Greatest non-USA team

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Re: Greatest non-USA team 

Post#21 » by yannisk » Sat Feb 25, 2017 7:41 pm

Genjuro wrote:
Mirotic12 wrote:
Genjuro wrote:We're talking about top level here. The Eurobasket may very well enjoy a better average talent, but when it comes to winning gold you will eventually face tougher competition at the world stage, which is just obvious. That's why only the Soviet Unión, Yugoslavia/Serbia and Spain have ever managed to do it. Meanwhile, besides those countries, there's also Lithuania, Italy, Germany, Greece or France topping the Eurobasket.

I'm really sorry if your favourite country has never managed, but it's clearly a lot more difficult to win a World Championship. Just get over it.


Basically almost every coach and player asked has said EuroBasket is the hardest tournament by far. On one hand we have that, then on the other hand, we have your personal opinion.

Sorry, if your personal opinion is outweighed and overruled by the numerous opinions of experts on the subject. But it most definitely and certainly is.


What personal opinion? I gave you facts.

I don't care what a random coach/player says. They often have an agenda when talking, and they may very well refer to average level rather than grabbing gold. If they are talking during a Eurobasket summer, they will stress how difficult it is either to justify failure (usually preventively) or to enlarge triumph. I would love to hear any of those dudes saying something like that while playing the World Championship. So let's hear those numerous opinions, bring them here.


World championship has USA who is the overwhelming favorite, and you also have Brazil, Argentina, Australia that periodically have good teams. But you have less number of good European teams and also a number of weak teams from other conferences.

Eurobasket has a more level playing field. Most knockout matches are competitive.

The main difference is USA who usually are very strong, so that makes WC more difficult to win, but if they send a college team, or someone else manages to knock them out before you face them then WC becomes a competition like eurobasket. The last non-USA team that won wc was Spain in 2006, they faced good teams, Lithuania, Argentina, Greece. Russia next year won eurobasket 2007, they faced France, Lithuania, Spain. I don't see a big difference in competition.

Actually now that I am thinking about it the only other time USA lost in WC with NBA players was in 2002, correct?
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Re: Greatest non-USA team 

Post#22 » by Mirotic12 » Sat Feb 25, 2017 11:24 pm

Genjuro wrote:
Mirotic12 wrote:
Genjuro wrote:We're talking about top level here. The Eurobasket may very well enjoy a better average talent, but when it comes to winning gold you will eventually face tougher competition at the world stage, which is just obvious. That's why only the Soviet Unión, Yugoslavia/Serbia and Spain have ever managed to do it. Meanwhile, besides those countries, there's also Lithuania, Italy, Germany, Greece or France topping the Eurobasket.

I'm really sorry if your favourite country has never managed, but it's clearly a lot more difficult to win a World Championship. Just get over it.


Basically almost every coach and player asked has said EuroBasket is the hardest tournament by far. On one hand we have that, then on the other hand, we have your personal opinion.

Sorry, if your personal opinion is outweighed and overruled by the numerous opinions of experts on the subject. But it most definitely and certainly is.


What personal opinion? I gave you facts.

I don't care what a random coach/player says. They often have an agenda when talking, and they may very well refer to average level rather than grabbing gold. If they are talking during a Eurobasket summer, they will stress how difficult it is either to justify failure (usually preventively) or to enlarge triumph. I would love to hear any of those dudes saying something like that while playing the World Championship. So let's hear those numerous opinions, bring them here.


Anyone can look at the teams in World Cup and the teams in EuroBasket and see EuroBasket is way higher level of competition. Team USA (ONE TEAM) does not make a tournament, and most certainly does not switch the entire quality and level of the tournament.

