Barbeque Chicken: The Cody Zeller Thread - Pt 2

[Vanderbilt_Grad]

Just MHO, but Cody is doing exactly what Cliff wants in terms of rebounds. His priority is boxing his man out to prevent an offensive rebound. Grabbing the ball is his 2nd priority. This is why the guards have above average rebound numbers and some of our bigs have below average. Judging Cody by rebounds is largely pointless as a result.

[Mystical Apples]

2015-16 Playoff wins
Zeller: 3
Drummond, Jordan, Cousins: 2

Drummond and Cousins career playoff wins: 0

Number of years Cousins has won 34 games: 0

[yosemiteben]

To take this thread a more interesting direction, I did find it really interesting that Cliff said that what Cody needs to work on the most this offseason is his jumpshot. I don't disagree that that is the most obvious hole in his game so it is kind of an obvious statement, but I do wonder if in Cliff's mind Cody can still be a prototypical stretch PF if he gets his range game figured out or if Cliff has shifted to viewing Cody as a C. Cho said in his post-season presser that they expect Cody to be the starting C next offseason, but I put very little weight in that statement.

Cody could spend a lot of time this summer trying to add muscle and mass to better handle life in the paint, and also working on his post work to become a more legit ISO post option, but obviously that's not what Cliff sees as most important for him. Given Cliff's determination to build a 4 out 1 in offense, I do wonder if saying Cody needs to be a perimeter threat suggests that he thinks Cody needs to be able to play alongside a big with a more traditional inside game.

To state the obvious, if MKG and Cody could become consistent perimeter threats, that would be such a huge boost to this franchise.

[fatlever]

Last summer Cody didnt really have a chance to work on that jumper. He was coming off shoulder surgery that kept him from shooting until mid-summer.

This summer, he really has no excuses to not come back as an improved shooter.

To play 4 out, either 1 of MKG/Cody has to become a reliable 3pt shooter, or else our projected starting unit is not 4 out.

[yosemiteben]

Fair point, but we're also definitely not playing 1 in with Cody as our starting C.

Part of my thinking about this was spurred by some of MA's ideas in the offseason thread about us letting Marv walk and signing a big ticket FA C this summer and also a backup C (we would trade Hawes to facilitate the big ticket C). If we truly don't see Cody as a C and/or really want to play 4 out 1 in and get some traditional paint touches from our bigs, maybe long term our goal still is to shift Cody to PF and phase out Marv? I personally felt like this season cemented Cody's increased value as a C over a PF, or at least as a guy that brings a lot of value in PNR actions with a cleared out paint, but I do wonder how committed our coaching staff and FO are to using Cody as a C.

[JMAC3]

This upcoming season will be a big year for Zeller, as it will be his final year on his rookie contract. The biggest reason for the split reviews on Zeller are he has not shown he can be consistent, this leads to mixed reviews and frustration.

Also, he is not an elite rebounder, or maybe not an elite player in any one statistic, but that does not make him a flawed player. He is a well rounded center prospect, who has yet to have an established role on a good team. This year was the closest to a consistent role he had, but even then his minutes were sporadic, he was in and out of the lineup and was considered a fill in at center for a good portion of the year. With an off-season to prepare for center both physically and mentally, he should be a more reliable option.

Sure, would we rather have Deandre Jordan or Drummond or Cousins? Yes, but who wouldn't. If we could go get them instead of Zeller without giving away the farm we would. As many of posters have noted before, every player has flaws and has things they need to improve. Jordan has no offense outside of 3 feet, can't create shots for himself or others, and is horrible from the free throw line. Drummond has almost all the same issues, but yes they can dunk, grab rebounds, and block shots. Cousins is not a good a shot blocker as a Center and he has never had a winning season in the NBA- is that related?

Zeller has an improving mid-rang game, can attack opposing centers off the dribble, and is a better passer than both Jordan and Drummond. Also, he is way better free throw shooter and the youngest of the group.... see you can nitpick anyone.

Even if you compare him to Alex Len, drafted one spot after Zeller, it's too early to say who will be better. Len was given the keyes to the Phoenix offense with Devin Booker to end the season and he averaged 31 mpg basically averaging 10/10, but he did so on 36% shooting from the field as a starting center. Also, he only averaged 0.5 blocks per game, so he isn't a defensive standout.

So is Cody Zeller the next Patrick Ewing or have the upside of Karl-Anthony Towns? NO, but that does not mean he is worthless player or a career backup. Should we start to look for a potential alternative? Sure, we would be silly to not want to improve our team. However, there is a chance Zeller develops into a player better than all of us believe and its too early to tell.

[JMAC3]

Last summer Cody didnt really have a chance to work on that jumper. He was coming off shoulder surgery that kept him from shooting until mid-summer.

This summer, he really has no excuses to not come back as an improved shooter.

