Update - Gil Sentenced - 2yrs Probation - No Jailtime

[dobrojim]

Premeditated
Choice
Suffering
Cruelty

Those are the lines not to cross

I absolutely agree. But those lines have been crossed for decades. Vick is not the god-father of dogfighting and they acted like he was. They wanted him banished from the NFL forever. Just like they wanted Gilbert to be banished from the NBA forever. My point is that once you have paid your debt to society, you have the right to earn a living. When it comes to these rich black athletes, they want to strip that right from them. Which makes me think that it is about the money. Who makes them GOD? They will picket Vick and the NFL but won't do nothing to Joe Blow who works at McDonald's, cause Joe Blow is doing the same thing Vick did. You can work in McDonald's but you can't work in the NFL or NBA?

See these people influence a lot of people and cause uproar. Then when the judge sentences you fairly, it is a slap on the wrist. I said all along, Gil's guns were unloaded. They were being used a joke. But the "World" wanted him to be stoned to death. They didn't want to hear about them being unloaded and used as a joke. So now you got the prosecutor doing a 61 page document outlining a request for 3 months of jail time. Then HE allows it to be leaked to the public to fan more flames of uproar.

It is good that the judge didn't PUNK OUT to all that crap.

while I definitely agree with certain portions of what you're saying, I also
have a problem with parts of it. Can you please identify what person or persons
of any significance (someone that we should give a **** about) you are referring
to when you say 'they'? It would really be helpful in evaluating what you are
trying to argue.

[queridiculo]

I'd much rather people would not mention Arenas and Vick in the same sentence. I don't care what side you're on in the debate about dog fighting, but as far as I'm concerned anybody that could dish out that kind of cruelty and tolerate people he surrounded himself to engage in that kind of behavior is a straight up scumbag.

[queridiculo]

I absolutely agree. But those lines have been crossed for decades. Vick is not the god-father of dogfighting and they acted like he was. They wanted him banished from the NFL forever. Just like they wanted Gilbert to be banished from the NBA forever. My point is that once you have paid your debt to society, you have the right to earn a living. When it comes to these rich black athletes, they want to strip that right from them. Which makes me think that it is about the money. Who makes them GOD? They will picket Vick and the NFL but won't do nothing to Joe Blow who works at McDonald's, cause Joe Blow is doing the same thing Vick did. You can work in McDonald's but you can't work in the NFL or NBA?

I don't know who these people are that you're referring to, but in my line of business, and any other profession, people typically find it hard to gain employment if they're convicted felons.

While I don't necessarily agree with it, nobody can blame the NBA, the NFL or any other professional sports league if they opt to take a similar approach.

Sports leagues sell a product, and just like any business, companies tend to want to control the message that they're sending about who they are, what they do and what they represent.

The notion that 'they' are out to get black, high profile black athletes is absurd. If Nike's CEO was exposed as being involved in a dog fighting ring, do you honestly think that he wouldn't have faced a similar, if not greater backlash?

[Brenice]

while I definitely agree with certain portions of what you're saying, I also
have a problem with parts of it. Can you please identify what person or persons
of any significance (someone that we should give a **** about) you are referring
to when you say 'they'? It would really be helpful in evaluating what you are
trying to argue.

"The World". I have learned that when your opinion align with "The World's" opinion, you'd better be careful.

They judge a person based on his mistakes only. Gilbert has done a ton of positive things in the community. But "The World" only saw guns in the lockerroom. Not unloaded guns used as a prank. All they wanted to say was he is a thug.

They represent weakness, not strength. The vast majority of people wanted Gil stoned vs the few who stood behind Gil. Yes he made mistakes but, you know in my community it is sick. It is a community where if you step on my shoe, you deserve death. That is the same thing "The World" wanted for Gil's career death for stepping on a shoe. That is weakness, not strength.

The self righteous people who think "My mistake is not as bad as your mistake. Matter of fact, I only want to focus on you, not myself". "

"The World".

Where do you stand?

[Brenice]

I don't know who these people are that you're referring to, but in my line of business, and any other profession, people typically find it hard to gain employment if they're convicted felons.