Brazil, Argentina, China, Australia, New Zealand, Puerto Rico's of the world have never been at the level of first tier European teams, except one brief 6 year period for just Argentina, and most of the time they are not even at the same level as 2nd tier European teams, like as is the case right now. They actually lower the level of the World Cup as compared to the tournament with just European teams.
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Re: Greatest non-USA team 

Post#23 » by Genjuro » Sun Feb 26, 2017 12:44 pm

Mirotic12 wrote:
Genjuro wrote:
Mirotic12 wrote:
Basically almost every coach and player asked has said EuroBasket is the hardest tournament by far. On one hand we have that, then on the other hand, we have your personal opinion.

Sorry, if your personal opinion is outweighed and overruled by the numerous opinions of experts on the subject. But it most definitely and certainly is.


What personal opinion? I gave you facts.

I don't care what a random coach/player says. They often have an agenda when talking, and they may very well refer to average level rather than grabbing gold. If they are talking during a Eurobasket summer, they will stress how difficult it is either to justify failure (usually preventively) or to enlarge triumph. I would love to hear any of those dudes saying something like that while playing the World Championship. So let's hear those numerous opinions, bring them here.


Anyone can look at the teams in World Cup and the teams in EuroBasket and see EuroBasket is way higher level of competition. Team USA (ONE TEAM) does not make a tournament, and most certainly does not switch the entire quality and level of the tournament.

Brazil, Argentina, China, Australia, New Zealand, Puerto Rico's of the world have never been at the level of first tier European teams, except one brief 6 year period for just Argentina, and most of the time they are not even at the same level as 2nd tier European teams, like as is the case right now. They actually lower the level of the World Cup as compared to the tournament with just European teams.


Team USA is enough to make it a more difficult tournament to win, because you usually have that first tier of European teams as well. You can't just ignore a team that usually features overwhelmingly more talent than anybody else, that has won the last two championships, and four out of the last seven (medalling in six of those). Which is the reason why only USSR, Yugoslavia/Serbia and Spain have ever managed to win the competition.

Actually, I don't think Spain would've ever managed to win the WC withouth Greece beating the USA in the 2006 semis. Meanwhile, two out of the three Eurobaskets Spain has won were pretty much a walk in the park. And they might have clinched a couple more had Pau Gasol played in 2005 and 2013. I mean, Spain has won every single Eurobasket played by Pau Gasol since 2009 (and were a basket away from winning 2007 as well), while they have never been close to win at world stage in that period. Yes, the USA makes a huge difference.

You take all the WC champions, every single one of them, and they have always been a historically great team. Always. Spain of the 2006-12 period, Serbia in 1995-2002, Yugoslavia in 1989-91 and in the 70s, URSS of the 80s and so on. And the USA, of course. There's no cinderella, no minor team. You have always needed an all-time great team to win the WC. Even the closest team to win it that never managed, Argentina in 2002, qualifies as an all-time great as well. So it's not even a matter of luck. Whereas Italy, Germany, Russia, Greece, France or Lithuania winning the Eurobasket, some of them really fantastic teams, are not that historically great.

What else do you want? It's blatantly obvious.
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Re: Greatest non-USA team 

Post#24 » by Fotis St » Sun Feb 26, 2017 1:46 pm

Throwing dirt to Greece 2006, the last team that beat Team USA is beyond stupid or jealousy.

That team is historic by default.

Mixing that team with France Germany Lithuania is disrespectful.

Since the measurement of this topic is USA... Than Greece 2006 has a high place ranking any team
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Re: Greatest non-USA team 

Post#25 » by Genjuro » Sun Feb 26, 2017 2:56 pm

Fotis St wrote:Throwing dirt to Greece 2006, the last team that beat Team USA is beyond stupid or jealousy.

That team is historic by default.

Mixing that team with France Germany Lithuania is disrespectful.

