All I know is we
need him to be the guy he was in games 1 and 3.

We gotta remember that guys like KMart and Amare weren't "really" back until their second seasons back from serious knee injuries. At this point I just want Gil to survive the season and keep showing flashes of the old Hibachi. He'll get better as the year goes on and he'll likely be much more consistent next season.

And we also have to keep in mind that the refs haven't seen this guy play in 2 years. Sure they SHOULD call fouls consistently but we all know that they don't. Once they get familiar with his game again it should get better. And getting a few more wins after Jamison returns won't hurt either.

At this point the only guy I'm giving up on is Butler because his issues are continuing from previous seasons. I'm willing to give everyone else time to correct what's wrong.

good points about Gil.

not sure I'm ready to give up on Caron. He was pretty good for an extended
period. I think he can get back to somewhere close to there again.

[dobrojim]

Disagree with those saying to play McGee. There is more to defense than just blocking shots. He picks up a foul on average every 3+ minutes he is in the game. If he can't be more disciplined and be counted on to play more than 12 minutes without picking up 4 to 5 fouls I see no reason to have him in the rotation. He and Boykins I just see as tempo or flow changing guys who Flip should use in specific situations.

this is what I was going to say

McGee answered the question last night of why he's not playing
more. 3 fouls in 3 minutes. He's not a rookie anymore. I know
I'm impatient but you can't let that happen to yourself. Focus,
concentration, execution.

Andray Blatche is in his fifth NBA season. Being impatient with him, many fans wanted him traded right until this season.

Trying too hard and being impatient over lack of playing time is probably how McGee got those fouls. Not playing three straight games and watching Oberto pick up fouls with impunity while not scoring or rebounding is not a way to treat a player who started his first NBA game the first game last season.

dobrojim and others, McGee looked fine in preseason. That was a month ago. The Wizards IMO are mishandling him very badly. He should be an offensive spark off the bench, and he should be playing as much PF as C, if not more.

please note that I was probably as patient as anyone here re Andray.

I'm def not for trading McGee unless it's a no-brainer. It's just been
frustrating, as I said, having to endure the cheers/taunts of visiting
teams' fans in our house. This has gotta stop. No better time than Wednesday.

Having said all that, I will enjoy the benefits of having a cute big wiz fan daughter
Wed before the game with a free meal at Clydes courtesy of her winning the
Dance Cam on Saturday night. Hard to be upset with that. She's been picked
on numerous times for special treatment, stubhub FanOTG, Seat upgrades etc
and now the dance cam. She's knows which side her bread is buttered on.

[queridiculo]

Took me a while to over this loss. Couldn't bear to even take a peak at this board throughout the weekend.

I liked the spark that Boykins provided, but did he really have to play so many damn minutes in the 4th quarter? Saunders refusal to go back to his starting 5 had a lot to do with why Washington became so ineffective in the half court set.

He basically took the ball out of Arenas hand at a time when we needed somebody that could break down a defender and take the ball to the basket.

There's also a weird dynamic between Arenas and Butler I have noticed. Washington played a set that had Caron set a screen on the top of the key, then shade to the right. Not on one single occasion did Arenas drop the ball to Butler on the wing, the ball always ended up being swung to the left side where there was some off ball action to free the SG.

With all the action on the left side of the court this seemed like the perfect setup to get a two man game going between Butler and Arenas. Why that never happened I have no idea.

[fishercob]

Took me a while to over this loss. Couldn't bear to even take a peak at this board throughout the weekend.

Ditto. I think what hurt so bad was that they played really well for stretches (again) and that Detroit's heroics at the end were just that. Bynum and Gordon made great shots. They were defended properly. It's not a case of EJ's "those guys hit shots tonight" when the shots were wide open 3's. You have to credit Detroit.

I'm still not ready to jump ship. Not 9 games with as many injuries as we've had and with help appearing to be on the way. 3-11 is a possibility, but I still think Flip gets it turned around in a big way before long. There are too many positive signs to ignore, namely the defensive improvement and the depth (when healthy).

[Mel Proctor]

Not sure if this was discussed earlier, but did it seem to anyone else that our guys were scared s-less of shooting the ball down the stretch. Old Gil would've kept on shooting, but for some reason was deferring to Earl the Squirrel.

And not to beat a dead horse, but why oh why does Deshawn have a reputation as a great on-ball defender. DS was inserted for "defensive" purposes down the stretch, and what did he do? Watched helplessly as Gordon made a simple move to his right to free himself for an open J. If Stevenson cannot defend, and cannot score, then why the heck does he even have a jersey, much less the right to be on the court down the stretch?

Is there a worse player getting regular minutes currently in the NBA?

[dobrojim]

DS' foul before the ball was inbounded late in the game was
a critical mistake.

that said, my 12 year was wondering why on our offensive
sequence just before that, down 3, we ended up passing
to Haywood who got fouled and fortunately made both,
but the math seems to point to a 3 point shot as the thing
to do. It was short time left, less than a full shot clock.
Fouling/hoping they'll miss FTs is not so great, esp when
you end up fouling a guy who shoots 85% +

I'm getting over the loss slowly. Also watched a bit of the 1st
Q last night and I may have been a little too harsh on Dray
for letting CV go off.

[dandridge 10]

Took me a while to over this loss. Couldn't bear to even take a peak at this board throughout the weekend.

I liked the spark that Boykins provided, but did he really have to play so many damn minutes in the 4th quarter? Saunders refusal to go back to his starting 5 had a lot to do with why Washington became so ineffective in the half court set.

He basically took the ball out of Arenas hand at a time when we needed somebody that could break down a defender and take the ball to the basket.

There's also a weird dynamic between Arenas and Butler I have noticed. Washington played a set that had Caron set a screen on the top of the key, then shade to the right. Not on one single occasion did Arenas drop the ball to Butler on the wing, the ball always ended up being swung to the left side where there was some off ball action to free the SG.

With all the action on the left side of the court this seemed like the perfect setup to get a two man game going between Butler and Arenas. Why that never happened I have no idea.

I watched the game last night and noticed the same thing regarding Arenas and Butler. Butler was open quite a few times on the wing after the screen and Arenas didn't even look at him. I didn't notice any riff between Arenas and Butler on the court however.

[queridiculo]

DS' foul before the ball was inbounded late in the game was
a critical mistake.

that said, my 12 year was wondering why on our offensive
sequence just before that, down 3, we ended up passing
to Haywood who got fouled and fortunately made both,
but the math seems to point to a 3 point shot as the thing
to do. It was short time left, less than a full shot clock.
Fouling/hoping they'll miss FTs is not so great, esp when
you end up fouling a guy who shoots 85% +

I'm getting over the loss slowly. Also watched a bit of the 1st
Q last night and I may have been a little too harsh on Dray
for letting CV go off.

That foul drove me nuts, what a blatantly stupid move. He was holding the defender why exactly? Did he really think Detroit was going for a low percentage 3 point shot? There was plenty of time for him to recover.

As far the 2 point attempt over the 3, there still was plenty of time left on the clock. If you have a shot at a quick 2 you take it. It gives you a shot at possibly forcing a turn on the inbound. What bothered me more about that attempt was the fact that Haywood couldn't finish the play.