#Spacing - Steve Clifford Thread

Post #2001 » by **yosemiteben** » Fri Jun 5, 2015 12:16 am

So MKG is such a transcendent defensive talent that in 2013-14 he could only play 24 MPG, miss twenty games in the season, and yet still be solely responsible for us having a top five defense; all this despite him missing less time and playing more minutes the year before when we had the worst defense in the league.

That just does not add up to me.

Elden Payton · Post #2002 » by **Elden Payton** » Fri Jun 5, 2015 12:18 am

DY_nasty wrote:I honestly think people only downplay Cliff's inability to coach because they don't want to go through the headache, drama, and anxiety revolving around finding someone else.

I literally can't think of 3 things he does well on offense and without MKG for the last part of the season, it was painfully obvious to see that he's simply stupid. Random JT playing time, Max with 5 fouls playing center, Kemba/Mo revolving door, never adjusting to a floppy set EVER, months of never showing up prepared...

Then on top of that, he just wants to misuse guys brought in to do specific things. Cody's an athletic 4/5 - "learn to shoot 3s", Biyombo is an outstanding rim protector - "you will literally never share the court with Al Jefferson, and max is better DNP", PJ is a shooter - "I don't care that JT was the NBA's first big domestic violence case after that nightmare PR for the NFL, and I don't care that Gary Neal is blind. NO you can't borrow Vonleh's jacket and you'll never see a consistent minute as long as you play here"

its just dumb

everything is dumb

Clifford is vastly overrated as a Coach imo, he seems like he would be a top assistant (which he was) but as the lead guy he leaves a lot to be desired.

His rotations are just plain baffling, he can't coach O and his D is completely overrated.

Why exactly are we afraid of replacing him?

Elden Payton · Post #2003 » by **Elden Payton** » Fri Jun 5, 2015 12:19 am

yosemiteben wrote:So MKG is such a transcendent defensive talent that in 2013-14 he could only play 24 MPG, miss twenty games in the season, and yet still be solely responsible for us having a top five defense; all this despite him missing less time and playing more minutes the year before when we had the worst defense in the league.

That just does not add up to me.

That's exactly how it happened, so yes.

Post #2004 » by **yosemiteben** » Fri Jun 5, 2015 12:27 am

Sik Infant wrote:
yosemiteben wrote:So MKG is such a transcendent defensive talent that in 2013-14 he could only play 24 MPG, miss twenty games in the season, and yet still be solely responsible for us having a top five defense; all this despite him missing less time and playing more minutes the year before when we had the worst defense in the league.

That just does not add up to me.

That's exactly how it happened, so yes.

Our best season defensively as a franchise was when MKG played the least.

Just seems odd to say that the only contributor is a guy in the defense and not the guy that designed the defense, especially when our defense completely changed when the coach arrived but didn't change at all when MKG did.

Elden Payton · Post #2005 » by **Elden Payton** » Fri Jun 5, 2015 12:36 am

yosemiteben wrote:
Sik Infant wrote:
yosemiteben wrote:So MKG is such a transcendent defensive talent that in 2013-14 he could only play 24 MPG, miss twenty games in the season, and yet still be solely responsible for us having a top five defense; all this despite him missing less time and playing more minutes the year before when we had the worst defense in the league.

That just does not add up to me.

That's exactly how it happened, so yes.

Our best season defensively as a franchise was when MKG played the least.

Just seems odd to say that the only contributor is a guy in the defense and not the guy that designed the defense, especially when our defense completely changed when the coach arrived but didn't change at all when MKG did.

When MKG is healthy we are a top 5 defense, when he is injured we drop to 26th in the NBA.

This has happened two seasons in a row, why do you think that is?

LofJ · Post #2006 » by **LofJ** » Fri Jun 5, 2015 12:40 am

MKG wasn't an all-NBA level defender as a rookie, he is now though. I do give credit to Clifford for taking advantage of MKG and Zeller on defense though. He teaches good defensive fundamentals and our guys have definitely developed well on that side of the ball while he's been here. I think it's a credit to both him and to our players. But as much as he does good to great things defensively he's equally bad on the other side of the court. He just doesn't have the mentality to be creative on offense and that's the key attribute you have to possess to be successful there. He needs a top level offensive coach by his side badly. Good leaders recognize their weaknesses and correct them by hiring people who are strong in those areas. If he refuses to do that then he's not what we're looking for and it's best we move on.

DY_nasty · Post #2007 » by **DY_nasty** » Fri Jun 5, 2015 12:47 am

He doesn't teach good defense though. Outside of MKG's progress, and Zeller's general stagnation on the defensive end, everyone got worse this year. Two individuals with notable work ethic. Its entirely fair to say that those guys put in enough work to be the outliers as well.

How can anyone honestly say that Clifford teaches good defense when the overwhelming majority of the team took a step (or leap) backwards?

Elden Payton · Post #2008 » by **Elden Payton** » Fri Jun 5, 2015 12:53 am

DY_nasty wrote:He doesn't teach good defense though. Outside of MKG's progress, and Zeller's general stagnation on the defensive end, everyone got worse this year. Two individuals with notable work ethic. Its entirely fair to say that those guys put in enough work to be the outliers as well.

How can anyone honestly say that Clifford teaches good defense when the overwhelming majority of the team took a step (or leap) backwards?

It is my opinion that Clifford is getting credit for natural progression.

