Best player in international ball?

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Re: Best player in international ball? 

Post#21 » by mojo13 » Wed May 3, 2017 8:34 pm

Agenda driven? I am curious to hear the agenda you perceive.

What is it you find such BS here?
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Re: Best player in international ball? 

Post#22 » by UcanUwill » Thu May 4, 2017 9:12 am

would be interesting to see Aaron Jackson in the NBA, he has that Beverley-esque defense. His offense sucks tho, even with great handle he is barely an impact player on that end. I dont see Cedi Osman as NBA player.

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Re: Best player in international ball? 

Post#23 » by Mirotic12 » Thu May 4, 2017 8:53 pm

mojo13 wrote:Agenda driven? I am curious to hear the agenda you perceive.

What is it you find such BS here?


He's clearly trying to fabricate and totally make up a fake "system" to know which EuroLeague players "will translate to the NBA", and then to also use it to supposedly justify which ones he deems made it or not in the past.

Come on...that whole thing is complete BS.

UcanUwill wrote:would be interesting to see Aaron Jackson in the NBA, he has that Beverley-esque defense. His offense sucks tho, even with great handle he is barely an impact player on that end. I dont see Cedi Osman as NBA player.

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Aaron Jackson has changed a lot over the years, playing with Teodosic and now De Colo. He used to be a lock down defender, without any real offensive game, other than a very good handle.

Now, he plays very similar to De Colo and Teodosic......good all around offense, and almost zero defense. I don't even see him trying on defense anymore. It's strange, but he like became an exact opposite kind of player from what he was a few years ago. Maybe it's just CSKA's system and style. It's like the 3 guard rotation (Jackson, Teodosic, De Colo) plays no defense, while everyone else has to focus very hard on it. Itoudis has some strange basketball ideas as a coach. Jackson does show up on defense at the crucial games though, like in the final four, he always bring the D. Maybe he's just too old now to play D all the time, so he has to cherry pick.

Osman........athletic, good size, very good motor, and a good hustle and energy player. Other than that, nothing really.

My opinion is both of them can easily be NBA rotation players...but to say as the author suggests that they are the most "translatable" (such a stupid sports term being used in this way) in EuroLeague....well, that's absolutely laughable.

They are good role players with some talent, playing in big EuroLeague clubs. Yes, they can play in NBA, but so can pretty much every single rotation player in a big EuroLeague club. It's these kinds of articles that clearly show people that come from NBA perspective on EuroLeague simply can't view it accurately. It's like they have a built in preconceived notion and they are simply unable to move past it.

These are role players........in EuroLeague or NBA, they can play both roles (role players in either league). But there are so many more interesting players than them......I mean neither one of them even makes top 20 of players NBA should even consider from EuroLeague.
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Re: Best player in international ball? 

Post#24 » by Mirotic12 » Thu May 4, 2017 9:00 pm

double post
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Re: Best player in international ball? 

Post#25 » by mojo13 » Fri May 19, 2017 10:33 pm

UcanUwill wrote:
Patsfan1081 wrote:Who's been the best big man? I know there's been a lot of hype behind Zizic, does spending half the season in the Adriatic league make the numbers he's put up less impressive? How does he stack up to Bourousis talent wise?


Now thats a good question, who is the best bigman? I have no idea, Ekpe Udoh is probably my favorite, but he is very challenged offensively. Overseays ball definitely lacks offensive bigman, most of my favorites and best in my opinion are garbage men with good defense. Ekpe Udoh, Kyle Hines, Khem Birch, Bryan Dunston... They all very good at what they do.
Best bigman on O are probably Nikolo Melli, Paulius Jankunas, Georgios Printezis and Ante Tomic.

I have seen Zizic play couple of times this season, but he never stood out to me. Looking at his stats and highlights, he seem to be monster offensive rebounder and has nice touch around the rim. But I wouldn't call him a star in the making.


Ekpe Udoh looked like the best big man in Europe by a wide margin today.
18 points 8/12, 12 rebounds, 8 assists (!), 2 blocks and a steal. Nearly a triple double, in a semi final EL win over Real Madrid.
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Re: Best player in international ball? 

Post#26 » by Mirotic12 » Sat May 20, 2017 11:38 pm

mojo13 wrote:Ekpe Udoh looked like the best big man in Europe by a wide margin today.
18 points 8/12, 12 rebounds, 8 assists (!), 2 blocks and a steal. Nearly a triple double, in a semi final EL win over Real Madrid.


He's too limited of an all around player to be "the best big man in Europe". He's too lacking in offensive skills, and his effectiveness in other areas goes away against big men that can match his length and athletic ability.

He's a good player, but he's more just a perfect fit for how his team uses him, and the system they have. There are some much better all around big men than him in Europe.
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Re: Best player in international ball? 

Post#27 » by UcanUwill » Sun May 21, 2017 10:56 am

Mirotic12 wrote:
mojo13 wrote:Ekpe Udoh looked like the best big man in Europe by a wide margin today.
18 points 8/12, 12 rebounds, 8 assists (!), 2 blocks and a steal. Nearly a triple double, in a semi final EL win over Real Madrid.