While I don't necessarily agree with it, nobody can blame the NBA, the NFL or any other professional sports league if they opt to take a similar approach.

Sports leagues sell a product, and just like any business, companies tend to want to control the message that they're sending about who they are, what they do and what they represent.

The notion that 'they' are out to get black, high profile black athletes is absurd. If Nike's CEO was exposed as being involved in a dog fighting ring, do you honestly think that he wouldn't have faced a similar, if not greater backlash?

First of all, I never said the NBA, NFL, etc didn't have to right to banish players. It is wrong for people outside of the ownership that try to influence the NBA, or NFL. I understand a person can be a convicted felon and have obstacles in gaining employment. But everybody wanted to focus on OJ, the black man, getting off but nobody said squat about all those white people getting off over the years. And lil black John will get arrested for some minor felony while white Jimmy will not get arrested for the same thing lil black John did. So now lil black John is a felon but white Jimmy isn't? Bullshi!!! And y'all will sit there and act like nothing wrong.

And I am still waiting for them to picket police stations who condone police brutality. I am waiting to see extreme police brutality directed to a non-black or non-hispanic. I guess that is not a problem. Dogfighting is a bigger problem.

And it aint got nothing to do with if Nike's CEO, it has everything to do with letting some people get away with one thing but others, the public turns a blind eye.

Yes there is a drug problem in the black community and a high murder rate. But the media makes it seem like the main drug abusers are black. Not! It is the "do as I say, not as I do rule".

Supreme Court Justice Thurgood Marshall said it best "they think we just sensitive." He was saying that white people think that black people are sensitive about racism from the past, as if it doesn't happen now. It does happen now. Or haven't you not notice that President Obama is being held to a higher level of scrutiny than the previous President, Bush, who totally screwed up?

[dobrojim]

If you read back, I have consistently said I was pleased with how Gilbert's
case was adjudicated. Furthermore, I was even interviewed on NBC4 in
the immediate aftermath of Gil's suspension because I was wearing a Gil
jersey at a Wizards game (vs ORL iirc). They edited about 45-60 seconds
of my comments down to perhaps 10 seconds. Bottom line was I was NOT
in support of how the team, the NBA and the media, generally speaking, reacted
to Gil's stupid mistake. I believe Gil is at heart a good person and had no
malicious intent. But I gotta agree with Hermitkid in objecting to you or
anyone else comparing Vick to Gil simply because they are both high profile
rich black athletes. Night and day. Feel free to call me judgemental on that
one. Guilty as charged. I can't say that I have followed the Vick situation
as closely. Perhaps you can describe for me how Vick has shown remorse
for what he did and has acted in a way that would encourage the
humane towards animal fans at large to want to forgive him.

Further still, was watching (insomia) WashPost Sports online with Ivan
on CSN late last night and wanted to throw my shoe at the commentators,
particularly John F (who I generally tolerate) and a woman who's name
escapes me. The woman talked about not wanting to bring her kids to
a Wizards game because of Gil. She seriously can't see the whole picture
here. Gil could be a great object lesson for many of us. He's not perfect
either as a player or a person. But he's also far from the generally negative
caricature that seems prevalent in most media coverage of him almost from
the time he signed his 111 deal.

[Brenice]

dobrojim

I respect your strength!

[Brenice]

Again, I don't condone what Vick was accused and convicted. That was not the point. But before both Vick and Gil were convicted, they were both treated like they were the worst criminals in American history. That is my point. A lot of people have done worse, and have gotten away with it. But let a brotha step out of line...the shi! hits the fire.

[dobrojim]

First of all, I never said the NBA, NFL, etc didn't have to right to banish players. It is wrong for people outside of the ownership that try to influence the NBA, or NFL. I understand a person can be a convicted felon and have obstacles in gaining employment. But everybody wanted to focus on OJ, the black man, getting off but nobody said squat about all those white people getting off over the years. And lil black John will get arrested for some minor felony while white Jimmy will not get arrested for the same thing lil black John did. So now lil black John is a felon but white Jimmy isn't? Bullshi!!! And y'all will sit there and act like nothing wrong.

