Motor Keeps Going: The Michael Kidd-Gilchrist Thread III

[fatlever]

https://audioboom.com/posts/5828442-locked-on-hornets-4-18-17-mkg-stays-healthy-but-did-it-come-at-a-cost

Some good points on MKG, perhaps protecting his shoulder some (paid off with 81 games played), but less shots w/in 3feet, less FTA.

[yosemiteben]

Not fully baked, but I think Marv is getting off a little easy here in terms of his impact on MKG. We have three guys in our starting lineup who have practically zero ability to create for anyone else with the ball in their hands. Cody is getting better at directing traffic, but he is not really a threat with the ball in his hands unless it's as the roll man in PNR actions. Marv and MKG look to score themselves but are not creating scoring opportunities for teammates off the dribble.

I really think the key to unlocking MKG's impact is swapping Frank for Marv. Frank has the same floor spacing impact but adds the ability to create off the dribble and force defensive shifts that open up cutting opportunities for MKG and also has the awareness and passing ability to capitalize on those opportunities. It's kind of what Cliff was trying to accomplish by putting in Marco for MKG to close out games - put greater pressure on defenses by greater ball movement and offensive firepower - but you capitalize on MKG's strengths by plugging in Frank.

I do think it is important to emphasize that goal 1 with MKG this season was prove you can stay healthy. He surely played with that goal in mind.

[fatlever]

I think a lot of us had hope that MKG would one day display some playmaking abilities of his own and that has not happened. MJ compared MKG to Pippen when we drafted him, for his ability to be a "connector". MKG said he studied Iggy's game, which a huge part is his ability to create.

With that said, does our front office/coaching staff(s) over the years deserve some blame for MKG's lack of development in this area? In hindsight, would MKG have been better off if coaches forced him to play point guard (or point forward) in summer league, or training camp, in an attempt to get him more comfortable with making decisions with the ball in his hands?

MKG appears to be no better of a ball handler, passer, playmaker, than he was as a rookie.

If we accept MKG for what he is, and not what we hope he becomes, then playing him next to Frank would probably help. In fact, it helps both guys because MKG is good cover for Frank on defense.

In order for our team to take the next step it is important to Frank to take that starting job from Marvin, but before that happens Frank has to show more consistency. (another topic on both points)

[catch20two]

At least RHJ attempt 3s.

On 22.4%

Probably not the most efficient decision

I feel like for the flow of the offense you must take wide open 3s even if you only make 1 out of every 4. I just want for him to at least be a threat from there. Passing up open shots just to pass the ball back to players that are being defended is letting opposing defenses off too easy. I honestly feel like MKG could be a 30-35% shooter from beyond the arc if he set out to do so. Especially considering how open he would be.

[fatlever]

The first step for MKG is to become mentally comfortable with the idea of shooting 3s in games. I would have preferred to see him shoot several 3s a game last year at 22% than to refuse to shoot any, regardless of being wide open.

[yosemiteben]

Very nice deep dive on MKG: https://www.holyfield.co/blog/2017/4/13/just-a-kidd

[Vanderbilt_Grad]

Some good stuff in the posts on this page so far.

I don't have confidence in MKG as being a good fit for this team. I agree that swapping Frank for Marv starting wise might help a lot. I liked the discussion about MKG's shoulder and it's impact on him ... but IDK that this is something he can really fix given how much of his game relies on his speed and energy.

[Mystical Apples]

I don't see the upside in starting Frank. Even if he's the better option, the marginal gains are outweighed by pigeonholing him at PF. It also hinders matchup possibilities 2-5 and requires giving Plumlee minutes over MKG and/or Marvin.

[Mystical Apples]

If CHA acquires a sturdy wing I'd consider starting MKG over Marvin, not Frank. That way MKG doesn't get lost in the wilderness and Frank + Marvin are fresh to exploit 2nd units.

[yosemiteben]

I think there's more than marginal gains by starting Frank. I think he's a much more dynamic option than Marv and would create better ball movement and force defensive shifts.

I also don't see the issue with pigeonholing him at PF because (a) I continue to not see a significant distinction between PF and C generally and specifically as applied to Frank and (b) even if that distinction is present and worth working around, it would not be hard to manage the rotation to get Frank some C minutes.

I will point out that Marv and Frank on the floor together generally did not work out for us (-5.4 net rating on the season, -4.3 post-ASB, worst 2 man pairing involving Frank other than Weber). By contrast, the two man lineup with the highest net rating among all players for us this season by far was Cody and Frank (+11.1 net rating on the season, +11.9 post-ASB).