Since the measurement of this topic is USA... Than Greece 2006 has a high place ranking any team


To me that's an all-time great victory, but it doesn't make an all-time great team, even if we're talking about a fantastic squad. It's a different tier. That was one single game, just as the final (turd) against Spain was another game, and they won the most depleted (at the top) Eurobasket of this century. IMO even the 2003-08 Lithuania is clearly better than the 2005-09 Greece, and I would rank the 2011-15 France in the same tier.
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Re: Greatest non-USA team 

Post#26 » by Fotis St » Sun Feb 26, 2017 3:07 pm

Genjuro...I rank your opinion at the bottom of RealGM posters
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Re: Greatest non-USA team 

Post#27 » by Genjuro » Sun Feb 26, 2017 4:46 pm

Fotis St wrote:Genjuro...I rank your opinion at the bottom of RealGM posters

Who cares?
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Re: Greatest non-USA team 

Post#28 » by yannisk » Mon Feb 27, 2017 7:46 pm

Genjuro wrote:
Fotis St wrote:Throwing dirt to Greece 2006, the last team that beat Team USA is beyond stupid or jealousy.

That team is historic by default.

Mixing that team with France Germany Lithuania is disrespectful.

Since the measurement of this topic is USA... Than Greece 2006 has a high place ranking any team


To me that's an all-time great victory, but it doesn't make an all-time great team, even if we're talking about a fantastic squad. It's a different tier. That was one single game, just as the final (turd) against Spain was another game, and they won the most depleted (at the top) Eurobasket of this century. IMO even the 2003-08 Lithuania is clearly better than the 2005-09 Greece, and I would rank the 2011-15 France in the same tier.


Greece between 2005-2009 had a gold, bronze in eurobasket and silver in WC
Lithuania between 2003-2008 had a gold and a bronze in eurobasket
France 2011-2015 had gold, silver in eurobasket and bronze in WC

Lithuania looks having the least success, but the 2003 team was fantastic.

Why do you put asterisks in the 2005 eurobasket victory? Greece won the available competition and proved that they were deserving champions by reaching the final of WC the next year, being the last team to beat the USA on the way. You mention USSR as a great team that won the WC (which they were) but they won WC when USA was fielding college teams.

And what was so special with eurobasket 2005? I suppose some players were missing? that happens every time. Greece beat France, with Parker, Rigaudeau, Diaw, Russia with Kirilenko, and Germany with Dirk. Are we going to discard competitions that Gasol decides not to play? Jasikevicius did not play in 2006 either, so this competition isn't valid I suppose. If you take any competition you will find some players missing (some times Greek ones as well :D ).

Now about the question of the Greatest non-USA team I think it is clearly former Yugoslavia 1989-1991, the talent level was amazing, they had great depth, height, coaching they were also going to get better as it was still a very young team. Later Serbia dominated with only a fraction of the squad.

Then it is USSR in the 80s and Spain during the last decade. Argentina is also close,

But If we look further in the past Yugoslavia during the 70s was probably the most successful
WC gold 1970,1978 silver 1974
Olympics gold 1980, silver 1976, 1968,
Eurobasket gold 1973, 1975, 1977, silver 1971, 1969, 1981
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Re: Greatest non-USA team 

Post#29 » by pohani komarac » Mon Feb 27, 2017 10:36 pm

Genjuro wrote:Two tiers, in random order:

Yugoslavia 89-91
Argentina 01-04
Spain 06-12

USSR mid 80s
Serbia & Montenegro 95-02


I agree
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Re: Greatest non-USA team 

Post#30 » by Genjuro » Tue Feb 28, 2017 12:35 am

yannisk wrote:
Genjuro wrote:
Fotis St wrote:Throwing dirt to Greece 2006, the last team that beat Team USA is beyond stupid or jealousy.

That team is historic by default.

Mixing that team with France Germany Lithuania is disrespectful.

Since the measurement of this topic is USA... Than Greece 2006 has a high place ranking any team


To me that's an all-time great victory, but it doesn't make an all-time great team, even if we're talking about a fantastic squad. It's a different tier. That was one single game, just as the final (turd) against Spain was another game, and they won the most depleted (at the top) Eurobasket of this century. IMO even the 2003-08 Lithuania is clearly better than the 2005-09 Greece, and I would rank the 2011-15 France in the same tier.


