The Steve Clifford Thread 2.0 - Off the Cliff we go

[fatlever]

Varys - The Steve Clifford Thread?

[bws94]

I think Cliff overrates Batum. Batum can give you steadiness, organization, distribution but I'm not convinced he can take you home in games. Kemba took us home in so many games, Marvin helped, Lin took us home in some games, Daniels shot us home a few games. It doesn't seem Batum's nature to want to take those huge shots or make those huge plays in the home-stretch. And putting so much on Kemba next season, where there may not be Marvin, or Lin, or either, is not good (unless they have suitable replacements).

I also think Cliff sometimes sees the groups that have it in a game or players that do, and sometimes not. Sometimes going to his guys too much, sometimes not. And I hope Kemba's minutes go down next season. He's young, he's a warrior, but his style of play will have his injuries mount up as the years go on. If he has a suitable guard with him, some of those minutes can go to that guard. In general, his rotations and minutes distribution could use improvement.

Cliff has really good press conferences when he isn't defensive. He talks a good game, walks it sometimes, sometimes not. All-in-all, Cliff has potential to be a really good coach if he doesn't let his stubbornness get in his way. I hope he learns the lessons of Game 7. Maybe the game is an L anyway, but his game-time management didn't help. Kudos to get the team to the playoffs and win 3 games with 1 key piece down and 1 significantly injured and down 2 games. Big accomplishment.

[rallydurham]

Whats the lesson to be learned in game 7, don't try to play 5 injured players simultaneously?

Zeller could barely walk, marv elbow was messed up, kemba had a torn meniscus, mkg torn labrum, batum couldn't take his shoe off between g6 and g7, al is 80 in dog years, hawes was inactive...

Honestly I think we should have just put troy Daniels in and let him take 80 three pointers. He's a 48% shooter so it gave us a chance to crack 90 points

[fatlever]

http://wfnz.com/2016/06/02/steve-clifford-on-the-finals-biz-fa-and-more/

Clifford interview from this morning on WFNZ. Apparently he was asked about Biz. Listening now...

[fatlever]

http://wfnz.com/2016/06/02/steve-clifford-on-the-finals-biz-fa-and-more/

Clifford interview from this morning on WFNZ. Apparently he was asked about Biz. Listening now...

This one is worth a listen. Cliff talks about:

- NBA Finals
- Free agency, wanting to stay as 4-out, 1-in, not able to retain all 5 key free agents
- Biz, how it was good for both Biz and Hornets, Biz felt too much pressure to score here because he was a lotto pick, works better in Toronto where he has guys like Kyle and DD who can break down defense and drop off passes to Biz, as opposed to him catching on run, and how we had log jam at center after Hawes trade
- MKG update
- Silas, not really interested in Portland job, but very likely to go to GS as top assistant for a championship level team, has other assistants to step up, mentions that Delany responsible for big improvements with Marvin and Cody and we'll see the work he's doing with Frank next year, Hetzel responsible for big improvements with Kemba helping him with pick and rolls.
- Orioles

[fatlever]

Why do we never hear anything about Bob Weiss' role with the team? He is never interviewed and he always sits behind the team on the bench. Yet, he has more coaching experience than anyone else on the staff.

[Eoghan]

How can you have pressure to score when your teammates pass to you maybe twice a game and usually out of sheer desperation? Kemba can't break down defenses? STFU Clifford.

[TinmanZBoy]

How can you have pressure to score when your teammates pass to you maybe twice a game and usually out of sheer desperation? Kemba can't break down defenses? STFU Clifford.

Clifford just felt bad to say Kemba can break down defenses..................................for himself

[yosemiteben]

How can you have pressure to score when your teammates pass to you maybe twice a game and usually out of sheer desperation?

Pressure to score probably came from having the league's worst offense every year that he was on the team.

A bit of chicken and egg when it comes to why he didn't / couldn't receive post feeds. Also per 36 he scored basically exactly the same amount in TOR as he did in CHA, so claims that he had a greater offensive load are mostly hyperbolic.

[BeesWax]

How can you have pressure to score when your teammates pass to you maybe twice a game and usually out of sheer desperation? Kemba can't break down defenses? STFU Clifford.

I think the pressure he felt to score had to do with where he was pick and the inability to build any functional offense around him. Since the only hope we seemed to have of setting up plays was to throw it in to Al I am sure he felt obligated to try to replicate that rather than do what he was more suited for.

[Eoghan]

When was Bismack supposed to be pressured to score? When he was sitting on the bench for not showing enough energy and rebounding (literally Bismack's calling cards) while over the hill Jason Maxiell was waddling around? Or when midget Jeff Adrien was playing in front of him for no reason?

Clifford can make all the excuses he wants but he's full of bison excrement as far as Biz is concerned. He flat out could not figure out how to utilize him, end of story.