To play 4 out, either 1 of MKG/Cody has to become a reliable 3pt shooter, or else our projected starting unit is not 4 out.

4 out is pretty much the standard of the NBA right now, however you see teams already attempting a 5 out offense where everybody is a threat to shoot the three. This leaves a ton of room in the middle of the court for drives, pnr, and multiple screens and backcuts.

Hawks are able to do this with Horford and Millsap and is a major reason they are so tough to guard. Warriors death lineup is very similar as everyone is able to shoot the three. Cavs are doing it with Channing Frye playing center. Heat with Bosh.Celtics do this with Sullinger. Will not be long before Kings and Cousins, Wolves and Towns, Pelicans and Davis, and Nuggets with Jokic.

I think Zeller adding a three will only make him a more dangerous 5 and Frank will start to play some 5 minutes as well. The NBA is on a move towards the elimination of the PF position, teams are playing 4 wings and 1 big a ton. This is a major reason I am not in love with idea of overpaying Marvin.

Small ball/Spacing with these 5?
Kemba
Lin
Batum
MKG
Frank

[yosemiteben]

Talking about Cody's shooting reminded me of this:

[youtube]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=abPOpSJ0ovQ[/youtube]

That stroke is fine, I think it's all mental with him.

[JDR720]

its probably both (form/mental)

he as never been a shooter and the team is trying to make him into one. he is a center, he doesn't need to shoot threes.

[Vanderbilt_Grad]

Talking about Cody's shooting reminded me of this:

[youtube]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=abPOpSJ0ovQ[/youtube]

That stroke is fine, I think it's all mental with him.

He has range too, but I think it's more than mental. I think that he requires a good pass in rhythm (lots of shooters are like that - this may require plays being run for him) and that his shot is a bit easy to defend in the NBA. Not sure if the latter is mental (overthinking), short arms, or speed.

[Joest2003]

For the record I NEVER said he was a bad player I just feel if we had a more dominant center and Cody off the bench we would be a MUCH better team.

[catch20two]

For the record I NEVER said he was a bad player I just feel if we had a more dominant center and Cody off the bench we would be a MUCH better team.

He's definitely much more suitable as a backup than a starter on a team if that team want to be a real contender. The fact that he's undersized to a extent hurts whenever your team run up against the GSW's, SAS, OKC's, CLE's, TOR's and MIA's because he'll get pushed around and the perimeter players have to extend themselves too much to help him in the paint. Not to mention he doesn't finish very well around the rim.

[yosemiteben]

For the record I NEVER said he was a bad player...

You said a 7 footer with a 40" vertical, who posted elite anthropometric stats at the combine, and who is clearly the fastest big on the floor in almost all of our games was not athletic enough. We got hung up on that because that is a dumb statement.

Then you compared him to guys who at the same age were outperformed by Cody, and used that as evidence to say he can't play at the level of those same players.

I just feel if we had a more dominant center and Cody off the bench we would be a MUCH better team.

Notice how no one criticized you for that statement. That's a perfectly reasonable take.

There are lots of reasonable critiques of his game. You have done a poor job of making them, and that is why you have been getting blasted on here. Take a survey of folks that have posted in this thread and I think a strong majority would prefer to upgrade our C spot. There is no "Zeller cult."

[rallydurham]

I like Zeller a lot at center and i was pretty down on him before this year.

If he wants to be a pf he absolutely has to learn to shoot. If he wants to last a long time in this league he will need to learn to shoot. I don't think he will hold up well as a center especially as injuries mount and his athleticism fades.

But that's years from now. In the meantime it would give us more flexibility if he could shoot and realistically that's the only part of his game that can improve drastically

He had a breakout year though. Hes good in the pick n roll and at defending it. Pretty valuable.


You can't really say he's a bad rebounder then compare him to drummond.

That's like saying Rodney Hood is a bad shooter because he's not Curry

[Joest2003]

For the record I NEVER said he was a bad player...

You said a 7 footer with a 40" vertical, who posted elite anthropometric stats at the combine, and who is clearly the fastest big on the floor in almost all of our games was not athletic enough. We got hung up on that because that is a dumb statement.

Then you compared him to guys who at the same age were outperformed by Cody, and used that as evidence to say he can't play at the level of those same players.

I just feel if we had a more dominant center and Cody off the bench we would be a MUCH better team.

Notice how no one criticized you for that statement. That's a perfectly reasonable take.

There are lots of reasonable critiques of his game. You have done a poor job of making them, and that is why you have been getting blasted on here. Take a survey of folks that have posted in this thread and I think a strong majority would prefer to upgrade our C spot. There is no "Zeller cult."