Greece between 2005-2009 had a gold, bronze in eurobasket and silver in WC
Lithuania between 2003-2008 had a gold and a bronze in eurobasket
France 2011-2015 had gold, silver in eurobasket and bronze in WC

Lithuania looks having the least success, but the 2003 team was fantastic.

Why do you put asterisks in the 2005 eurobasket victory? Greece won the available competition and proved that they were deserving champions by reaching the final of WC the next year, being the last team to beat the USA on the way. You mention USSR as a great team that won the WC (which they were) but they won WC when USA was fielding college teams.

And what was so special with eurobasket 2005? I suppose some players were missing? that happens every time. Greece beat France, with Parker, Rigaudeau, Diaw, Russia with Kirilenko, and Germany with Dirk. Are we going to discard competitions that Gasol decides not to play? Jasikevicius did not play in 2006 either, so this competition isn't valid I suppose. If you take any competition you will find some players missing (some times Greek ones as well :D ).

Well, Greece has better achievements in that period, even if Lithuania was also semifinalist at the 2004 and 2008 Olympics. And yet, watching those tournaments, I still think Lithuania was a better team. Indeed I believe the 2004 team was just as good as the 2003 one. To me Greece has never been that good as Lithuania in those two years. It's a matter of opinion, of course.

As for the 2005 Eurobasket, I think it was a great tournament full of excitement (well, except for the final medal round), with an excellent average level and plenty of uncertainty. I've just said that it was depleted at the top, because what should've been the clear-cut top-2 favourites were dramatically short-handed. I don't remember a circumstance like that happening in any other Eurobasket of this century. And Greece were deserving champions, of course. That's not putting asteriks, that's explaining the reality.

By the way, I've also said that I didn't think Spain would've won the 2006 WC without Greece beating the USA, and yet nobody is accusing me of putting asteriks to the Spanish victory. Weird...

And USSR was a great team by FIBA standards.
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Re: Greatest non-USA team 

Post#31 » by Fotis St » Tue Feb 28, 2017 1:08 am

First tiers ... Alphabetic order ... Argentina 2004, Greece 2006, Spain 2008
Second tiers France, Lithuania
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Re: Greatest non-USA team 

Post#32 » by yannisk » Tue Feb 28, 2017 7:47 am

Genjuro wrote:I believe the 2004 team was just as good as the 2003 one. To me Greece has never been that good as Lithuania in those two years. It's a matter of opinion, of course.


I don't disagree with that. They had a great team and for sure played a more attractive basketball. But teams have their cycles, Stombergas stopped, Sarunas was pushing 30. They were in decline, it is not like 2005 was an off year for them, they never had the 2003 team after 2004. As for Spain, I believe only Gasol was missing, I wouldn't call this depleted.
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Re: Greatest non-USA team 

Post#33 » by Genjuro » Tue Feb 28, 2017 10:12 am

yannisk wrote:
Genjuro wrote:I believe the 2004 team was just as good as the 2003 one. To me Greece has never been that good as Lithuania in those two years. It's a matter of opinion, of course.


I don't disagree with that. They had a great team and for sure played a more attractive basketball. But teams have their cycles, Stombergas stopped, Sarunas was pushing 30. They were in decline, it is not like 2005 was an off year for them, they never had the 2003 team after 2004. As for Spain, I believe only Gasol was missing, I wouldn't call this depleted.


The 2005 and 2006 teams were certainly weaker without Jasikevicius, although they fared decently given the circumstances. 2007 and 2008 were really good for Lithuania again, although not at the same level as the 03-04 years. By the way, Lithuania did beat Greece for the bronze medal in 2007. To me the 2003-04 Lithuania is better than the 2005-06 Greece, and also the 2007-08 Lithuania seems superior to the 2007-09 Greece.

