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Josh Childress caphold if he signs overseas

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Post#1 Josh Childress caphold if he signs overseas
Mon Jul 21, 2008 1:32 pm by killbuckner

So there is a rumor going around that Josh Childress may end up signing overseas. I know that his RFA status doesn't change as long as the Hawks continue to extend the QO. But does his caphold still apply every offseason as well? His caphold is around 11 million dollars so this is a significant issue. I know this has come up in the past when talking about first round picks that play overseas, I just wanted to get some clarification to make sure on this issue.
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Post#2 Re: Josh Childress caphold if he signs overse
Mon Jul 21, 2008 3:37 pm by FGump

Each season he has a contract in place overseas, there is no cap hold because obviously he can't be added to the Hawks' roster during that season.
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Post#3 Re: Josh Childress caphold if he signs overse
Mon Jul 21, 2008 4:46 pm by Dunkenstein

killbuckner wrote:So there is a rumor going around that Josh Childress may end up signing overseas. I know that his RFA status doesn't change as long as the Hawks continue to extend the QO. But does his caphold still apply every offseason as well?

While I agree that if Childress were to sign with a European team, his caphold would not count against Atlanta's team salary for Luxury Tax purposes. However, killbuckner asks whether his caphold would still apply every offseason as well. And I believe the answer is yes. All free agents who last played in the NBA for a team remain on that team's team salary for purposes of determining cap space unless they officially retire or are renounced by the team. That's why, for example, Golden State had to renounce players like Calbert Cheaney and Tim Young in order to get the cap room to sign Corey Maggette and Ronny Turiaf.

If the Hawks were to find themselves under the cap in an upcoming offseason and wanted to sign a free agent using cap room (not an exception), they would have to renounce former restricted and unrestricted free agents still on their team salary. And that would include Childress if he was under contract overseas.
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Post#4 Re: Josh Childress caphold if he signs overse
Mon Jul 21, 2008 6:31 pm by FGump

Dunk, in reading Art VII Sec 4 your view looks accurate.

I don't get it. If he has a contract for the upcoming season and perhaps beyond, the Hawks can't sign him, therefore it makes no sense to me for cap space to be set aside for the eventuality. And the GS example you gave, I'd figure Golden State had to renounce players like Calbert Cheaney and Tim Young only because they didn't have a contract elsewhere - that is accurate isn't it?

But it's not up to me. And I see no provision to remove a cap hold for a player who signs a contract to play in another league.

So let's consider the ramifications.

I think we've covered this before but I forgot the answer. If you renounce a player's Bird rights (which is what would happen here), can you still keep restricted rights? And if you renounce a player, as long as he doesn't sign an NBA contract, you get those Bird rights back the next summer, don't you?

So if that all works out like it seems, maybe all the Hawks have to do is go through the technicality of renouncing his Bird rights each summer, unless they plan to buy him out and bring him back of course. Would that work? Could they still retain restricted rights and then renew Bird rights annually?
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Post#5 Re: Josh Childress caphold if he signs overse
Mon Jul 21, 2008 7:42 pm by Dunkenstein

Art VII, Sect 4 (d) states that "until a Team’s Veteran Free Agent re-signs with his Team, signs with another NBA Team, or is renounced, he will be included in his Prior Team’s Team Salary". It says nothing about being removed from a team's team salary if he is under contract to a non-NBA team.

That's why Navarro is still on Memphis's team salary; Andriuskevicius is still on Chicago's team salary; Tsakalidis is still on Houston's team salary; as so forth. Get ahold of a league team salary report and you'll see those names there.

I agree that it seems logical that a player with a contract to play overseas should be removed from a team's team salary. But it's not the case in real life. Because the way the league treats the matter, once a player is removed from a team's team salary, they no longer have any rights to that player, whether it be Bird rights or ROFR.
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Post#6 Re: Josh Childress caphold if he signs overse
Mon Jul 21, 2008 8:20 pm by FGump

In reading through the rules on renouncing and on RFA's, it looks like Atlanta can renounce Childress on Oct 2 and still retain RFA rights, and then get the Bird rights back also the next summer. That will allow them to fill up their roster and use cap room, albeit at the last minute with leftovers. But with his cap hold (about 15M?) he's effectively going to kill their cap room every summer from July 1 to Oct 1, unless they give up their ROFR on him.

It looks like an ingenious way by some smart agent to put pressure on the Hawks. Of course, if the Hawks get to a point where they are an over-the-cap operation, it loses its sting because tying up cap room when you have none, is merely a paper exercise.

