The Predictably Sucky Gilbert Arenas Thread

[mohammed10]

OK - with all of this attention being heaped upon Caron Butler (aka - Tough Juice, now seems to be Fruit Juice or Orange Juice, etc.), I thought I would get to the heart of what is REALLY wrong with this team - Gilbert 'I used to be Agent Zero' Arenas.

I could not find the old Gil Stinks thread on the archive. Thus, I would ask the mods/gods not to lock this thread because I would like to hear (objectively) what the smart folks on this here board think. I really respect the opinions of folks like nate and CCJ, etc.

Gilbert Arenas used to be a tremendous scorer. As a two-guard masquerading as a point guard, he used to have the remarkable ability to get himself open for shots. Before his multiple knee surgeries, Arenas could attack the paint at will with his dribble drive and go around lock-down defenders. Let's face it Wiz fans, Gil's (former) scoring ability makes Arenas a star in our eyes. Now, less than 20 games after essentially a two-year layoff, it is apparent that he is a shell of his former self.

Even before his multiple knee surgeries, Gilbert Arenas couldn't (or wouldn't) play defense. He still allows his man to score repeatedly. Two years ago, Gil's lateral movement and quick feet, which were evident in attacking the paint, were invisible when defending his opponent. It is evident that those three surgeries in 20 months have robbed him of this lateral speed and aggression.

It is obvious that the Wizards's offense has no fluidity through him.Gil looks completely lost out there. As two-guard who is supposed to be a top-flight scorer and a part-time playmaker, Arenas's playmaking ability leaves a lot to be desired. He used to just shoot...and shoot a ton. Even in this post surgery version of Gil, the basketball "disappears" in the offense. Currently, Gil is averaging 6.3 assists/game. He averages close to 17.5 shots a game (pre-knee Gil was shooting closer to 24 shots/game) to get his 20 pts/game. Arenas averages 3.7 rebounds a game. For a guard, that is a average total. But, most of those rebounds come from his errant shots - he's shooting a putrid 39% from the floor.

I don't think that any of this board's brain trust would argue that Arenas is a below-average passer and former above-average scorer off the pass relative to most point guards. That is a bad combination that we are on the hook for $111 million over 6 years.



Gil lovers - flame away

[JWizmentality]

Not mad, just disappointed. It's obvious he's nowhere near the Gilbert of old. He has an excuse. I think everyone has come to accept that.

[mohammed10]

Not mad, just disappointed. It's obvious he's nowhere near the Gilbert of old. He has an excuse. I think everyone has come to accept that.

JWiz - OK, so what do we do with him? Barring a trade to some team who has no idea what they are getting (hello, New Jersey!), it seems like our wagon is hitched to him for at least the next 3+ years, right?

[nate33]

Arenas needs to figure out that there is middle ground between "take on the scoring burden myself" and "set up my teammates".

He doesn't have to mechanically run the offense in order to set up his teammates. If the defense cheats and tries to stop the entry pass, Arenas needs to make them pay by driving the lane. If the defense overplays the high screen and tries to double Arenas, he needs to split the double team, take it to the rack, and either score or dish to a teammate. The point is, there is a way he can use his strength and quickness to help the team without necessarily focusing on looking for his own shot.

Right now, he looks like a careless version of Antonio Daniels. He sticks to the offense and tries to run the safe play to such an extreme that the defense anticipates his every move.

The other thing is that he absolutely cannot, under any circumstances, pass up an open look. I know he wants to swing the ball to get others involved, but he is the best shooter on the team with the possible exception of Miller. Shoot when you're open!

[LyricalRico]

^ All correct points nate. But let me ask you - from what you know about Gil's mentality, do you think he'll get there? I have my doubts. Yes, him getting his explosion and outside touch back to a greater extent over time will help. But I'm not sure he'll ever truly get out of this "in-between" stage.

[closg00]

Perhaps quirky Gilbert will opt-out after next year?