And I am still waiting for them to picket police stations who condone police brutality. I am waiting to see extreme police brutality directed to a non-black or non-hispanic. I guess that is not a problem. Dogfighting is a bigger problem.

And it aint got nothing to do with if Nike's CEO, it has everything to do with letting some people get away with one thing but others, the public turns a blind eye.

Yes there is a drug problem in the black community and a high murder rate. But the media makes it seem like the main drug abusers are black. Not! It is the "do as I say, not as I do rule".

Supreme Court Justice Thurgood Marshall said it best "they think we just sensitive." He was saying that white people think that black people are sensitive about racism from the past, as if it doesn't happen now. It does happen now. Or haven't you not notice that President Obama is being held to a higher level of scrutiny than the previous President, Bush, who totally screwed up?

why is it wrong for a fan to try to influence some organization/league towards
a set of beliefs or values that they ascribe to?

I am sympathetic to what you are arguing for in much of the middle of your post.
A great many people are unduly, unfairly biased in their judgements of others.
I would say that I think things have gotten better in this regard certainly over
the 50+ years of my lifetime not that we don't still have work to do.

Re Prez O, I think the people who never supported him in the first
place are more accurately described by your closing sentence, them and
certain sectors of the media (Faux 'News'). Why should we be surprised by this?
As someone who loathed almost everything the Bushies did, the other side
can easily say I'm unfair (I think they're wrong, but I'm not surprised they
would say that).

But I'm still waiting for you to specifically identify who 'they' are.
When we know the answer to that, it becomes a whole lot easier
to view 'their' entire body of work and make a more reasoned judgement
on how fair or unfair 'they' are in their criticisms.

[Brenice]

why is it wrong for a fan to try to influence some organization/league towards
a set of beliefs or values that they ascribe to?

But I'm still waiting for you to specifically identify who 'they' are.
When we know the answer to that, it becomes a whole lot easier
to view 'their' entire body of work and make a more reasoned judgement
on how fair or unfair 'they' are in their criticisms.

They tried to influence from the start. What happened to innocent until proven guilty? And why does a fan of a sport care as long as the convicted pays his debt? Again, it is "stone Gil" or "stone Vick". But others have done worse. And we don't know the mistakes of those "self-righteous" or "holier than thou ones", but I do know they have not led a perfect life.

And the "they" that I already stated were people of "The World", are not broken down by race, but by the following, you are either of "God" or of "The World". I originally stated that when your opinion aligns with "The World", you'd better be careful. It was not directed towards you. Like I said, I respect your strength.

[dobrojim]

you didn't ask for my advice so I know you'll do with
this as you see fit, same as if you had asked I suppose.

When one makes accusations against unspecified
persons or things, they are much more easily dismissed
by those who are actually the ones that person is
really trying to reach than they otherwise would
be if they called out whoever or whatever it was
quite plainly and specifically.

Tell us exactly who you mean! Saying "the world"
is doing this or that isn't particularly useful.

[hands11]

Premeditated
Choice
Suffering
Cruelty

Those are the lines not to cross

I absolutely agree. But those lines have been crossed for decades. Vick is not the god-father of dogfighting and they acted like he was. They wanted him banished from the NFL forever. Just like they wanted Gilbert to be banished from the NBA forever. My point is that once you have paid your debt to society, you have the right to earn a living. When it comes to these rich black athletes, they want to strip that right from them. Which makes me think that it is about the money. Who makes them GOD? They will picket Vick and the NFL but won't do nothing to Joe Blow who works at McDonald's, cause Joe Blow is doing the same thing Vick did. You can work in McDonald's but you can't work in the NFL or NBA?

See these people influence a lot of people and cause uproar. Then when the judge sentences you fairly, it is a slap on the wrist. I said all along, Gil's guns were unloaded. They were being used a joke. But the "World" wanted him to be stoned to death. They didn't want to hear about them being unloaded and used as a joke. So now you got the prosecutor doing a 61 page document outlining a request for 3 months of jail time. Then HE allows it to be leaked to the public to fan more flames of uproar.