7 foot starting center

63rd in rebounds game
46th in blocks per game
8 CAREER double doubles. (6 foot 9 Julius Randle has 34 in 1 season)

Athletic is literally one of the last things I would call him. One of the least productive centers in the league is actually more of a accurate statement but we can keep living in denial and acting like 8.7 ppg and 6.2 rpg are acceptable for a 7 foot starting center.

[Flip Murray]

For the record I NEVER said he was a bad player...

You said a 7 footer with a 40" vertical, who posted elite anthropometric stats at the combine, and who is clearly the fastest big on the floor in almost all of our games was not athletic enough. We got hung up on that because that is a dumb statement.

Then you compared him to guys who at the same age were outperformed by Cody, and used that as evidence to say he can't play at the level of those same players.

I just feel if we had a more dominant center and Cody off the bench we would be a MUCH better team.

Notice how no one criticized you for that statement. That's a perfectly reasonable take.

There are lots of reasonable critiques of his game. You have done a poor job of making them, and that is why you have been getting blasted on here. Take a survey of folks that have posted in this thread and I think a strong majority would prefer to upgrade our C spot. There is no "Zeller cult."

7 foot starting center

63rd in rebounds game
46th in blocks per game
8 CAREER double doubles. (6 foot 9 Julius Randle has 34 in 1 season)

Athletic is literally one of the last things I would call him. One of the least productive centers in the league is actually more of a accurate statement but we can keep living in denial and acting like 8.7 ppg and 6.2 rpg are acceptable for a 7 foot starting center.

I just think your definition of athletic is incorrect. How many rebounds and blocks would Usain Bolt get? How many points would he score? I would argue that MLS has some of the best athletes in soccer, doesn't mean they're good at the sport.

Steven Adams is 7 feet tall and only averaged 8 points and 6.7 rebounds on literally the same minutes as Zeller. Ever watch that guy play? If you think he's not athletic you're (Please Use More Appropriate Word)

and i'm not in a "Zeller Cult" just because I think he's athletic and a better basketball player than some bozo who played at a junior college that won 6 games over the last 3 seasons. I've had my criticisms of Zeller

[Braggins]

I just feel if we had a more dominant center and Cody off the bench we would be a MUCH better team.

Notice how no one criticized you for that statement. That's a perfectly reasonable take.

There are lots of reasonable critiques of his game. You have done a poor job of making them, and that is why you have been getting blasted on here. Take a survey of folks that have posted in this thread and I think a strong majority would prefer to upgrade our C spot. There is no "Zeller cult."

Yeah, I don't get where he is coming from at all. I don't think Zeller's biggest fans would say he is anything more than slightly above average and the general consensus seems to be that he is ok, but we could certainly do better.

Apparently not thinking Zeller is the worst thing to ever happen to basketball, or thinking he is good enough to make KSwiss's **** college team, is grounds for being a cultist.

[Flip Murray]

paging amcoolio can we get some Zeller lovedomes?

[Joest2003]

You said a 7 footer with a 40" vertical, who posted elite anthropometric stats at the combine, and who is clearly the fastest big on the floor in almost all of our games was not athletic enough. We got hung up on that because that is a dumb statement.

Then you compared him to guys who at the same age were outperformed by Cody, and used that as evidence to say he can't play at the level of those same players.


Notice how no one criticized you for that statement. That's a perfectly reasonable take.

There are lots of reasonable critiques of his game. You have done a poor job of making them, and that is why you have been getting blasted on here. Take a survey of folks that have posted in this thread and I think a strong majority would prefer to upgrade our C spot. There is no "Zeller cult."

7 foot starting center

63rd in rebounds game
46th in blocks per game
8 CAREER double doubles. (6 foot 9 Julius Randle has 34 in 1 season)

Athletic is literally one of the last things I would call him. One of the least productive centers in the league is actually more of a accurate statement but we can keep living in denial and acting like 8.7 ppg and 6.2 rpg are acceptable for a 7 foot starting center.

I just think your definition of athletic is incorrect. How many rebounds and blocks would Usain Bolt get? How many points would he score? I would argue that MLS has some of the best athletes in soccer, doesn't mean they're good at the sport.

Steven Adams is 7 feet tall and only averaged 8 points and 6.7 rebounds on literally the same minutes as Zeller. Ever watch that guy play? If you think he's not athletic you're (Please Use More Appropriate Word)

and i'm not in a "Zeller Cult" just because I think he's athletic and a better basketball player than some bozo who played at a junior college that won 6 games over the last 3 seasons. I've had my criticisms of Zeller

Steven Adams is not athletic either. He's 7 feet tall. That's about it. Ibaka, biz, Jordan, Drummond those are athletic big guys. Not Zeller and Adams I will NEVER change my stance on this topic so let's just agree to disagree. Your getting size and athletism mixed up

[Eoghan]

Cody is a beast. With a little bit more development, he might be as good as Lou Amundson one day.