If I'm Atlanta and Childress signs, I'd consider another very aggressive course that would trump the agent. (Am I missing something in the outline below?)

Since the Hawks will be setting aside cap room now for Childress that (given he has a signed contract) they are certain would open in October, doesn't that give them MAJOR spending room in Oct to take a run at RFA-players-without-deals like Biedrins, Okafor, Ellis, Deng, Igoudala, and so on? Looks to me like they get full freedom to have their cake (player rights under control on JC going forward) and eat it too (big spending room) if they can just get to Oct 2 ... and obviously once Childress signs overseas, they can make a really attractive pitch to another team's RFA: "We'll have $15M on Oct 2. If you wait, we'll offer you the deal you deserve, for $X."
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Post#7 Re: Josh Childress caphold if he signs overse
Mon Jul 21, 2008 9:16 pm by Dunkenstein

Atlanta currently has $51.5M in committed salaries. Once they sign Josh Smith, they will no doubt be over the cap. So how are they going to have $15M in cap space to offer a free agent on Oct 2? The most they'll have is the MLE which they can use now if they want.

Also what is the section of the CBA that you say states you can renounce a player on Oct 2 and still retain his RFA rights? Are you sure that it doesn't say that you can withdraw the QO on Oct 2 and still retain RFA rights? Withdrawing a QO is not the same as renouncing a player. And even if you withdraw a QO, the player's cap hold remains on the team's team salary unless you renounce him. And if you renounce him, you lose all rights to the player, both Bird rights and ROFL.
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Post#8 Re: Josh Childress caphold if he signs overse
Mon Jul 21, 2008 10:56 pm by FGump

Dunkenstein wrote: Atlanta currently has $51.5M in committed salaries. Once they sign Josh Smith, they will no doubt be over the cap. So how are they going to have $15M in cap space to offer a free agent on Oct 2? The most they'll have is the MLE which they can use now if they want.


I was thinking ATL was an under-cap team, with the holds for JC and JS taking up the bulk of their available cap room. Didn't even look.

But if they are an over-cap team as we speak, they have no downside here and this discussion is moot, yes? They can just leave the cap-hold on the books and go their merry way. They have nothing at risk.

Dunkenstein wrote:
1. Also what is the section of the CBA that you say states you can renounce a player on Oct 2 and still retain his RFA rights?
2. Are you sure that it doesn't say that you can withdraw the QO on Oct 2 and still retain RFA rights? 3. Withdrawing a QO is not the same as renouncing a player.
4. And even if you withdraw a QO, the player's cap hold remains on the team's team salary unless you renounce him.
5. And if you renounce him, you lose all rights to the player, both Bird rights and ROFL.


I'll trade you chapter and verse, but I'd ask you to do the same if you disagree.
1. Art VII Sec 4 g (2) "A Team cannot renounce any player to whom the Team has made a Qualifying Offer until such time as the Qualifying Offer is no longer in effect."
2,3. It says that the QO has to extend at least until its expiration date (presumably Oct 1, which is the CBA-required earliest date a QO may expire if unaccepted). Once it expires, then you can renounce as cited.
In addition, it says explicitly re RFA rights Art XI Sec 4 c (ii) "If a Qualifying Offer is neither withdrawn nor accepted and the deadline for accepting it passes, the Team’s Right of First Refusal shall continue, subject to Section 5(a) below."
Sec 5a merely talks about a team's responsibilities to re-make the QO in future years, and I don't see "unless he is subsequently renounced" listed as something that would otherwise keep the ROFR rights from continuing.
4. I agree that the players cap hold remains unless you renounce him. So that's why you'd do so.
5. I fail to find that linkage in the CBA. Can you? I think they are separate issues unless otherwise stated.

In summary, I think you are regarding "renouncing" as equating to a waiver. But as I see it, what you are renouncing is not the player, but merely the veteran cap-busting options you'd otherwise have to sign him with if needed. So in my view you still retain some other rights, it's not the same as a waiver, and those Bird rights are even restored the next July if he hasn't signed in the interim.

I don't see any CBA wording saying a team loses it's ROFR in such a circumstance. Do you? All I see is that the team has to have "room" if they want to sign him after renouncing.
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Post#9 Re: Josh Childress caphold if he signs overse
Tue Jul 22, 2008 12:24 am by Dunkenstein

Yes I believe that renouncing a player is tantamount to waiving him.