[Wiz99]

I don't think this is a "stage". This is it. This is Gil. Get used to it.

So what do we have? About 2 years ago I came to the opinion that the closest analogues for Gil in NBA history are fellows like Dominique Wilkens and Allen Iverson.

Both were (I guess we are now using past tense with AI) amazingly gifted players. They could carry an entire team through the season and even have fantastic playoff outbursts. Who could forget the game where Larry Bird and Dominique went toe to toe. Nique went 19 for 23. Larry had 20 in the 4th as they traded one shot after another. Check it out here. Just sick! And I expect we all know what AI can do.

But here's the thing: neither won a ring. It took an incredible coach like Larry Brown to get Iverson within striking distance, and it just wasn't enough. Nique never got close (I guess that means Mike Fratello isn't in the same class as Brown).

Simply put: great scorers, missing that one dimension to be great leaders who make their teammates excel. Arenas is that kind of guy too.

[mohammed10]

^ All correct points nate. But let me ask you - from what you know about Gil's mentality, do you think he'll get there? I have my doubts. Yes, him getting his explosion and outside touch back to a greater extent over time will help. But I'm not sure he'll ever truly get out of this "in-between" stage.

Rico, I wonder the same thing, myself (hence the thread topic, I guess).

Still makes way too many TO (cross court passes that leave you scratching your head, etc.). Now is he better than the alternative? I guess only time will tell.

Methinks no.

[mohammed10]

Perhaps quirky Gilbert will opt-out after next year?

...and pass up all that coin? I don't think so.

[closg00]

I don't think this is a "stage". This is it. This is Gil. Get used to it.

So what do we have? About 2 years ago I came to the opinion that the closest analogues for Gil in NBA history are fellows like Dominique Wilkens and Allen Iverson.

Both were (I guess we are now using past tense with AI) amazingly gifted players. They could carry an entire team through the season and even have fantastic playoff outbursts. Who could forget the game where Larry Bird and Dominique went toe to toe. Nique went 19 for 23. Larry had 20 in the 4th as they traded one shot after another. Check it out here. Just sick! And I expect we all know what AI can do.

But here's the thing: neither won a ring. It took an incredible coach like Larry Brown to get Iverson within striking distance, and it just wasn't enough. Nique never got close (I guess that means Mike Fratello isn't in the same class as Brown).

Simply put: great scorers, missing that one dimension to be great leaders who make their teammates excel. Arenas is that kind of guy too.

Excellent points, and to make them is not Gilbert "Hate"

[nate33]

^ All correct points nate. But let me ask you - from what you know about Gil's mentality, do you think he'll get there? I have my doubts. Yes, him getting his explosion and outside touch back to a greater extent over time will help. But I'm not sure he'll ever truly get out of this "in-between" stage.

Up until this year, my answer would have been an unequivocal "yes". Arenas always had that attitude of proving the doubters wrong. If they doubted he could play D and pass the ball, that's exactly what he'd learn to do.

But I'm no longer so confident. I'm really worried about Arenas' psyche this year. All of a sudden, it seems like he no longer enjoys the game of basketball. It's a job now, a job which he isn't doing very well. Worse still, the public seems to have turned on him a bit. He has always had his critics, but there was a heck of a lot of praise and adoration too. Now that the adoration has dissipated, the criticisms seem to hurt him rather than motivate him.

[TheSecretWeapon]

I think Gil is letting too many "voices" into his head. Forget about number targets, and setting teammates up, or carrying the load, or whatever, and just play. Like nate said -- shoot when open, drive when it's there, hit the open man when the opportunity presents itself. But stop predetermining what "mode" he's going to play in and just play ball.

And oh yeah, SHOOT THE 3!!!

I don't know what idiot told him he was shooting too many 3s, but they were wrong. First, because Gil shoots a good percentage from 3. Second, because the threat of him from 3pt land will help open driving lanes for himself. Third, because Gil shooting 3s and attacking the basket (he has done both effectively) creates opportunities for his teammates.