It is good that the judge didn't PUNK OUT to all that crap.

I'm going to assume you're just upset and wanting to vent so you're not thinking straight. Working at Micky Ds is way different then being a star player in the NBA or NFL. No one is paying you to market/sell your likeness when you work at Micky Ds. They are paying you min wage to ask if you would like fries with that.

Yes, it is about the money and it's about PR and Marketing. The NFL is a business that sell it's product ( teams/players) not only based on performance. They can ban whoever they would like as long as they have public support ( dont lose sales ) and as long as it doesn't cause a union problem. It's business. No one is stopping Vick from making a living. He can get a job a Micky Ds if he wants. If they will have him. Hey, if I did what Gil or Vick did, my company wouldn't still have me. Probably even less likely if I did jail time. Lots of companies don't hire if you have a criminal record. They have the choice in the state of Maryland. It is an at will employment state. They can fire me whenever they please for no reason except discrimination if that can be proved.

As for Gil bringing guns as a pure joke, that is not entirely true. Gil was in a arguement/fight with someone. He used the guns as an extension of that threat. Now I know Gil wasn't going to actually shoot him but he did bring a gun to back up his situation and witnesses did say it was getting out of hand and he was stupid enough to do it in the workplace in the district where be broke the gun law. You are not allow to threaten someone to do them harm and then involve a lethal weapon in the threat anywhere that I'm aware of. Sure this happens everyday in this country. Sometimes without witnesses. Sometimes with but with no one willing to help the courts prove their case. But Gil did this at work with witnesses. A joke would have been four squirt guns. Now that would have actually been funny and may have diffused the situation. His best move would have been to just pay what he owed and let it go.

What he did was beyond stupid. The NBA doesn't owe him anything. You have no right to work for the NBA to make millions as your living. Gil was an idiot to risk that and he lost millions for being so stupid. Tough lesson. Ouch. But way stupid mistake. Then to be even stupider he does that gun thing during warm ups. That is when Stern had enough. TOTALLY CLUELESS AND OUT OF TOUCH WITH REALITY.

[hands11]

Again, I don't condone what Vick was accused and convicted. That was not the point. But before both Vick and Gil were convicted, they were both treated like they were the worst criminals in American history. That is my point. A lot of people have done worse, and have gotten away with it. But let a brotha step out of line...the shi! hits the fire.

Ahhh, ok.. I'm getting a feel for your venting now.

While you can type what you please on this forum, so can others.

Can we get off the Whitie thing. Because without coming right out and saying it, that is what you are saying.

Discrimination and equal right have been a part of human history forever. The Italians, The Irish, etc. It happens over religions. It's not just blacks who have been treated that way. When blacks were given rights, women still didn't have them. They couldn't vote or own land. And even though things have gotten better for women, you still have discrimination but a lot has changed in the last 20 years. What about the gays and "don't ask don't tell" in the military.

This country ( mostly from white people voting ) elected a half black half white man as the president. We still haven't elected a women president or a known gay person president . And we haven't elected an Italian decent American as president.

http://www.i-italy.us/profiles/blogs/91 ... Post:23115

So my advice...open your eyes and except the progress and stop complaining about things that are explainable for other reasons and calling them things that Whitie is doing to keep the Black man down. Believe or not, there are people who are discriminated against worst then black people both in the US and around the world. Hell, at least for sure in this country, I would say the most discriminated people day to day are no doubt the unattractive. Attractive people of all races get far better treatment in almost every aspect of life. Sorry, but if Obama wasn't as handsome as he is, he wouldn't have been elected.

Hell, many people see to many White guys on a team and people make comments about how can that happens but an all Black team.. that's no problem. It's like Black people are the only ones who can play basketball or something.

[Brenice]

Discrimination and equal right have been a part of human history forever. The Italians, The Irish, etc. It happens over religions. It's not just blacks who have been treated that way. When blacks were given rights, women still didn't have them. They couldn't vote or own land. And even though things have gotten better for women, you still have discrimination but a lot has changed in the last 20 years. What about the gays and "don't ask don't tell" in the military.