Art VII, Sect 4 (g) states "If a Team renounces a Veteran Free Agent, the player will no longer qualify as a Qualifying Veteran Free Agent, Early Qualifying Veteran Free Agent, or Non-Qualifying Veteran Free Agent, as the case may be, and the Team will only be permitted to re-sign such player with Room (i.e., the Team cannot sign such player pursuant to Section 6(b) below) or pursuant to the Minimum Player Salary Exception."

Please note the phrase "If a team renounces a Veteran Free Agent". To me, that means renouncing the Player, not (as you put it) "merely the veteran cap-busting options you'd otherwise have to sign him with if needed."

Art XI, Sect 4 discusses how certain Veteran Free Agents become Restricted Free Agents which allows their teams the ROFR. I contend that upon renouncement, the player is no longer a Veteran Free Agent of the team that renounced him and therefore the team has no ROFR. There may not be specific language in the CBA to that effect, but trust me, any GM in the league will tell you that's the case.

Also, where does it say that a renounced player's Bird Rights are restored the next July if he hasn't signed in the interim?
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Post#10 Re: Josh Childress caphold if he signs overse
Tue Jul 22, 2008 12:47 am by FGump

I believe you are dead wrong in equating renounce and waiver. They just aren't the same at all, and maybe that's the issue here. I'd hoped if you disagreed you'd find me wording in the CBA rather than just making a presumptive leap, because this one is from a very flawed foundation.

As to your final question, I've seen it in the CBA, but that online doc is a beating to work through for me. If you'll take Coon's word for it rather than having me chase the exact CBA wording, here are two very vivid ways renounce is very different than waiver (one is your answer) ...

"By renouncing a player, a team gives up its right until the following June 30 to use the Larry Bird, Early Bird, or Non-Bird exceptions (see question number 19) to re-sign that player." 33

"After renouncing a player, a team can still trade the player in a sign-and-trade agreement" 33

Both of those are starkly different from what you can do with a waived player. As you can see, when you renounce, he's still regarded as YOUR free agent. You are just limiting your cap options to sign him, and accordingly the cap effect he has on your team.
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Post#11 Re: Josh Childress caphold if he signs overse
Tue Jul 22, 2008 12:59 am by Dunkenstein

If Larry says it, I'll take his word for it.
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Post#12 Re: Josh Childress caphold if he signs overse
Tue Jul 22, 2008 1:14 am by bgwizarfan

okay first things first. Gump, I know the last time we brought this up, we agreed that if the expiration date of a QO expired, then a player could still be a restricted free agent if the team renounced him. Dunk, I think you were mixing up EXPIRATION with WITHDRAWAL, two very different things when it comes to QO. But Gump, I think we were wrong...this is from Article XI:

(k) A Team that holds the Right of First Refusal with respect to a Restricted Free Agent may relinquish such Right of First Refusal at any time except during the period that the player has been given to accept a Qualifying Offer. If a Team relinquishes its Right of First Refusal with respect to a Restricted Free Agent, the player shall immediately become an Unrestricted Free Agent and the Team shall be deemed to have renounced the player in accordance with Article VII, Section 4(g) hereof. In order to relinquish its Right of First Refusal with respect to a Restricted Free Agent, a Team shall provide the NBA with an express, written statement relinquishing such Right of First Refusal. The NBA shall provide a copy of such statement to the Players Association by fax or e-mail within three (3) business days following its receipt thereof.

To me, "Relinquishing such right of first refusal" is the same thing as renouncing. So I think the answer is that you cannot ever renounce a restricted free agent. however, you can relinquish your rights to that restricted free agent (same as renouncing for unrestricted), but he becomes unrestricted automatically and is seen as being renounced. so there's that.

I'm in gumps camp with renouncing and waiving... they're clearly not the same language-wise in the CBA, though i do admit the affect is similar if the whole 1 year June 30th issue is not in play as Dunk's saying... I've always assumed the June 30th thing was right, but I can't find it in the CBA right now
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Post#13 Re: Josh Childress caphold if he signs overse
Tue Jul 22, 2008 1:32 am by FGump

Notice that the item you quoted says exactly what I said it did. Not sure why you tried to spin my words in a different direction.

YOU SAID
Dunkenstein wrote: Yes I believe that renouncing a player is tantamount to waiving him.