[TinmanZBoy]

http://wfnz.com/2016/06/02/steve-clifford-on-the-finals-biz-fa-and-more/

Clifford interview from this morning on WFNZ. Apparently he was asked about Biz. Listening now...

\

If i am a girl, coach clifford absolutely can talk me into having sex with him...love listening to his interviews

[yosemiteben]

Clifford can make all the excuses he wants but he's full of bison excrement as far as Biz is concerned. He flat out could not figure out how to utilize him, end of story.

I think it's more he wanted Biz to do more, and Biz couldn't. It's not exactly hard to have Biz spend 50% of his time camping by the basket hunting for O boards and 50% of his time randomly running around setting screens. If that fits your system, go for it. If you want your five to be regularly involved in your ball movement and be able to score outside of lobs, Biz is not your guy.

Let's not act like TOR utilized Biz in a way we didn't. Biz's numbers are practically identical between last season and this season, and his role was practically identical as well.

CHA: 19.4 MPG, 4.8 pts, 54.3% FG, 2.9 FGA, 6.4 boards, 2.5 o boards, 1.5 blk
TOR: 22.0 MPG, 5.5 pts, 54.2% FG, 3.1 FGA, 8.0 boards, 2.2 o boards, 1.6 blk

We are clearly a better defensive rebounding team than TOR, so not surprising that Biz grabbed a couple more D boards there. Otherwise, exactly the same numbers.

Let's be honest, Biz has gotten a little better on the boards and a bit more efficient finishing around the basket, but he is basically the same player today that he was when he was drafted five seasons ago.

Stats in his 2011-12 season per 36: 8.1 pts, 46.4% FG, 9.1 boards, 2.8 blk
Stats this season per 36: 9.0 pts, 54.2% FG, 13.0 boards, 2.6 blk

[Mystical Apples]

I'd laugh if someone told me this 5th year player was considered a borderline starter in 2016, let alone the subject of regret. The closest would be 25-year-old Asik but there's simply no universe where Biz is the same defender as Asik from 2010-11, 2011-2012:

11.7 usage, 5.9 assist ratio, 14.6 TO ratio.

http://stats.nba.com/league/player/#!/advanced/?Season=2015-16&SeasonType=Regular%20Season&PlayerPosition=C&CF=USG_PCT*LE*12%7CAST_RATIO*LE*8%7CTM_TOV_PCT*GE*12&sort=AST_RATIO&dir=-1


Keep in mind Toronto is a high usage perimeter vacuum with relatively limited ball movement. Of the past 180 franchise "seasons" since 2010-11, Toronto had the 3rd worst assist% (bottom 2 percentile). Anything besides gigs with the likes of Toronto, Detroit, OKC, and Portland would severely hamper his team's lineup construction possibilities:

http://stats.nba.com/league/team/#!/advanced/?Season=2015-16&SeasonType=Regular%20Season&sort=AST_PCT&dir=-1


Chasing blocks and rebounds do carry team penalties. Toronto was just plain better on the defensive glass when Biz sat:

http://stats.nba.com/team/#!/1610612761/onoffcourt/advanced/?Season=2015-16&SeasonType=Regular%20Season&sort=DREB_PCT&dir=1

[Eoghan]

Clifford can make all the excuses he wants but he's full of bison excrement as far as Biz is concerned. He flat out could not figure out how to utilize him, end of story.

I think it's more he wanted Biz to do more, and Biz couldn't. It's not exactly hard to have Biz spend 50% of his time camping by the basket hunting for O boards and 50% of his time randomly running around setting screens. If that fits your system, go for it. If you want your five to be regularly involved in your ball movement and be able to score outside of lobs, Biz is not your guy.

Let's not act like TOR utilized Biz in a way we didn't. Biz's numbers are practically identical between last season and this season, and his role was practically identical as well.

CHA: 19.4 MPG, 4.8 pts, 54.3% FG, 2.9 FGA, 6.4 boards, 2.5 o boards, 1.5 blk
TOR: 22.0 MPG, 5.5 pts, 54.2% FG, 3.1 FGA, 8.0 boards, 2.2 o boards, 1.6 blk

We are clearly a better defensive rebounding team than TOR, so not surprising that Biz grabbed a couple more D boards there. Otherwise, exactly the same numbers.

Let's be honest, Biz has gotten a little better on the boards and a bit more efficient finishing around the basket, but he is basically the same player today that he was when he was drafted five seasons ago.

Stats in his 2011-12 season per 36: 8.1 pts, 46.4% FG, 9.1 boards, 2.8 blk
Stats this season per 36: 9.0 pts, 54.2% FG, 13.0 boards, 2.6 blk

Let's be honest, you can't evaluate a player beyond cherry picked stats if you think Bismack is the same player he was when he was drafted. He went from a guy that couldn't score on a chair to an integral part of Toronto's EASTERN CONFERENCE FINALS run. No one is going to take your statistical analysis seriously if your argument is the same "You can't win with Bismack, 4v5 on offense, etc" record that Biyombo just shattered like Steve Kerr breaking a clipboard with this past season.