Still, if we put the whole period together (Lithuania's 2003-08 vs. Greece's 2004-09) Greece offers a better continuity and makes a good argument, but still I don't think it's enough to place them on the same level as Lithuania.

Fotis St wrote:First tiers ... Alphabetic order ... Argentina 2004, Greece 2006, Spain 2008
Second tiers France, Lithuania


This a highly flawed ranking, I would say. I mean, if we go by results, then I don't see why Spain is not credited for 2006 and, of course, a tier above Greece. If we go by playing level, I don't see why Argentina gets credited for 2004 instead of 2002, when they were clearly superior.
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Re: Greatest non-USA team 

Post#34 » by yannisk » Tue Feb 28, 2017 3:24 pm

Genjuro wrote: To me the 2003-04 Lithuania is better than the 2005-06 Greece


I don't necessarily agree or disagree, it is a valid opinion. What I don't like is that since medals don't go along with this opinion you are reducing the value of eurobasket 2005.

Serbia won eurobasket 2001 and WC 2002, they would be the clear favorite for 2003 with a full squad, but they were missing Bodiroga, Rakosevic,Tomasevic, Tarlac. (You could even say Divac was missing since he played in 2002 and was still active)

Russia won eurobasket 2007 having Kirilenko as tournament MVP. He did not take part in eurobasket 2009, neither did Khryapa. So the defending champions played without their two best players.

Do 2003, 2009 become like 2005 now?
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Re: Greatest non-USA team 

Post#35 » by Genjuro » Tue Feb 28, 2017 4:51 pm

yannisk wrote:
Genjuro wrote: To me the 2003-04 Lithuania is better than the 2005-06 Greece


I don't necessarily agree or disagree, it is a valid opinion. What I don't like is that since medals don't go along with this opinion you are reducing the value of eurobasket 2005.

Serbia won eurobasket 2001 and WC 2002, they would be the clear favorite for 2003 with a full squad, but they were missing Bodiroga, Rakosevic,Tomasevic, Tarlac. (You could even say Divac was missing since he played in 2002 and was still active)

Russia won eurobasket 2007 having Kirilenko as tournament MVP. He did not take part in eurobasket 2009, neither did Khryapa. So the defending champions played without their two best players.

Do 2003, 2009 become like 2005 now?


2009 still featured the clear-cut best European team at full force, Spain. That's exactly the kind of team 2005 didn't have.

But yeah, you might be right about 2003, although again I consider that Lithuania better than any 2005 team.

On the other hand, for example the 2007 Russian victory was IMO utterly impressive because of the opponents. Or in 2011 Spain and France (with Noah) were super-strong. In 2001 perhaps Serbia didn't face great opponents, but they were so superior to everybody else that it makes a difference.

All in all, you have to look at the field and how dominant the winner has been in order to evaluate the quality of the victory. It's always a great accomplishment, but obviously the quality of the tournament and of the winner changes.
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Re: Greatest non-USA team 

Post#36 » by Mirotic12 » Tue Feb 28, 2017 11:38 pm

Genjuro wrote:Team USA is enough to make it a more difficult tournament to win, because you usually have that first tier of European teams as well. You can't just ignore a team that usually features overwhelmingly more talent than anybody else, that has won the last two championships, and four out of the last seven (medalling in six of those). Which is the reason why only USSR, Yugoslavia/Serbia and Spain have ever managed to win the competition.

Actually, I don't think Spain would've ever managed to win the WC withouth Greece beating the USA in the 2006 semis. Meanwhile, two out of the three Eurobaskets Spain has won were pretty much a walk in the park. And they might have clinched a couple more had Pau Gasol played in 2005 and 2013. I mean, Spain has won every single Eurobasket played by Pau Gasol since 2009 (and were a basket away from winning 2007 as well), while they have never been close to win at world stage in that period. Yes, the USA makes a huge difference.