So my advice...open your eyes and except the progress and stop complaining about things that are explainable for other reasons and calling them things that Whitie is doing to keep the Black man down. Believe or not, there are people who are discriminated against worst then black people both in the US and around the world. Hell, at least for sure in this country, I would say the most discriminated people day to day are no doubt the unattractive. Attractive people of all races get far better treatment in almost every aspect of life. Sorry, but if Obama wasn't as handsome as he is, he wouldn't have been elected.

Hell, many people see to many White guys on a team and people make comments about how can that happens but an all Black team.. that's no problem. It's like Black people are the only ones who can play basketball or something.

When the Pledge of Allegiance says "One nation, under God" and this country since the beginning was said to be built on biblical principles, but...people like you are satisfied with progress only, cause the fact is, this nation did NOT elect its first black president, what it did is elect the first not 100% white president. In my opinion, Obama is neither black nor white. He is simply, Barack Obama. It ain't about keeping somebody down. It's about equality and fairness. Again, "One nation", not "Us and Them". What is a melting pot?

But I guess you are ok with doubles-standards. See that is the problem with the U.S. double-standards.

And my advice to you is to stop enabling.

[cwb3]

"They" = anyone who disagree's with me on a particular subject.
"They" = an ever-changing group, depending on topic.
But what "They" ALL have in common is: "They" are wrong !

"There are two kinds of people I can't stand. Those who are intolerant of other cultures, and the Dutch!"

[Brenice]

"They" = anyone who disagree's with me on a particular subject.
"They" = an ever-changing group, depending on topic.
But what "They" ALL have in common is: "They" are wrong !
"There are two kinds of people I can't stand. Those who are intolerant of other cultures, and the Dutch!"

You certainly aren't serious, because you do not know my race, creed, color, sex, age, anything, so don't even try to label me. I will tell you this, I am neither black, white, asian, hispanic, indian. I am however, a combination of 3 of them. Does it matter which 3?

Here is something for you to ponder. "If you throw a rock in a pig pen, the pig that squels is the one that got hit."

So, before you say anything else.................

talk to the hand!

[CaPtaiN eYeSaNo]

When the Pledge of Allegiance says "One nation, under God" and this country since the beginning was said to be built on biblical principles, but...people like you are satisfied with progress only, cause the fact is, this nation did NOT elect its first black president, what it did is elect the first not 100% white president. In my opinion, Obama is neither black nor white. He is simply, Barack Obama. It ain't about keeping somebody down. It's about equality and fairness. Again, "One nation", not "Us and Them". What is a melting pot?

But I guess you are ok with doubles-standards. See that is the problem with the U.S. double-standards.

And my advice to you is to stop enabling.

I have a problem with that particular statement for multiple reasons. Only in cases of individual success (i.e., Obama, Woods) do people tend to get into the percentage of African heritage in an American. I have never heard anyone make such a statement in regards to a janitor or incarcerated criminal.

It is a known fact that there are very few %100 black African Americans who have slave ancestors. There were lots of rapes by white slave owners which led to pregnancy. There was also frequent mixing with Native Americans.

Nothing personal, just a pet peeve of mine.

[Zonkerbl]

Huh. Interesting discussion. I'm not ready yet to say that African Americans or whatever have made enough progress that we can declare "mission accomplished" and stop worrying about it. I find it comforting that only 40 years after MLK Jr was assassinated we were able to progress far enough to elect Barack Obama. That's a good sign of progress. But that's all it is. We have a long way to go to make sure that the future course of your life at birth is determined solely by the merit of your diligence and your character and not the color of your skin. Or where you were born, or what god you worship, and etc. etc. etc.

I think Mike Vick and Gilbert did get a bad rap because of the color of their skin. You don't see people calling white athletes thugs. Ever.