Clifford is a system coach, Biz didn't fit his system. That's it.

[yosemiteben]

Let's be honest, you can't evaluate a player beyond cherry picked stats if you think Bismack is the same player he was when he was drafted. He went from a guy that couldn't score on a chair to an integral part of Toronto's EASTERN CONFERENCE FINALS run.

Biz averaged 6.2 ppg in 25 mpg in the playoffs, actually slightly worse on a per 36 basis than his already underwhelming scoring during the regular season and basically the same as what he averaged in his rookie season. Even though his efficiency has improved since his rookie season, his scoring volume has not and his efficiency has not improved since the 2013-14 season. There really is not any argument that Biz is a significantly better scorer today than he was three seasons ago. He also clearly is not any better of a passer, since he put up a career high in assists per 36 in his rookie season.

When Biz was a rookie he had a game where he posted 10 points, 15 boards, and 7 blocks. He's always had the ability to block shots and grab boards. He had some good games in the playoffs where he grabbed a lot of boards and played game changing D, and he also had some terrible games where he did nothing and was irrelevant. That's pretty much Biz's career in a nutshell.

No one is going to take your statistical analysis seriously if your argument is the same "You can't win with Bismack, 4v5 on offense, etc" record...

My point is that he has not shown significant improvement since he was drafted, and TOR used him in pretty much exactly the same way and got the exact same production out of him that we did.

[yosemiteben]

Chasing blocks and rebounds do carry team penalties. Toronto was just plain better on the defensive glass when Biz sat:

http://stats.nba.com/team/#!/1610612761/onoffcourt/advanced/?Season=2015-16&SeasonType=Regular%20Season&sort=DREB_PCT&dir=1

On/off stats are inherently flawed, but TOR's are not kind to Biz. TOR had more efficient shooting across the board (FG%, 3PT%, TS%, eFG%), higher DRB% and ORB%, higher net rating, higher assist ratio, and a faster pace when Biz was off the floor. His off court TS% and eFG% is the highest on the team.

[Braggins]

Imagine how good Toronto would have been this year if they had Spencer Hawes instead of Biz. I'm thinking 65-70 wins and a finals appearance.

[BeesWax]

Clifford can make all the excuses he wants but he's full of bison excrement as far as Biz is concerned. He flat out could not figure out how to utilize him, end of story.

I think it's more he wanted Biz to do more, and Biz couldn't. It's not exactly hard to have Biz spend 50% of his time camping by the basket hunting for O boards and 50% of his time randomly running around setting screens. If that fits your system, go for it. If you want your five to be regularly involved in your ball movement and be able to score outside of lobs, Biz is not your guy.

Let's not act like TOR utilized Biz in a way we didn't. Biz's numbers are practically identical between last season and this season, and his role was practically identical as well.

CHA: 19.4 MPG, 4.8 pts, 54.3% FG, 2.9 FGA, 6.4 boards, 2.5 o boards, 1.5 blk
TOR: 22.0 MPG, 5.5 pts, 54.2% FG, 3.1 FGA, 8.0 boards, 2.2 o boards, 1.6 blk

We are clearly a better defensive rebounding team than TOR, so not surprising that Biz grabbed a couple more D boards there. Otherwise, exactly the same numbers.

Let's be honest, Biz has gotten a little better on the boards and a bit more efficient finishing around the basket, but he is basically the same player today that he was when he was drafted five seasons ago.

Stats in his 2011-12 season per 36: 8.1 pts, 46.4% FG, 9.1 boards, 2.8 blk
Stats this season per 36: 9.0 pts, 54.2% FG, 13.0 boards, 2.6 blk

Let's be honest, you can't evaluate a player beyond cherry picked stats if you think Bismack is the same player he was when he was drafted. He went from a guy that couldn't score on a chair to an integral part of Toronto's EASTERN CONFERENCE FINALS run. No one is going to take your statistical analysis seriously if your argument is the same "You can't win with Bismack, 4v5 on offense, etc" record that Biyombo just shattered like Steve Kerr breaking a clipboard with this past season.

Clifford is a system coach, Biz didn't fit his system. That's it.

This is a post that needs so much more than just a +1.

Cliff could not figure out how to use Biz right within his system and we missed an opportunity.

[yosemiteben]

I don't understand the argument that Cliff couldn't figure out how to use him. He used him in exactly the same way last season that TOR did this season with identical results, in a role that any other team that has Biz in their rotation in the future will have to. It's not that Cliff didn't understand how to plug Biz in for around 20 mpg off the bench to chase blocks and boards and set screens, it's that he wanted more offensive versatility from that position.

I don't disagree that Cliff did not think Biz was a good fit for what he wanted to do with this team offensively and that that is primarily reason Biz isn't here.