You take all the WC champions, every single one of them, and they have always been a historically great team. Always. Spain of the 2006-12 period, Serbia in 1995-2002, Yugoslavia in 1989-91 and in the 70s, URSS of the 80s and so on. And the USA, of course. There's no cinderella, no minor team. You have always needed an all-time great team to win the WC. Even the closest team to win it that never managed, Argentina in 2002, qualifies as an all-time great as well. So it's not even a matter of luck. Whereas Italy, Germany, Russia, Greece, France or Lithuania winning the Eurobasket, some of them really fantastic teams, are not that historically great.

What else do you want? It's blatantly obvious.


It's starting to become blatantly obvious that you have never seen a EuroBasket tournament.
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Re: Greatest non-USA team 

Post#37 » by Genjuro » Wed Mar 1, 2017 12:03 am

Mirotic12 wrote:
Genjuro wrote:Team USA is enough to make it a more difficult tournament to win, because you usually have that first tier of European teams as well. You can't just ignore a team that usually features overwhelmingly more talent than anybody else, that has won the last two championships, and four out of the last seven (medalling in six of those). Which is the reason why only USSR, Yugoslavia/Serbia and Spain have ever managed to win the competition.

Actually, I don't think Spain would've ever managed to win the WC withouth Greece beating the USA in the 2006 semis. Meanwhile, two out of the three Eurobaskets Spain has won were pretty much a walk in the park. And they might have clinched a couple more had Pau Gasol played in 2005 and 2013. I mean, Spain has won every single Eurobasket played by Pau Gasol since 2009 (and were a basket away from winning 2007 as well), while they have never been close to win at world stage in that period. Yes, the USA makes a huge difference.

You take all the WC champions, every single one of them, and they have always been a historically great team. Always. Spain of the 2006-12 period, Serbia in 1995-2002, Yugoslavia in 1989-91 and in the 70s, URSS of the 80s and so on. And the USA, of course. There's no cinderella, no minor team. You have always needed an all-time great team to win the WC. Even the closest team to win it that never managed, Argentina in 2002, qualifies as an all-time great as well. So it's not even a matter of luck. Whereas Italy, Germany, Russia, Greece, France or Lithuania winning the Eurobasket, some of them really fantastic teams, are not that historically great.

What else do you want? It's blatantly obvious.


It's starting to become blatantly obvious that you have never seen a EuroBasket tournament.


Wow, I'm impressed and overwhelmed by your argumentation. I'm almost convinced.
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Re: Greatest non-USA team 

Post#38 » by THE J0KER » Wed Apr 12, 2017 11:30 pm

Spain about 5 years ago in theory, but last team of former Yugoslavia in reality.

Problem with Spanish team at beginning of this decade is that out of 6 their best players (P.Gasol, M.Gasol, Ibaka, Calderon, Rubio, Navarro) there is 3 centers and 3 playmakers, meanwhile Yugoslavia/91 is almost perfectly balanced by positions.

I really like French Parker/De Colo/Batum/Diaw/Noah roster on theirs prime, but thanks to Joakim Noah boycott they played only once all together. Also Djordjevic, Bodiroga, Danilovic, Stojakovic and Divac never played for Serbia all together at the same tournament, so such "virtual" team from beginning of this century should not be counted.

National team with best team spirit of all times is Ginobili-Scola Argentina from first decade of this century IMO.
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Re: Greatest non-USA team 

Post#39 » by jinxed » Thu Apr 13, 2017 3:27 am

2006 Spanish WC Team, and it's not really close.

They went 9-0 in the tournament with an average margin of victory of 22 pts. They won the championship game 70-47 over a Greece team that just beat Team USA, and the Spaniards were playing without Pau that game.

No other international team has come close to that sort of dominance. Let's just reference two commonly noted teams.

1990 Yugoslavia. Lost to Puerto Rico. Went 7-1 in the tournament. Avg margin of victory = 10 points. Didn't have to play against American NBA players.

2004 Argentina Team. This team actually lost two games. One game to Italy and another to Spain. Spain only lost one game that tournament, a QF game against the USA.
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