He's too limited of an all around player to be "the best big man in Europe". He's too lacking in offensive skills, and his effectiveness in other areas goes away against big men that can match his length and athletic ability.

He's a good player, but he's more just a perfect fit for how his team uses him, and the system they have. There are some much better all around big men than him in Europe.


More well rounded? Yes. Better? Debatable.
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Re: Best player in international ball? 

Post#28 » by Mirotic12 » Sun May 21, 2017 5:04 pm

UcanUwill wrote:More well rounded? Yes. Better? Debatable.


Bourousis is definitely better overall, but he's getting too old now, so maybe you can say in his case, yes better all around, but not better. Felipe Reyes is too old now, so that takes him out of the discussion.

But there are some younger guys like Ante Tomic, Ante Zizic, or Johannes Voightmann in EuroLeague that are clearly better all around and overall. Even though I think Tomic is ridiculously soft mentally, I have to be objective, he's much better overall than someone like Udoh.

And I can't really see either how Udoh is any better at all than someone like Bryant Dunston. They are basically the same exact player, only Dunston is probably more athletic. And really, Udoh isn't at all any better than someone like Gustavo Ayon either. He just plays in a system and team that is tailor made to him in every possible way, while Ayon plays in a team that is very difficult for centers to play in.

Ayon is very similar, a little less athletic, a little more skilled. I won't include James Gist in the comparison, because even though Panathinaikos uses him as a center, he's really a power forward.

Then there is someone like Artsiom Parakhouski. He's not good on defense, while Udoh is very good on defense. But on offense, Parakhouski is miles better than Udoh is. The same is true for guys like Bojan Dublevic and Giorgi Shermadini.

I think it's fair to say Udoh is a top 5 big man, but I wouldn't go to clearly best big man in Europe level.
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Re: Best player in international ball? 

Post#29 » by UcanUwill » Sun May 21, 2017 5:54 pm

Mirotic12 wrote:
UcanUwill wrote:More well rounded? Yes. Better? Debatable.


Bourousis is definitely better overall, but he's getting too old now, so maybe you can say in his case, yes better all around, but not better. Felipe Reyes is too old now, so that takes him out of the discussion.

But there are some younger guys like Ante Tomic, Ante Zizic, or Johannes Voightmann in EuroLeague that are clearly better all around and overall. Even though I think Tomic is ridiculously soft mentally, I have to be objective, he's much better overall than someone like Udoh.

And I can't really see either how Udoh is any better at all than someone like Bryant Dunston. They are basically the same exact player, only Dunston is probably more athletic. And really, Udoh isn't at all any better than someone like Gustavo Ayon either. He just plays in a system and team that is tailor made to him in every possible way, while Ayon plays in a team that is very difficult for centers to play in.

Ayon is very similar, a little less athletic, a little more skilled. I won't include James Gist in the comparison, because even though Panathinaikos uses him as a center, he's really a power forward.

Then there is someone like Artsiom Parakhouski. He's not good on defense, while Udoh is very good on defense. But on offense, Parakhouski is miles better than Udoh is. The same is true for guys like Bojan Dublevic and Giorgi Shermadini.

I think it's fair to say Udoh is a top 5 big man, but I wouldn't go to clearly best big man in Europe level.



Tomic is way more skilled, but if I am looking to build a winning team, I take Udoh. Tomic is so hot and cold, mostly cold nowadays.
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Re: Best player in international ball? 

Post#30 » by mojo13 » Tue May 30, 2017 5:03 pm

Nice review of the EL Final Four from DraftExpress highlighting the players (all bigs) most capable of moving to the NBA - along with how the bigman role has evolved in the NBA (and EL).

Udoh, Khem Birch, Kyle Hines all profiled as NBA potential candidates.

http://www.draftexpress.com/article/what-did-we-learn-at-the-2017-euroleague-final-four-5954/
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Re: Best player in international ball? 

Post#31 » by Mirotic12 » Tue May 30, 2017 8:32 pm

mojo13 wrote:Nice review of the EL Final Four from DraftExpress highlighting the players (all bigs) most capable of moving to the NBA - along with how the bigman role has evolved in the NBA (and EL).

Udoh, Khem Birch, Kyle Hines all profiled as NBA potential candidates.

http://www.draftexpress.com/article/what-did-we-learn-at-the-2017-euroleague-final-four-5954/


To be honest, as usual, they are full of it. They watch 1-2 games all year and make these totally bold and all-knowing comments.

Hines is clearly rapidly declining and he's losing his athletic ability. He no longer can cover on switches and he's no longer getting that quick jump he used to have to be able to block shots. He was a much better player 3-5 years ago, when at that time the same site was claiming he couldn't play in the NBA.

Birch is very good at what he does, and is tasked with doing, but he's a really limited player. He does great at finishing dives to the basket from a creator like Spanoulis, and he does great at making energy plays in general just around the rim and paint area, offense or defense, and grabbing some rebounds.

