Juke Skywalker - The Kemba Walker Thread II

[Elden Payton]

I just disagree I guess. The team didn't look any worse, and actually arguably better, when Al didn't play. Our defensive scheme and talent at other positions helps mitigate his deficiencies but our defense is still worse than what it could be with someone else at C. His complete inability to move and help and weak rim protections puts a lot more pressure on all our other defenders.

And he still led us to the playoffs!

You're allowed to believe Kemba is our best player, that is your opinion and you're entitled to it.

I can say Kemba led us to the playoffs. It isn't just a belief. There is evidence to back up my opinion. I'm not saying he is obviously our best player and it is a foregone conclusion or anything, but I think the case for Kemba is just as good if not better.

You can say it, but it doesn't make it true!

What is this evidence?

Al was all-NBA last season, he was our leader and best player imo.

Kemba is my second favourite player btw, I'm more a fan of him than Al.

[Braggins]

And he still led us to the playoffs!

You're allowed to believe Kemba is our best player, that is your opinion and you're entitled to it.

I can say Kemba led us to the playoffs. It isn't just a belief. There is evidence to back up my opinion. I'm not saying he is obviously our best player and it is a foregone conclusion or anything, but I think the case for Kemba is just as good if not better.

You can say it, but it doesn't make it true!

What is this evidence?

Al was all-NBA last season, he was our leader and best player imo.

Kemba is my second favourite player btw, I'm more a fan of him than Al.

You saying it also doesn't make it true. The difference in the drop off when Kemba was out of the game compared to when Al was out of the game. The difference in our teams performance when Al didn't play was almost non-existent and we arguably were better in those games. Just seeing the obvious negative impact he had on our defense and the fact that we didn't have any trouble scoring in games Al didn't play. Al has always put up big scoring and rebounding numbers and its never really translated to anything. It is hard to really compare the two because of how different their games are but Kemba (and even MKG) seemed more important to our success than Al did to me.

[Elden Payton]

I can say Kemba led us to the playoffs. It isn't just a belief. There is evidence to back up my opinion. I'm not saying he is obviously our best player and it is a foregone conclusion or anything, but I think the case for Kemba is just as good if not better.

You can say it, but it doesn't make it true!

What is this evidence?

Al was all-NBA last season, he was our leader and best player imo.

Kemba is my second favourite player btw, I'm more a fan of him than Al.

You saying it also doesn't make it true. The difference in the drop off when Kemba was out of the game compared to when Al was out of the game. The difference in our teams performance when Al didn't play was almost non-existent and we arguably were better in those games. Just seeing the obvious negative impact he had on our defense and the fact that we didn't have any trouble scoring in games Al didn't play. Al has always put up big scoring and rebounding numbers and its never really translated to anything. It is hard to really compare the two because of how different their games are but Kemba (and even MKG) seemed more important to our success than Al did to me.

I never claimed that because I said it, it makes it true!

this debate was just going on in another thread.

Kemba was backed up by Sessions and Pargo and then Ridnour and Pargo.

Al was backed up by Biyombo who was statistically the best rim protector in the NBA among qualified players.

Al's win shares are 15.4 and Kemba's are 7.6, this is a pretty good indicator imo.

All-NBA is important too imo, if you take the 400+ players in the NBA and made 3 teams of 5, Al was/would be in the third team, based on last season.

I'm not sure Kemba would make any of them if there were 20 all-NBA teams, he's a borderline top 15-20 PG and that is being generous.

[Braggins]

You can say it, but it doesn't make it true!

What is this evidence?

Al was all-NBA last season, he was our leader and best player imo.

Kemba is my second favourite player btw, I'm more a fan of him than Al.

You saying it also doesn't make it true. The difference in the drop off when Kemba was out of the game compared to when Al was out of the game. The difference in our teams performance when Al didn't play was almost non-existent and we arguably were better in those games. Just seeing the obvious negative impact he had on our defense and the fact that we didn't have any trouble scoring in games Al didn't play. Al has always put up big scoring and rebounding numbers and its never really translated to anything. It is hard to really compare the two because of how different their games are but Kemba (and even MKG) seemed more important to our success than Al did to me.

I never claimed that because I said it, it makes it true!

this debate was just going on in another thread.

Kemba was backed up by Sessions and Pargo and then Ridnour and Pargo.

Al was backed up by Biyombo who was statistically the best rim protector in the NBA among qualified players.

Al's win shares are 15.4 and Kemba's are 7.6, this is a pretty good indicator imo.

All-NBA is important too imo, if you take the 400+ players in the NBA and made 3 teams of 5, Al was/would be in the third team, based on last season.

