OT: Ho'$ and the Rich & Famous

[closg00]

Gilbert from Mike Lee's blog.

"Man, I don't know why everybody's sitting around here like it's something new. Tiger Woods is Tiger Woods! It's not like he looks like Seal

[fishercob]

Gilbert from Mike Lee's blog.

"Man, I don't know why everybody's sitting around here like it's something new. Tiger Woods is Tiger Woods! It's not like he looks like Seal

I think Seal did okay for himself.

[closg00]

Gilbert from Mike Lee's blog.

"Man, I don't know why everybody's sitting around here like it's something new. Tiger Woods is Tiger Woods! It's not like he looks like Seal

I think Seal did okay for himself.

I agree with you Fish, I am actually laughing at the inappropriateness of Gilbert's comment - it was cringe-worthy.

ps I have met Seal and he is one of the nicest guys you'd ever want to meet.

[LyricalRico]

Just fyi, "shaming" people doesn't stop the compulsive behavior. Many sex addicts are deeply ashamed of their behavior. It's one of the difficulties in getting treatment for them.

Agree on this point. I've been watching Sex Rehab with Dr. Drew on MTV for the last few weeks and it's really the first time I've ever heard of sex addiction. Heck, the only reason I watched it in the first place was so that I could laugh at the people on the show. But I quickly saw that this stuff was real and have been following the show ever since.

Look, nothing excuses or justifies behavior that hurts others. But there can't be an effect without a cause. Identifying the reason somebody did something isn't the same as making excuses for their actions. If sex addiction is identified as the cause of Tiger's behavior it can be a first step to knowing what type of help to get and getting it. There's no reason to think he isn't a decent guy at heart who just needs to learn how to make different decisions.

[no D in Hibachi]

I've meet a couple people who have fallen off the deep end and have been involved in crack/cocaine, methamphetamines, as well as being viewers of pornography and they've said that the most challenging thing to overcome was watching pornography. I thought that was really interesting. It's a real addiction, but just not talked about often because 'gettin some' isn't considered an addictions but a pleasure to the natural man.

Maybe the good of the Tiger Woods tragedy is that it makes people more aware to the fact that sexual addictions are incredibly terrible. Perhaps more so than being an alcoholic or addicted to drugs.

[TheSecretWeapon]

Just fyi, "shaming" people doesn't stop the compulsive behavior. Many sex addicts are deeply ashamed of their behavior. It's one of the difficulties in getting treatment for them.

Look, nothing excuses or justifies behavior that hurts others. But there can't be an effect without a cause. Identifying the reason somebody did something isn't the same as making excuses for their actions. If sex addiction is identified as the cause of Tiger's behavior it can be a first step to knowing what type of help to get and getting it. There's no reason to think he isn't a decent guy at heart who just needs to learn how to make different decisions.

I agree with one minor tweak -- sex addiction isn't the cause (if Tiger IS an addict), it's the symptom. The cause is something else. Recovery is about stopping the behavior by addressing the issues that lead to it. Stopping the behavior without addressing those underlying issues is possible, but other negative behaviors almost always creep out. For example, at roughly age 40, my great-grandmother gave my great-grandfather an ultimatum -- either he stopped drinking or she would leave. He stopped drinking cold turkey -- apparently never had a drink in the remaining 50+ years of his life -- but never sought help for the underlying issues. And he was a mean and nasty cuss for all those years. Hence the term "dry drunk."

And your first point here bears repeating -- addict or not, Tiger is responsible and accountable for his actions. And he's responsible for doing better in the future.

[nate33]

Just fyi, "shaming" people doesn't stop the compulsive behavior. Many sex addicts are deeply ashamed of their behavior. It's one of the difficulties in getting treatment for them.

I didn't mean to imply that shame was all that was need to correct someone who has descended that far into a compulsive habit. But I think shame would stop a lot of these kinds of problems before they started. What if, the very first time Tiger cheated on his wife, Tiger's best friends chewed him out and then refused to associate with him for a period of time? What if one of them kicked Tiger's ass instead of condoning it?

Obviously, there's no way to be sure. But I think the moral standards of our society have fallen so far that shame is rarely an impediment to degenerate behavoir.