Finally, I actually think Gil is a good passer. But he's not Antonio Daniels or Mark Jackson. Gil's value is as a stone-cold scorer who can also pass the ball when defenses load up on him. But he has to score to make them load up. Right now, he's so passive that defenses don't need to worry about him as much and it's hurting his teammates.

Screw trying to be Billups 2.0. Be Gil.

[Dat2U]

I agree with TSW and frankly this thread is a joke. Did any of you really think Gil could come in after being gone for two years, coming off 3 surgeries and learning to play a different role, that he'd immediately come in and be his old self the first 10-15 games into the season?

For most players coming off of a serious injury to a lower extremity, it can take an entire year before they regain the athleticism & swagger that they once had. At minimum, it would seem likely that Gil would need half the season or so before truly rounding into form.

How about a Sucky Wizfan thread instead? That makes more sense than this garbage.

[Hoopalotta]

Did any of you really think Gil could come in after being gone for two years, coming off 3 surgeries and learning to play a different role, that he'd immediately come in and be his old self the first 10-15 games into the season?

uhhh.....

For most players coming off of a serious injury to a lower extremity, it can take an entire year before they regain the athleticism & swagger that they once had. At minimum, it would seem likely that Gil would need half the season or so before truly rounding into form.

How about a Sucky Wizfan thread instead? That makes more sense than this garbage.

Well, there were some good points made throughout the thread on Gil's psyche and all, but yeah, it would be pretty hard to refute any of this really.

I would have loved to have been paid to write "The Wizards will go as far as Arenas will take them" this summer like all the pundits said, but yeah, they were right. And history gave us no real good reason to think Arenas would be back with any real consistency. A solid preseason and My homer goggles were pretty effective for a while though.

Ya' know I had downloaded that Cleveland preseason game and had forgotten to erase it. So I checked the third quarter 'burst' Gil pulled off and he was way quicker than he is now, so there is plenty of reason to believe that the quickness is not actually 'gone', but merely on hiatus. He was confident early on pure excitement and was much fresher physically. So yeah, he's 'regressed', but I think that's just part of the process. He looks like a stable platform as far as the overall health of his knee, but he took two years off his usual training regime. Rust, soreness, lack of confidence, new role, blah and blah. Throw that thar' kitchen sink in too.

It's just going to take him a while to get his body back to where he can play the day-in/day-out grind of NBA ball. Though reasonable minutes is a good idea, we need to play him as he's not going to get better sitting.

I expect we'll start to see some flashes as the year progresses.

[Silvie Lysandra]

I think Gil is letting too many "voices" into his head. Forget about number targets, and setting teammates up, or carrying the load, or whatever, and just play. Like nate said -- shoot when open, drive when it's there, hit the open man when the opportunity presents itself. But stop predetermining what "mode" he's going to play in and just play ball.
And oh yeah, SHOOT THE 3!!!

I don't know what idiot told him he was shooting too many 3s, but they were wrong. First, because Gil shoots a good percentage from 3. Second, because the threat of him from 3pt land will help open driving lanes for himself. Third, because Gil shooting 3s and attacking the basket (he has done both effectively) creates opportunities for his teammates.

Finally, I actually think Gil is a good passer. But he's not Antonio Daniels or Mark Jackson. Gil's value is as a stone-cold scorer who can also pass the ball when defenses load up on him. But he has to score to make them load up. Right now, he's so passive that defenses don't need to worry about him as much and it's hurting his teammates.

Screw trying to be Billups 2.0. Be Gil.

Let me add this: **** the media. **** ESPN. **** the analysts. **** the bloggers. **** RealGM. They are the idiots who don't know **** about Gilbert Arenas, how he ticks, how he functions, they are the people saying he's not as good as the PG flavor of the month - whether it was Nash, Parker, CP3, because he didn't rack up 10 assists per game. Assists are a horrendously overrated stat anyway, the last 10 APG player to win a title was Magic, and the last one to make the finals was Kidd in a putrid East.