But if you look at his overall game, and his individual game - he's extremely lacking. Once EuroLeague teams had a good scouting report on him, he basically did nothing for months on end. I would say, as far as NBA comparison goes, that he's like a less skilled and less talented version of Hakim Warrick. To be honest, without Spanoulis, he rarely contributes anything on offense, other than some put back rebounds or some garbage plays here and there. And on defense, he just can't guard guys that are athletic and 6-11 or bigger. He's a really good energy guy and athlete to have as an option off the bench, but how much do teams want that? How much do teams care for a guy that can give energy for 15 minutes? In Olympiacos, he clearly contributes a specific but very limited amount. He's certainly good enough to play in the NBA, but I see him being only in a very limited role, and just in a team tailor suited to him (like the case in Olympiacos).

Udoh is the only of those 3 that I could see NBA having any real interest in. And again, there are better all around centers than him in Europe. I mean someone like Voightmann....not even as far as I know ever once mentioned by DX as anything related to NBA......has way more talent and skills than Udoh does. Hell, even someone like Milutinov, who plays 13 minutes a game in Olympiacos, is a much more talented all around center than Udoh is. DX is pretty pathetic in their European basketball scouting and knowledge.
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Re: Best player in international ball? 

Post#32 » by mojo13 » Thu Jun 1, 2017 4:39 pm

I understand your concerns about the lack of exposure DraftExpress may have to European ball, but they do put the effort into scouting European youth as related to the NBA draft as well as the effort into analyzing which current Euro pros may translate best to the NBA. Just curious who you think does a better job of scouting European players as it relates to the NBA?

I do I think you are missing the point with what DX is saying. I don't see them proclaiming Udoh is the best bigman in all of Europe, but rather he might be the most likely to translate effectively into a role in the NBA. He was a #6 overall pick at one point, so it shouldn't be a surprise that he might finally be finding his NBA potential.

Claims about other European bigs being better "all around" players may be true, but that certainly doesn't mean they would be capable of finding a roll in the NBA. We have seen many times before what many might consider better "all around" players from Europe fail miserably in the NBA. Just because a player may be better "all around" they may not have one NBA level skill set or the wrong combination of skill sets to be effective in the NBA. Typically a good "all around" European pro just compares poorly to average NBA players with a well rounded game.

DraftExpress and other analysts we have read seem to be looking for players with a unique combination of skills that would translate to the NBA. Players with a few high level NBA skills sets that would make them useful to an NBA team. They may not have a full array of NBA level skills otherwise they would be in the NBA. The NBA game for bigmen is changing rapidly - I don't take their earlier dismissal of Kyle Hines as a fault. Years ago he had no chance at the NBA, but they are saying the skillset for bigman has changed to the point that Hines skill set could fill a role (yes - he is past his prime though). But I think they are using him to make a point for the crux of their article which is how the roles of bigmen has changed in the NBA.
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Re: Best player in international ball? 

Post#33 » by Mirotic12 » Wed Jun 7, 2017 8:36 pm

mojo13 wrote:I understand your concerns about the lack of exposure DraftExpress may have to European ball, but they do put the effort into scouting European youth as related to the NBA draft as well as the effort into analyzing which current Euro pros may translate best to the NBA. Just curious who you think does a better job of scouting European players as it relates to the NBA?

I do I think you are missing the point with what DX is saying. I don't see them proclaiming Udoh is the best bigman in all of Europe, but rather he might be the most likely to translate effectively into a role in the NBA. He was a #6 overall pick at one point, so it shouldn't be a surprise that he might finally be finding his NBA potential.

Claims about other European bigs being better "all around" players may be true, but that certainly doesn't mean they would be capable of finding a roll in the NBA. We have seen many times before what many might consider better "all around" players from Europe fail miserably in the NBA. Just because a player may be better "all around" they may not have one NBA level skill set or the wrong combination of skill sets to be effective in the NBA. Typically a good "all around" European pro just compares poorly to average NBA players with a well rounded game.

DraftExpress and other analysts we have read seem to be looking for players with a unique combination of skills that would translate to the NBA. Players with a few high level NBA skills sets that would make them useful to an NBA team. They may not have a full array of NBA level skills otherwise they would be in the NBA. The NBA game for bigmen is changing rapidly - I don't take their earlier dismissal of Kyle Hines as a fault. Years ago he had no chance at the NBA, but they are saying the skillset for bigman has changed to the point that Hines skill set could fill a role (yes - he is past his prime though). But I think they are using him to make a point for the crux of their article which is how the roles of bigmen has changed in the NBA.


But for this to be true, those would have to be the players which would fit the best in the NBA, or do the best in the NBA. And they are not. So it still does not explain how Draftexpress seems to know so little about European basketball, despite claiming to heavily scout it for many years.
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Re: Best player in international ball? 

Post#34 » by a-French-Fan » Fri Jun 30, 2017 7:13 am

Thomas "Big balls" Heurtel <3
With exceptionnal De Colo 2016 season we almost forget him when it's talking best players in Europe. Then for 2017, I did not understand the using of such a player by his coach.

But 2018 will be his season with Barcelona!!!

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