I wonder what the illegitmacy rate is in Japan.

[fishercob]

I think Seal did okay for himself.

I agree with you Fish, I am actually laughing at the inappropriateness of Gilbert's comment - it was cringe-worthy.

ps I have met Seal and he is one of the nicest guys you'd ever want to meet.

Gotcha. Well we're on the same page a couple of regards then. Gil's comment also strikes me as pretty ridiculous (on a couple of fronts). Also, a friend of mine sat next to Seal on a plane once and said he was the nicest guy she ever met.

[bullitz]

I wonder what the illegitmacy rate is in Japan.

Perhaps it isn't that high, but the suicide rate sure is.

[nate33]

I wonder what the illegitmacy rate is in Japan.

Perhaps it isn't that high, but the suicide rate sure is.

touche

[LyricalRico]

Just fyi, "shaming" people doesn't stop the compulsive behavior. Many sex addicts are deeply ashamed of their behavior. It's one of the difficulties in getting treatment for them.

Look, nothing excuses or justifies behavior that hurts others. But there can't be an effect without a cause. Identifying the reason somebody did something isn't the same as making excuses for their actions. If sex addiction is identified as the cause of Tiger's behavior it can be a first step to knowing what type of help to get and getting it. There's no reason to think he isn't a decent guy at heart who just needs to learn how to make different decisions.

I agree with one minor tweak -- sex addiction isn't the cause (if Tiger IS an addict), it's the symptom. The cause is something else. Recovery is about stopping the behavior by addressing the issues that lead to it. Stopping the behavior without addressing those underlying issues is possible, but other negative behaviors almost always creep out. For example, at roughly age 40, my great-grandmother gave my great-grandfather an ultimatum -- either he stopped drinking or she would leave. He stopped drinking cold turkey -- apparently never had a drink in the remaining 50+ years of his life -- but never sought help for the underlying issues. And he was a mean and nasty cuss for all those years. Hence the term "dry drunk."

And your first point here bears repeating -- addict or not, Tiger is responsible and accountable for his actions. And he's responsible for doing better in the future.

Yes, that's absolutely true. Thanks for adding this.

[keynote]

Just fyi, "shaming" people doesn't stop the compulsive behavior. Many sex addicts are deeply ashamed of their behavior. It's one of the difficulties in getting treatment for them.

I didn't mean to imply that shame was all that was need to correct someone who has descended that far into a compulsive habit. But I think shame would stop a lot of these kinds of problems before they started. What if, the very first time Tiger cheated on his wife, Tiger's best friends chewed him out and then refused to associate with him for a period of time? What if one of them kicked Tiger's ass instead of condoning it?

Obviously, there's no way to be sure. But I think the moral standards of our society have fallen so far that shame is rarely an impediment to degenerate behavoir.

I wonder what the illegitmacy rate is in Japan.

Well, I'm sure Tiger didn't suddenly develop a voracious sexual appetite once he jumped the broom. Our society condones a "sowing of oats" period for singles (well, single men, anyway), only to expect them to completely convert to faithfulness upon getting married. For the average serial monogamist, that might be easy; for superstars like Tiger (who no doubt had his pick of coeds going back at least to Stanford), it's likely a more difficult transition. Obviously, some stars handle this by choosing to delay or refrain from getting married, but I'm guessing that overall, stars would have more success in their relationships if they had been taught/expected to show more restraint earlier on in life.

[TheSecretWeapon]

Just fyi, "shaming" people doesn't stop the compulsive behavior. Many sex addicts are deeply ashamed of their behavior. It's one of the difficulties in getting treatment for them.

I didn't mean to imply that shame was all that was need to correct someone who has descended that far into a compulsive habit. But I think shame would stop a lot of these kinds of problems before they started. What if, the very first time Tiger cheated on his wife, Tiger's best friends chewed him out and then refused to associate with him for a period of time? What if one of them kicked Tiger's ass instead of condoning it?

Obviously, there's no way to be sure. But I think the moral standards of our society have fallen so far that shame is rarely an impediment to degenerate behavoir.

I wonder what the illegitmacy rate is in Japan.