And let me add this too - If Flip doesn't stop trying to mold Gilbert into Billups 2.0, he should be fired. End of story. It is absolutely inexcusable to mold a superstar player into a role he is clearly not comfortable with. (and the tragic thing is that if he fails, as he obviously will, it will be Gil who will be blamed - Flip was just trying to "tame" him).

Seriously, I'd like to see what Flip is doing done to Kobe, Wade, LeBron, Carmelo, Dirk - but of course, to the analysts and mediots, he's not in their class.

But forget what they say - just bring back Hibachi.

[closg00]

I think Gil is letting too many "voices" into his head. Forget about number targets, and setting teammates up, or carrying the load, or whatever, and just play. Like nate said -- shoot when open, drive when it's there, hit the open man when the opportunity presents itself. But stop predetermining what "mode" he's going to play in and just play ball.

And oh yeah, SHOOT THE 3!!!

I don't know what idiot told him he was shooting too many 3s, but they were wrong. First, because Gil shoots a good percentage from 3. Second, because the threat of him from 3pt land will help open driving lanes for himself. Third, because Gil shooting 3s and attacking the basket (he has done both effectively) creates opportunities for his teammates.

Finally, I actually think Gil is a good passer. But he's not Antonio Daniels or Mark Jackson. Gil's value is as a stone-cold scorer who can also pass the ball when defenses load up on him. But he has to score to make them load up. Right now, he's so passive that defenses don't need to worry about him as much and it's hurting his teammates.

What you propose is our only hope for being decent this season.

Screw trying to be Billups 2.0. Be Gil.

[20MexicanosIn1Van]

Let me add this: **** the media. **** ESPN. **** the analysts. **** the bloggers. **** RealGM. They are the idiots who don't know **** about Gilbert Arenas, how he ticks, how he functions, they are the people saying he's not as good as the PG flavor of the month - whether it was Nash, Parker, CP3, because he didn't rack up 10 assists per game. Assists are a horrendously overrated stat anyway, the last 10 APG player to win a title was Magic, and the last one to make the finals was Kidd in a putrid East.

And let me add this too - If Flip doesn't stop trying to mold Gilbert into Billups 2.0, he should be fired. End of story. It is absolutely inexcusable to mold a superstar player into a role he is clearly not comfortable with. (and the tragic thing is that if he fails, as he obviously will, it will be Gil who will be blamed - Flip was just trying to "tame" him).

Seriously, I'd like to see what Flip is doing done to Kobe, Wade, LeBron, Carmelo, Dirk - but of course, to the analysts and mediots, he's not in their class.

But forget what they say - just bring back Hibachi.

Do we know whether it's Flip that's molding Arenas or Arenas who is trying to change? I don't recall Flip ever saying something like this, besides that he'd like to get Arenas to be a leader. In fact, didn't he say that he'd like Gilbert to attack more? However, I do remember Arenas making the asinine comment that he wants to average 20 points and 10 assists so he can be adored like Chris Paul.

[doclinkin]

I think Gil is letting too many "voices" into his head. Forget about number targets, and setting teammates up, or carrying the load, or whatever, and just play. Like nate said -- shoot when open, drive when it's there, hit the open man when the opportunity presents itself. But stop predetermining what "mode" he's going to play in and just play ball.

And oh yeah, SHOOT THE 3!!!

I don't know what idiot told him he was shooting too many 3s, but they were wrong.

That would be tsherkin over on the general board, I'm thinking. Really.

We know Gil (or Poppa Gil) reads RealGM to see what the general public thinks about him, and this ass-clown know-nothing is the prime offender blathering about how Gil takes too many threes, is an inefficient shot-jacker etc, etc. who only needs to take fewer threes to be a decent player. His blarn and bluster is couched in well-punctuated prose and for whatever reason his opinions tend to become the common wisdom over there. But he's a certified dingleberry who stole ever good idea he ever had. He's hated Gil ever Kwame failed to ascend to the glorious heights the tsherk predicted.