Art VII, Sect 4 (g) states "If a Team renounces a Veteran Free Agent, the player will no longer qualify as a Qualifying Veteran Free Agent, Early Qualifying Veteran Free Agent, or Non-Qualifying Veteran Free Agent, as the case may be, and the Team will only be permitted to re-sign such player with Room (i.e., the Team cannot sign such player pursuant to Section 6(b) below) or pursuant to the Minimum Player Salary Exception."

Please note the phrase "If a team renounces a Veteran Free Agent". To me, that means renouncing the Player.....


LET ME STOP YOU RIGHT THERE .... I never said renouncing somehow wasn't renouncing. My disagreement is on the ramifications of such a renouncement (of this type), and the ramifications are (as I put it before) "[a giving up of] merely the veteran cap-busting options you'd otherwise have to sign him with if needed."

Notice that wording in the rule. When you renounce a player WHO QUALIFIES as x, y, or z ... then (just as I said it) "the player will no longer qualify as a Qualifying Veteran Free Agent, Early Qualifying Veteran Free Agent, or Non-Qualifying Veteran Free Agent." But it doesn't say he isn't YOUR free agent any longer. You haven't waived him. You've just renounced your rights to sign him using one of those 3 classes of latitude given to former teams to keep their existing players

Dunkenstein wrote: I contend that upon renouncement, the player is no longer a Veteran Free Agent of the team that renounced him and therefore the team has no ROFR.


As the examples I gave you from Coon demonstrated, your contention is obviously wrong. They have rights to the player in some ways, therefore he still remains a VFA of the team, albeit one for whom they have no special cap latitude to re-sign him.

Dunkenstein wrote: There may not be specific language in the CBA to that effect, but trust me, any GM in the league will tell you that's the case


And why do you resort to the blustery "every GM in the league will tell you I'm right" concept, Dunk? Is this a cousin to "I know I'm right, no matter what the CBA says" or "thats what my source told me and he's never wrong"? Maybe you know and converse with every GM in the league, and know their stance on this issue. Or maybe not. But tossing out such an arrogant "I know because I know all 30 GMs and converse with them regularly and you don't" posture? Come on, man. You're better than that.

I gave you the respect to look up my points and cite them. I'd think you could do the same.

Lacking that, I still am convinced you can keep ROFR rights even after renouncing a player. But I'll be glad to admit I'm wrong if the CBA says so rather than some vague conversation with GMs (and if it's from Baylor or McHale or Isiah or the like and we rely on the info, heaven help us!). Frankly, from the limited conversations I've had with GMs, they DON'T always know obscure intricacies like these and don't even claim to, but you may know better.
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Post#14 Re: Josh Childress caphold if he signs overse
Tue Jul 22, 2008 1:48 am by FGump

Bgwiz, I'm not sure I agree. I read that portion while trying to get a handle on this discussion, and It definitely says "if you get rid of your ROFR, you must also renounce the player.".

But I still don't see the linkage that says the reverse ie "if you renounce the player you MUST forfeit your ROFR."

And to assume the reverse is a major no-no in logic.

"If we are at McDonald's, we'll get ice cream" is not the same as "If we get ice cream, we'll are at McDonald's." By the same token, "If you forfeit your ROFR, you are also renouncing" is not the same as "If you are renouncing, you are also forfeiting your ROFR" and to make that assumption is fallacious.
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Post#15 Re: Josh Childress caphold if he signs overse
Tue Jul 22, 2008 2:37 am by Dunkenstein

FGump wrote:I still am convinced you can keep ROFR rights even after renouncing a player.

Last year Orlando renounced the rights to RFA Darko Milicic in order to sign Rashard Lewis. Subsequent to that, Memphis signed Milicic to a contract. If what you say is true, wouldn't Memphis have had to sign Milicic to an offer sheet which Orlando would have had the right to match?
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Post#16 Re: Josh Childress caphold if he signs overse
Tue Jul 22, 2008 3:46 am by FGump

Dunkenstein wrote:
FGump wrote:I still am convinced you can keep ROFR rights even after renouncing a player.

Last year Orlando renounced the rights to RFA Darko Milicic in order to sign Rashard Lewis. Subsequent to that, Memphis signed Milicic to a contract. If what you say is true, wouldn't Memphis have had to sign Milicic to an offer sheet which Orlando would have had the right to match?


"Last year Orlando renounced the rights to RFA Darko Milicic in order to sign Rashard Lewis"????

No they didn't "renounce" him when he was a RFA, Dunk. You've forgotten what happened.