I'm not sure Kemba would make any of them if there were 20 all-NBA teams, he's a borderline top 15-20 PG and that is being generous.

The drop off from Al to Biyombo was still almost negligible. Biyombo is pretty much the inverse of Al as far as their games go but Biyombo doesn't put up flashy numbers. A guy that does nothing but play defense and rebound isn't much different than a guy that does nothing but score and rebound in terms of overall effect but Biyombo is generally considered trash and Al is perceived as a franchise cornerstone. Perception aside, the team wasn't really any worse with Biyombo instead of Al. I don't put much stock at all into Al's all-nba selection. He was not the third best center in the league by any standard and his selection was more a lifetime achievement award. If you made up three teams of 5 of the best players and not the best players whose team performed well or over expectations Al wouldn't make any of them.

[Elden Payton]

You saying it also doesn't make it true. The difference in the drop off when Kemba was out of the game compared to when Al was out of the game. The difference in our teams performance when Al didn't play was almost non-existent and we arguably were better in those games. Just seeing the obvious negative impact he had on our defense and the fact that we didn't have any trouble scoring in games Al didn't play. Al has always put up big scoring and rebounding numbers and its never really translated to anything. It is hard to really compare the two because of how different their games are but Kemba (and even MKG) seemed more important to our success than Al did to me.

I never claimed that because I said it, it makes it true!

this debate was just going on in another thread.

Kemba was backed up by Sessions and Pargo and then Ridnour and Pargo.

Al was backed up by Biyombo who was statistically the best rim protector in the NBA among qualified players.

Al's win shares are 15.4 and Kemba's are 7.6, this is a pretty good indicator imo.

All-NBA is important too imo, if you take the 400+ players in the NBA and made 3 teams of 5, Al was/would be in the third team, based on last season.

I'm not sure Kemba would make any of them if there were 20 all-NBA teams, he's a borderline top 15-20 PG and that is being generous.

The drop off from Al to Biyombo was still almost negligible. Biyombo is pretty much the inverse of Al as far as their games go but Biyombo doesn't put up flashy numbers. A guy that does nothing but play defense and rebound isn't much different than a guy that does nothing but score and rebound in terms of overall effect but Biyombo is generally considered trash and Al is perceived as a franchise cornerstone. Perception aside, the team wasn't really any worse with Biyombo instead of Al. I don't put much stock at all into Al's all-nba selection. He was not the third best center in the league by any standard and his selection was more a lifetime achievement award.

You're entitled to your opinion, but this post does not back up your stance on why Kemba and not Al, lead us to the playoffs.

It's more of an opinion piece.

Biyombo coming into the game improved our defense tremendously, this is, in part why the dropoff between him and Al can seem negligible.

The NBA does not hand out lifetime achievement awards to players like Al Jefferson, never have and never will.

Al was named third team all-NBA because he lead the Charlotte Bobcats to the playoffs, which is a massive achievement for a franchise with our history.

Al had over twice the win shares of Kemba, and going out on a limb, I'd say he's the guy that lead us to the postseason.

[Braggins]

I never claimed that because I said it, it makes it true!

this debate was just going on in another thread.

Kemba was backed up by Sessions and Pargo and then Ridnour and Pargo.

Al was backed up by Biyombo who was statistically the best rim protector in the NBA among qualified players.

Al's win shares are 15.4 and Kemba's are 7.6, this is a pretty good indicator imo.

All-NBA is important too imo, if you take the 400+ players in the NBA and made 3 teams of 5, Al was/would be in the third team, based on last season.

I'm not sure Kemba would make any of them if there were 20 all-NBA teams, he's a borderline top 15-20 PG and that is being generous.

The drop off from Al to Biyombo was still almost negligible. Biyombo is pretty much the inverse of Al as far as their games go but Biyombo doesn't put up flashy numbers. A guy that does nothing but play defense and rebound isn't much different than a guy that does nothing but score and rebound in terms of overall effect but Biyombo is generally considered trash and Al is perceived as a franchise cornerstone. Perception aside, the team wasn't really any worse with Biyombo instead of Al. I don't put much stock at all into Al's all-nba selection. He was not the third best center in the league by any standard and his selection was more a lifetime achievement award.

You're entitled to your opinion, but this post does not back up your stance on why Kemba and not Al, lead us to the playoffs.

It's more of an opinion piece.

Biyombo coming into the game improved our defense tremendously, this is, in part why the dropoff between him and Al can seem negligible.

The NBA does not hand out lifetime achievement awards to players like Al Jefferson, never have and never will.

Al was named third team all-NBA because he lead the Charlotte Bobcats to the playoffs, which is a massive achievement for a franchise with our history.