I agree that moral standards in this country are astonishingly low. And maybe a negative reaction from a friend would have helped stem the cheating early. My guess is that by the time Tiger first cheated, he was probably already compulsive in this area. A friend shunning him might have simply led him to do a better job of hiding the behavior. Impossible to know for sure, of course.

[Chocolate City Jordanaire]

A few things noone has mentioned, possibly of relevance are that Earl Woods' second wife is from Thailand. He was a Vietnam era soldier. What did Tiger learn about sex/relationships from either parent?

Some parents, like my dad, who also did tours in Vietnam condoned a "nothing ventured nothing gained" or "he who hesitates is lost" approach to sexual activity. (Such as my dad, a man roughly the same age as Earl Woods). Meanwhile, I'm sure others preached monogamy or abstinence (sp?) or dating and marrying the girl of your dreams and then having sex. Many espouse traditional views, such as sex outside of marriage is fornication. (Mom taking me to church did influence me enough that I stayed a virgin until I was 18). I think the messages you recieve growing up have a lot to do with how you turn out. I also think a good bit of it is genetic.

Tiger strikes me as a guy who was pretty innocent for a long time and then cut loose.

[Chocolate City Jordanaire]

One other observation: What makes Tiger any different from somebody like John F Kennedy, who was hopping fences to cheat as president, or Martin Luther King, who was an ordained minister carrying on an affair?

I think the simple fact is some guys really like to persuade and/or get laid. Some like it more than others. Same guys tend to attract more women. Women seem to like the same guys other women already have or who attract the most women.

Tiger Woods' whole story isn't even that surprising the more I think about it.

[dobrojim]

somewhere earlier in this thread someone mentioned how extremely
talented celebs are often people you probably wouldn't want as friends.

I just want to say that I know at least one definite exception to that 'rule'.

Jerry Douglas, world's preeminent dobro player and a genuinely nice person.

[closg00]

A few things noone has mentioned, possibly of relevance are that Earl Woods' second wife is from Thailand. He was a Vietnam era soldier. What did Tiger learn about sex/relationships from either parent?

Some parents, like my dad, who also did tours in Vietnam condoned a "nothing ventured nothing gained" or "he who hesitates is lost" approach to sexual activity. (Such as my dad, a man roughly the same age as Earl Woods). Meanwhile, I'm sure others preached monogamy or abstinence (sp?) or dating and marrying the girl of your dreams and then having sex. Many espouse traditional views, such as sex outside of marriage is fornication. (Mom taking me to church did influence me enough that I stayed a virgin until I was 18). I think the messages you recieve growing up have a lot to do with how you turn out. I also think a good bit of it is genetic.

Tiger strikes me as a guy who was pretty innocent for a long time and then cut loose.

I was going to make this point also CCJ. Not that its an excuse, but I can imagine Tiger was so tightly controlled by his father for so-long, that perhaps he did go wild later after tasting money and fame. Perhaps he didn't date-much in HS.

[TheSecretWeapon]

John Feinstein mentioned something about this in a radio appearance yesterday. I didn't hear the whole thing, though. I've been meaning to check the audio vault on the 980 website to listen to his comments in full.

[willbcocks]

Just fyi, "shaming" people doesn't stop the compulsive behavior. Many sex addicts are deeply ashamed of their behavior. It's one of the difficulties in getting treatment for them.

I wonder what the illegitmacy rate is in Japan.

You're using Japan as an example of a shaming culture?

The rate of illegitimate children has got to be low here. I can think of a billion reasons why:

-the rate of legitimate children is low
-Nearly impossible to raise children as a single mother because of economic and cultural factors
-No stigma whatsoever regarding abortion
-The incidence of divorce is low, mainly because of different expectations about what marriage is here (men often live away from the house or don't return at night; cheating is condoned in an almost don't ask don't tell kinda way)

-Shame plays a subtle role in all of the above, though it is separate from them.

[dobrojim]

I was really struck by a piece I heard recently on NPR?
which made it sound almost like young japanese men
had to be forced into thinking about sex. I thought
it was astonishing. 20 somethings at a bar and showing
no interest in females, how can it be?