[hands11]

Discrimination and equal right have been a part of human history forever. The Italians, The Irish, etc. It happens over religions. It's not just blacks who have been treated that way. When blacks were given rights, women still didn't have them. They couldn't vote or own land. And even though things have gotten better for women, you still have discrimination but a lot has changed in the last 20 years. What about the gays and "don't ask don't tell" in the military.

So my advice...open your eyes and except the progress and stop complaining about things that are explainable for other reasons and calling them things that Whitie is doing to keep the Black man down. Believe or not, there are people who are discriminated against worst then black people both in the US and around the world. Hell, at least for sure in this country, I would say the most discriminated people day to day are no doubt the unattractive. Attractive people of all races get far better treatment in almost every aspect of life. Sorry, but if Obama wasn't as handsome as he is, he wouldn't have been elected.

Hell, many people see to many White guys on a team and people make comments about how can that happens but an all Black team.. that's no problem. It's like Black people are the only ones who can play basketball or something.

When the Pledge of Allegiance says "One nation, under God" and this country since the beginning was said to be built on biblical principles, but...people like you are satisfied with progress only, cause the fact is, this nation did NOT elect its first black president, what it did is elect the first not 100% white president. In my opinion, Obama is neither black nor white. He is simply, Barack Obama. It ain't about keeping somebody down. It's about equality and fairness. Again, "One nation", not "Us and Them". What is a melting pot?

But I guess you are ok with doubles-standards. See that is the problem with the U.S. double-standards.

And my advice to you is to stop enabling.

Look, if you not even going to read and comment accurately on what I wrote then forget it. I stated clearly that he is 1/2 and 1/2 at a min. and progress is all there will ever be, so yes, I am happy with progress. There will never be perfection. It doesn't exist.

And the fact his name is Barack makes the progress this country has made even bigger. Are we done, no. Are there still some twisted people out there. Yes.. But they aren't just white rednecks. They are black people also.

I have meet very prestigious people who are black and white and other things. People are prestigious about all kinds of things.

People like me ? You have no idea who you are talking to. But trust me..People like me are not your target. First off, I'm Italian. Neither white enough to be White nor Black enough to be Black but I have been best friends with both. I have been excepted and not excepted by both. My ancestors were recriminated against plenty and so have I personally. Called WOP. Ginny, etc. in a crowd were I was the minority. I also learned along the way not to laugh with them about it and made sure no one got away with saying that to me... well.. when I was young enough that it matter to me.

Again, show me the Italian president. Show me the women president. Or the Asian one. Some things just take time. I'm not to worried about it. It will happen.

Secondly, the Pledge was changed.. It didn't originally say "Under God" That was added. You want to know when... Google it. Not even sure why that was brought up.

There will never be complete equality or fairness. It will always be something. People will always form groups and separate be it race, intelligence, music, region, whatever. People are different and a lot of people like being around people that are the same as them.. whatever that sameness is.

You want to see a group who is disadvantaged, look at ugly people. Pretty people get way better treatment. A hot black dude or women has it way better then an ugly white dude or women. And regardless if I like that truth or not, I have received the benefit and been on the short stick of it also. And I have dished it out and over looked it at times. Not something I'm proud of, but it is the truth. They don't put ugly women on the cover of sport illustrated. Tall people also get advantages. Short dudes have it way worst with women that tall dudes. It's always going to be something. Things will never be totally equal.

I didn't take a shoot at you as in calling you - people like you - but what I said was, get off the Whitie thing. There is no place for that in this forum and it doesn't serve you well.

People like Jessie Jackson and other black leaders of more modern times have even started to say it... Get out of your own mental jail. Stop living in the past. Stop being a victim. It has never looked so good for people of black heritage. They are passing on that message because it is true. Self jailing and holding onto excuses holds more black people back then anyone can do to them.

That is what they are saying. For all the pushing and complaining some people can do, there is one thing you can't change.. Some things just take time. The old die off and the young emerge. Things change.

It was because of how I was raised and many like me in the 70s that leads to a Barack getting elected. It just takes time sometimes. Generally speaking. It takes 40 years. Two generations for a major change to happen.

[Donkey McDonkerton]

This has turned out to be a pretty awful thread....