Al had over twice the win shares of Kemba, and going out on a limb, I'd say he's the guy that lead us to the postseason.

It wasn't meant to back up that stance. I didn't even mean to say that Kemba necessarily led us to the playoffs. I was just making the point that saying Al led us to the playoffs doesn't mean he did. I think they were both important pieces and that Kemba was slightly more important. I honestly think Clifford might have been the biggest factor even though I did have some problems with him last year. The reason our defense improved tremendously is because Al is a terrible defensive player. You can't ignore that. He gives up on defense most of what he brings on offense. Even when we had Sessions when Kemba came out we were worse in every area because Kemba is a two way player. You are entitled to your opinion as well. Say what you want about Al's all-nba selection but he was not and never has been the third best center in the league.

[Elden Payton]

The drop off from Al to Biyombo was still almost negligible. Biyombo is pretty much the inverse of Al as far as their games go but Biyombo doesn't put up flashy numbers. A guy that does nothing but play defense and rebound isn't much different than a guy that does nothing but score and rebound in terms of overall effect but Biyombo is generally considered trash and Al is perceived as a franchise cornerstone. Perception aside, the team wasn't really any worse with Biyombo instead of Al. I don't put much stock at all into Al's all-nba selection. He was not the third best center in the league by any standard and his selection was more a lifetime achievement award.

You're entitled to your opinion, but this post does not back up your stance on why Kemba and not Al, lead us to the playoffs.

It's more of an opinion piece.

Biyombo coming into the game improved our defense tremendously, this is, in part why the dropoff between him and Al can seem negligible.

The NBA does not hand out lifetime achievement awards to players like Al Jefferson, never have and never will.

Al was named third team all-NBA because he lead the Charlotte Bobcats to the playoffs, which is a massive achievement for a franchise with our history.

Al had over twice the win shares of Kemba, and going out on a limb, I'd say he's the guy that lead us to the postseason.

It wasn't meant to back up that stance. I didn't even mean to say that Kemba necessarily led us to the playoffs. I was just making the point that saying Al led us to the playoffs doesn't mean he did. I think they were both important pieces and that Kemba was slightly more important. I honestly think Clifford might have been the biggest factor even though I did have some problems with him last year. The reason our defense improved tremendously is because Al is a terrible defensive player. You can't ignore that. He gives up on defense most of what he brings on offense. Even when we had Sessions when Kemba came out we were worse in every area because Kemba is a two way player. You are entitled to your opinion as well. Say what you want about Al's all-nba selection but he was not and never has been the third best center in the league.

you're entitled to that opinion!

I'm not claiming that he's the third best 5 in the league, I'm stating that he was third team all-NBA.

[Braggins]

You're entitled to your opinion, but this post does not back up your stance on why Kemba and not Al, lead us to the playoffs.

It's more of an opinion piece.

Biyombo coming into the game improved our defense tremendously, this is, in part why the dropoff between him and Al can seem negligible.

The NBA does not hand out lifetime achievement awards to players like Al Jefferson, never have and never will.

Al was named third team all-NBA because he lead the Charlotte Bobcats to the playoffs, which is a massive achievement for a franchise with our history.

Al had over twice the win shares of Kemba, and going out on a limb, I'd say he's the guy that lead us to the postseason.

It wasn't meant to back up that stance. I didn't even mean to say that Kemba necessarily led us to the playoffs. I was just making the point that saying Al led us to the playoffs doesn't mean he did. I think they were both important pieces and that Kemba was slightly more important. I honestly think Clifford might have been the biggest factor even though I did have some problems with him last year. The reason our defense improved tremendously is because Al is a terrible defensive player. You can't ignore that. He gives up on defense most of what he brings on offense. Even when we had Sessions when Kemba came out we were worse in every area because Kemba is a two way player. You are entitled to your opinion as well. Say what you want about Al's all-nba selection but he was not and never has been the third best center in the league.

you're entitled to that opinion!

I'm not claiming that he's the third best 5 in the league, I'm stating that he was third team all-NBA.

He was and we seem to be in agreement that it had a lot to do with team performance, but I am saying that he wasn't as integral to our teams performance as many people believe.

[Elden Payton]

It wasn't meant to back up that stance. I didn't even mean to say that Kemba necessarily led us to the playoffs. I was just making the point that saying Al led us to the playoffs doesn't mean he did. I think they were both important pieces and that Kemba was slightly more important. I honestly think Clifford might have been the biggest factor even though I did have some problems with him last year. The reason our defense improved tremendously is because Al is a terrible defensive player. You can't ignore that. He gives up on defense most of what he brings on offense. Even when we had Sessions when Kemba came out we were worse in every area because Kemba is a two way player. You are entitled to your opinion as well. Say what you want about Al's all-nba selection but he was not and never has been the third best center in the league.

you're entitled to that opinion!