He's not a good defensive coach and he cannot even recognise our best defensive unit.

He is also renowned for taking our best defender out in the fourth, how many games has this cost us?

How many games did he refuse to play our best rim protector?

How many times did he play Max to the detriment of the team?

Clifford is borderline clueless imo.

DY_nasty · Post #2009 » by **DY_nasty** » Fri Jun 5, 2015 1:00 am

Sik Infant wrote:
DY_nasty wrote:He doesn't teach good defense though. Outside of MKG's progress, and Zeller's general stagnation on the defensive end, everyone got worse this year. Two individuals with notable work ethic. Its entirely fair to say that those guys put in enough work to be the outliers as well.

How can anyone honestly say that Clifford teaches good defense when the overwhelming majority of the team took a step (or leap) backwards?

It is my opinion that Clifford is getting credit for natural progression.

He's not a good defensive coach and he cannot even recognise our best defensive unit.

He is also renowned for taking our best defender out in the fourth, how many games has this cost us?

How many games did he refuse to play our best rim protector?

How many times did he play Max to the detriment of the team?

Clifford is borderline clueless imo.

This is huge. Clifford is supposed to be a defensive guy but he's benched MKG in the fourth time and time again like he's some kind of liability while every basic, advanced metric, and eye test clearly states the opposite. Playing Maxiel, ever, at center at that is just hard to comprehend and accept when he's got a top 10 prospect and one of the league's best rim protectors/rebounders nailed to the pine behind him.

He's bad. Like... why even pretend otherwise? lol. People just need to be straight up and say that they don't want to hunt another head coach.

And offense? An NBA coach in 2015 that doesn't understand the importance of corner 3s is not qualified for the position. Even our best and most high volume shooters didn't take nearly enough 3s from the corner. Its not even about hitting them. Its about making the defense at least pay attention to the entire floor. If Quinn Snyder, Fisher, Vaughn, Monty, and Hollins can get in the face of a player and force them to take a shot, then Cliff can at least convince Kemba to take his ill-advised 3s from a better spot once in a while.

Post #2010 » by **yosemiteben** » Fri Jun 5, 2015 1:08 am

MKG did not develop enough in one offseason to take us from literally worst in the league to elite on defense. Dunlap was a terrible defensive coach, and Cliff is not. It's really that simple IMO.

Elden Payton · Post #2011 » by **Elden Payton** » Fri Jun 5, 2015 1:09 am

DY_nasty wrote:
Sik Infant wrote:
DY_nasty wrote:He doesn't teach good defense though. Outside of MKG's progress, and Zeller's general stagnation on the defensive end, everyone got worse this year. Two individuals with notable work ethic. Its entirely fair to say that those guys put in enough work to be the outliers as well.

How can anyone honestly say that Clifford teaches good defense when the overwhelming majority of the team took a step (or leap) backwards?

It is my opinion that Clifford is getting credit for natural progression.

He's not a good defensive coach and he cannot even recognise our best defensive unit.

He is also renowned for taking our best defender out in the fourth, how many games has this cost us?

How many games did he refuse to play our best rim protector?

How many times did he play Max to the detriment of the team?

Clifford is borderline clueless imo.

This is huge. Clifford is supposed to be a defensive guy but he's benched MKG in the fourth time and time again like he's some kind of liability while every basic, advanced metric, and eye test clearly states the opposite. Playing Maxiel, ever, at center at that is just hard to comprehend and accept when he's got a top 10 prospect and one of the league's best rim protectors/rebounders nailed to the pine behind him.

He's bad. Like... why even pretend otherwise? lol. People just need to be straight up and say that they don't want to hunt another head coach.

And offense? An NBA coach in 2015 that doesn't understand the importance of corner 3s is not qualified for the position. Even our best and most high volume shooters didn't take nearly enough 3s from the corner. Its not even about hitting them. Its about making the defense at least pay attention to the entire floor. If Quinn Snyder, Fisher, Vaughn, Monty, and Hollins can get in the face of a player and force them to take a shot, then Cliff can at least convince Kemba to take his ill-advised 3s from a better spot once in a while.

Personally I feel that our existence as a franchise has been such a failure, that our fans are so traumatised and have such a fear of failure, that we refuse to go forwards for fear of going backwards.

Elden Payton · Post #2012 » by **Elden Payton** » Fri Jun 5, 2015 1:15 am

yosemiteben wrote:MKG did not develop enough in one offseason to take us from literally worst in the league to elite on defense. Dunlap was a terrible defensive coach, and Cliff is not. It's really that simple IMO.

MKG was renowned for his D before ever stepping foot on an NBA court.

You're entitled to your opinion, as am I, it wouldn't mean either of us are right or either of us are wrong.

However..in this case the numbers and the eye test both tell us the same thing..Clifford is vastly overrated and MKG is vastly underrated.

LofJ · Post #2013 » by **LofJ** » Fri Jun 5, 2015 1:21 am

I'm pretty sure Clifford won't be with us next season. So I'll go ahead and nominate who I want us to hire: Tommy Amaker

http://www.sbnation.com/longform/2014/3/6/5474320/harvard-basketball-tommy-amaker-profile-ncaa-tournament-2014

Post #2014 » by **JDR720** » Fri Jun 5, 2015 1:23 am

continue here:

viewtopic.php?f=53&t=1391079#start_here