Seriously, the quotes Gilbert has made about the knocks he's taken sound like direct quotes from this colostomy bag.

[DCZards]

I don't think this is a "stage". This is it. This is Gil. Get used to it.

So what do we have? About 2 years ago I came to the opinion that the closest analogues for Gil in NBA history are fellows like Dominique Wilkens and Allen Iverson.

Both were (I guess we are now using past tense with AI) amazingly gifted players. They could carry an entire team through the season and even have fantastic playoff outbursts. Who could forget the game where Larry Bird and Dominique went toe to toe. Nique went 19 for 23. Larry had 20 in the 4th as they traded one shot after another. Check it out here. Just sick! And I expect we all know what AI can do.

But here's the thing: neither won a ring. It took an incredible coach like Larry Brown to get Iverson within striking distance, and it just wasn't enough. Nique never got close (I guess that means Mike Fratello isn't in the same class as Brown).

Simply put: great scorers, missing that one dimension to be great leaders who make their teammates excel. Arenas is that kind of guy too.

It's totally wrong to point to AI's and 'Nique's skillset and blame that for them not getting a ring. Let's not forget that no one player is EVER going to win the title alone. 'Nique's Atlanta team lost to Celtic teams with guys named Bird, Parrish and McHale, and AI's Philly team lost in the finals to guys named Shaq and Kobe. Given a better cast of supporting players, I'm sure both AI and 'Nique could have won titles.

As for GA, let's first stop with this nonsense that he has to be a "leader." I knew that was crazy the minute Flip starting talking about it during training camp. I know some on this board think GA needs to be the leader because he's the most talented Wizard. Nonsense! Gil has never been a leader and, imo, has never wanted to be one. Let's stop trying to fit a square peg into and round hole and let "Gil be Gil" with all his quirkiness and immaturity...and scoring ability.

In addition, AJ is more than capable of being the kind of on and off-court leader that the Zards need. Again, "Let Gil be Gil!" Of course, that also means not trying to turn him into a Billups.

[Pradamaster]

Let me add this: **** the media. **** ESPN. **** the analysts. **** the bloggers. **** RealGM. They are the idiots who don't know **** about Gilbert Arenas, how he ticks, how he functions, they are the people saying he's not as good as the PG flavor of the month - whether it was Nash, Parker, CP3, because he didn't rack up 10 assists per game. Assists are a horrendously overrated stat anyway, the last 10 APG player to win a title was Magic, and the last one to make the finals was Kidd in a putrid East.

And let me add this too - If Flip doesn't stop trying to mold Gilbert into Billups 2.0, he should be fired. End of story. It is absolutely inexcusable to mold a superstar player into a role he is clearly not comfortable with. (and the tragic thing is that if he fails, as he obviously will, it will be Gil who will be blamed - Flip was just trying to "tame" him).

Seriously, I'd like to see what Flip is doing done to Kobe, Wade, LeBron, Carmelo, Dirk - but of course, to the analysts and mediots, he's not in their class.

But forget what they say - just bring back Hibachi.

Do we know whether it's Flip that's molding Arenas or Arenas who is trying to change? I don't recall Flip ever saying something like this, besides that he'd like to get Arenas to be a leader. In fact, didn't he say that he'd like Gilbert to attack more? However, I do remember Arenas making the asinine comment that he wants to average 20 points and 10 assists so he can be adored like Chris Paul.

Everything I've heard from the players and coaches indicates this is mostly Arenas' doing. Gilbert's talked about how the coaches want him to attack more, and so has Flip. I know we remember Flip from his time with Chauncey Billups, but let's not forget, he also coached Stephon Marbury, who was more of an attacking off-the-dribble PG in the Gilbert mode, and coached him quite well. Flip is preaching the same stuff with Gilbert as he did with Marbury. Gilbert just hasn't been capable of following Flip's guidance.