I'm not claiming that he's the third best 5 in the league, I'm stating that he was third team all-NBA.

He was and we seem to be in agreement that it had a lot to do with team performance, but I am saying that he wasn't as integral to our teams performance as many people believe.

We'd have to disagree in regards to how important he was then!

I can understand why you're saying what you're saying though.

[Robot Rock]

I stand by my point that MKG and Biyombo are overrated on this board and Kemba and Al are hideously underrated. Hendo is rated.

[HornetJail]

I stand by my point that MKG and Biyombo are overrated on this board and Kemba and Al are hideously underrated. Hendo is rated.

I think everyone but BrotherDave realizes that Al is by far the best player the Bobcats ever had. And everyone realizes Kemba's and Al's importance to the team. without either of them, we'd be worse than Boston. Not bad enough to get Wiggins/Exum/Embiid/Parker, but still very bad.

Why are our only two defenders overrated?

[Braggins]

you're entitled to that opinion!

I'm not claiming that he's the third best 5 in the league, I'm stating that he was third team all-NBA.

He was and we seem to be in agreement that it had a lot to do with team performance, but I am saying that he wasn't as integral to our teams performance as many people believe.

We'd have to disagree in regards to how important he was then!

I can understand why you're saying what you're saying though.

Yeah, agreeing to disagree is fine. We both like both players and the Hornets so its all good.

[Elden Payton]

He was and we seem to be in agreement that it had a lot to do with team performance, but I am saying that he wasn't as integral to our teams performance as many people believe.

We'd have to disagree in regards to how important he was then!

I can understand why you're saying what you're saying though.

Yeah, agreeing to disagree is fine. We both like both players and the Hornets so its all good.

[catch20two]

Kemba deserve 12M and if MKG get his O together he'll be worth 10M. Biz should get like 5M for now.

[JDR720]

Its not really about how much they deserve its about how much they're worth

[catch20two]

Its not really about how much they deserve its about how much they're worth

Kemba is worth 12M to this team for sure. MKG is prolly only worth 5M right now based on the way Cliff use him but his extension isn't until next year and I expect him to make great strides on O this year. Biz is currently worth 5M to me as a elite rim protector at such a young age.

[Liver_Pooty]

Its not really about how much they deserve its about how much they're worth

Kemba is worth 12M to this team for sure. MKG is prolly only worth 5M right now based on the way Cliff use him but his extension isn't until next year and I expect him to make great strides on O this year. Biz is currently worth 5M to me as a elite rim protector at such a young age.

Maybe if he improves his shooting this upcoming season he will be, but right now based on the market for other point guards he isn't.

[catch20two]

Its not really about how much they deserve its about how much they're worth

Kemba is worth 12M to this team for sure. MKG is prolly only worth 5M right now based on the way Cliff use him but his extension isn't until next year and I expect him to make great strides on O this year. Biz is currently worth 5M to me as a elite rim protector at such a young age.

Maybe if he improves his shooting this upcoming season he will be, but right now based on the market for other point guards he isn't.

He will improve his shooting this upcoming season. I have as much faith in him as you have in Zeller.

[Liver_Pooty]

Kemba is worth 12M to this team for sure. MKG is prolly only worth 5M right now based on the way Cliff use him but his extension isn't until next year and I expect him to make great strides on O this year. Biz is currently worth 5M to me as a elite rim protector at such a young age.

Maybe if he improves his shooting this upcoming season he will be, but right now based on the market for other point guards he isn't.

He will improve his shooting this upcoming season. I have as much faith in him as you have in Zeller.

I certainly hope he does. Its the only thing keeping him from being a potential all star.

[HornetJail]

Kemba and Biz are both eligible for extensions this summer. I think we HAVE to do everything in our power to get Kemba to sign an extension before the season starts, even if it seems like a bit of an overpay right now, because the market is ridiculous, and Kemba being a rising star PG is probably going to receive a Lowry deal if not more, if he even shows a slight improvement. We also run the risk of him breaking out completely and having to match max deals.

I would hope Biz signs a cheap, but very long extension- like a 5/20 or 5/25 extension, so he'll be a defensive stud center at $4-5M a year well into the new CBA. Thinking four to five years in the future, deals signed in this CBA are going to likely be bargain contracts in the next CBA a couple years from now. I'd like to see all of our "keepers" on this team locked up to long contracts and the players not necessarily in our future to expire at the same time as the huge spike in the salary cap happens. There's a good reason why we signed Williams, Roberts, and Henderson to expire at exactly the same time.