1. They made him a QO on 7/1 per the rules.

2. They reached a verbal deal with Lewis on 7/2 or 7/3 and realized they could have problems if Darko took their QO..

3. On 7/3 they withdrew the QO. That made Darko unrestricted. Some erroneous reports arose that said he had been renounced, but that wasn't accurate.

http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/news/story?id=2925284
One day after coming to a verbal agreement with free agent Rashard Lewis, the Orlando Magic withdrew their qualifying offer for restricted free agent Darko Milicic on Tuesday.

In effect, the move means the Magic have made Milicic an unrestricted free agent. However the team still retains the right to go over the salary cap to re-sign him (commonly referred to in the NBA as "Bird Rights") and could also work on a sign-and-trade with Seattle or another team.


4. That's why he was not a RFA.

5. The Magic reportedly tried to make a SNT deal for Lewis using Darko with his Bird rights, but couldn't make it happen.

6. On 7/11 he was renounced to free up the needed cap room to pay Lewis in the SNT with Seattle. He signed two days later with Memphis.
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Post#17 Re: Josh Childress caphold if he signs overse
Tue Jul 22, 2008 7:24 am by bgwizarfan

gump, my point is that I don't think there is such a thing as renouncing a Restricted Free Agent, and I think that's why the CBA puts that clause in there.... "and the Team shall be deemed to have renounced the player in accordance with Article VII." To me, that's just saying it then has the same effect as renouncing

because think about it, it says you can relinquish your right of first refusal at ANY time EXCEPT when a player has been issued a QO....so thinking about it, it really is tailor made for the situation we're talking about, because if a QO isn't on the table, then the player is unrestricted unless unless it has expired before March 1. So since this clause is referring to the same small instance we're talking about, I think it has to mean that you can't renounce a player and keep his restricted rights.
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Post#18 Re: Josh Childress caphold if he signs overse
Tue Jul 22, 2008 8:17 am by killbuckner

When you renounce a player one offseason, you really get their bird rights back the next offseason?
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Post#19 Re: Josh Childress caphold if he signs overse
Tue Jul 22, 2008 9:06 am by FGump

Bgwiz, my take is different. It's that the reason there is no special wording on renouncing a RFA is because the result is not any different from renouncing a UFA. Renouncing only erases the cap hold and the rights you get to bust the cap. But it has nothing to do with that ROFR ability.

You said earlier that in your eyes "Relinquishing such right of first refusal" is the same thing as renouncing." I totally disagree - as I noted before, reversing an if/then isn't valid logically - but let me go back and address that point, because I think it touches on something important to mention that might be helpful..

What is "renouncing"? It is nothing more than INTENTIONALLY TRASHING YOUR CAP-BREAKING BIRD (OR VETERAN) RIGHTS you have on a player. And think about it: renouncing is purely a CAP-RELATED issue designed to change a team's cap total. And that very same concept is repeated in a ton of ways in the CBA, sorta like a theme. If you do x, y, or z you LOSE BIRD RIGHTS. None of those are the same as renouncing, they are completely independent acts, but beware - if you do them you LOSE BIRD RIGHTS ETC TOO. That's the message. It's kinda like a penalty to your cap flexibility in many of its uses.

But the loss of Bird Etc Rights itself IS the penalty in and of itself. So if a team voluntarily renounces, it would follow that there wouldn't be an ADDED penalty heaped on top for doing so.

In contrast, ROFR / RFA has absolutely NOTHING to do with a team's cap. Instead, it has to do with enhancing a team's ability to keep its own players. So logically, those issues would NOT be tied together because they are two completely different realms of rules and regulations.



Kill, yes of course. Assuming he doesn't sign elsewhere in the meantime.
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Post#20 Re: Josh Childress caphold if he signs overse
Tue Jul 22, 2008 2:55 pm by LarryCoon

killbuckner wrote:When you renounce a player one offseason, you really get their bird rights back the next offseason?


I had an interesting set of emails with a few people last night & this morning, where this came up. Dunleavy said the Clips had an advantage with Livingston, because even though they renounced him this summer, they could still sign him to a big contract next summer. I got an email from a friend questioning that, and replied that yes, it was true. Then I got an email from Dunkenstein asking about where to find that rule in the CBA, and I did some research.

It turns out the one-season limitation on renouncing was removed from the current CBA, and I never caught it. I emailed a team official to find out if it was a mistake that was later corrected, and was told no, now once they're gone, they;'re gone.

So I learned something new this morning (thanks, Dunk!) and have updated my FAQ accordingly.
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