[fatlever]

Very nice deep dive on MKG: https://www.holyfield.co/blog/2017/4/13/just-a-kidd

Read this last night. Finally getting around to responding. Thanks for the link. Clear this person has done their homework on MKG. They pointed out all the flaws that we have been talking about for months/years
- required rhythm dribble on C&S jumpers
- prefers to shoot going left
- no left hand, almost never finished with left hand
- often mysteriously loses when gathering for a shot
- no change of direction when barreling at a defender on fast break -> offensive fouls

However, I don't share much of the enthusiasm over various other parts of MKGs game such as
- shooting 37 on mid range (hint, its because he's wide open, almost nobody in the league gets more space on their shots than MKG, because any time MKG shoots a jumper its a win for the defense and because his release is so slow/low that it's easy to close on him)
- I'm not terribly impressive by his few post buckets at the hands of defending PGs, not enough attempts to really matter

[Braggins]

Whether or not to start Frank depends a lot on what we do with the rest of the bench. We currently need his skillset on the bench more than the starting unit, but if we got a playmaking backup PG like Rubio then switching Marv and Frank makes more sense.

[fatlever]

I'm still not buying MKG at PF, at least not as a starter.

[Mystical Apples]

I think there's more than marginal gains by starting Frank. I think he's a much more dynamic option than Marv and would create better ball movement and force defensive shifts.

We agree but there are diminishing returns in early lineups with Kemba, Nic, and Cody. I'd rather lock Marvin into those 24 vanilla minutes before opponents adjust in Q4 to stop Kemba -- starting Frank would lead to plenty of nights where Frank plays ~ 32 minutes and Marvin/MKG under 25.

2nd unit playmaking gets tricky too, specifically separating Marco and Frank.

I also don't see the issue with pigeonholing him at PF because (a) I continue to not see a significant distinction between PF and C generally and specifically as applied to Frank and (b) even if that distinction is present and worth working around, it would not be hard to manage the rotation to get Frank some C minutes.

To me it's about maximizing 240 minutes. Frank at PF or C is somewhat immaterial compared using his versatility to get the best players on the court at 3 other positions. In that way it's about Plumlee v Marvin, Plumlee v MKG, 3 MKG v 4 MKG, and indirectly 14 minutes of Lamb v 20 minutes of Lamb operating in space next to Marco and Frank at C.

I will point out that Marv and Frank on the floor together generally did not work out for us (-5.4 net rating on the season, -4.3 post-ASB, worst 2 man pairing involving Frank other than Weber). By contrast, the two man lineup with the highest net rating among all players for us this season by far was Cody and Frank (+11.1 net rating on the season, +11.9 post-ASB).

Some of the Frank + Marvin rating captures CHA's lack of 2nd unit defensive versatility and the PG situation. There's just no way I'd play them in non-switching lineups with Sessions-Marco, Sessions-Kemba, Marco-Roberts...it's just begging for problems.

The goal should be surrounding them with another plus defender who rebounds and switches.

[yosemiteben]

Yeah I think all that is fair. If you're asking what is our best performing lineup, or our lineup with the highest ceiling and lowest floor, it's our starters minus Marv and plus Frank. But I agree that second unit considerations are important and I'm generally focused on finding the single most impactful lineup.

I agree that that Marv - Frank metric captures some second unit yuckiness, but I think eye test backs up that it really didn't work out. I should run 5 man lineup stats to confirm, but I'm on the go.

[Mystical Apples]

I'm still not buying MKG at PF, at least not as a starter.

Hypothetically speaking, let's assume a starting caliber SG is acquired who's at least a mildly plus defender. Oladipo checks a lot of boxes so I'd target him. Which is the better defensive alignment (for arguments sake CHA's core remains intact)...

1. Oladipo SG, Batum SF, MKG PF

2. Batum SG, MKG SF, Marvin PF

Personally, I'd take #1 and live the with occasions when MKG is undersized compared to the 90% of the time Nic is chasing SG's. Better overall perimeter defense too and Oladipo doubles as backup PG with Nic on the floor.

[fatlever]

I guess I should state, that I don't see Clifford starting MKG, not that I don't see the value in MKG at PF. Clifford is barely able to bring himself to play MKG at PF later in games, even as matchups favor Hornets to play small. Plus I worry that MKG might pick fouls quicker/earlier trying to guard starting caliber PFs, as opposed to wings. MKG was getting bullied last year when matched up vs some PFs and bigger wings. Defensively, I am always more comfortable with MKG guarding smaller players as opposed to bigger players. Offensively, it makes a ton of sense, provided we find a wing worthy of knocking Marvin/Frank out of the starting lineup.

[Eoghan]

If a PF that can't provide spacing with long range ability is going the way of the Dodo then an undersized PF that can't provide spacing is just doubling down on stupidity, especially considering the undersized PF in question has connective tissue made of rice paper. Clifford is already digging our graves with over-helping defense for Cody and he isn't nearly as undersized at C as MKG would be at PF.

[Braggins]

If a PF that can't provide spacing with long range ability is going the way of the Dodo then an undersized PF that can't provide spacing is just doubling down on stupidity, especially considering the undersized PF in question has connective tissue made of rice paper. Clifford is already digging our graves with over-helping defense for Cody and he isn't nearly as undersized at C as MKG would be at PF.

We could take advantage of his speed in transition at PF if Clifford wasn't obsessed with rewriting the history book on team defensive rebounding %.

[fatlever]

QCH - Is It Time to Move on From MKG?

http://queencityhoops.com/blog/is-it-time-to-move-on-from-mkg/