Harden trade: Safe to call a failure now?

[JoseRizal]

You just got one more vote for yes...

[asindc]

It was safe to call it a failure then.

[heatwillbeback]

at some point you need to stop building and go all in on what you have.

You had three stars. You had role players. All you needed was to keep surrounding them with vets (not Derek Fisher).

Look, I get it. Jeremy Lamb and Perry Jones are talented. However, that talent doesnt mean all that much to a contending team. Turn it into something that could win now. Thats the key, and its something that OKC doesnt seem to be very good at. They are past the stage of collecting assets, and need to go all in on what they have. You cant always be building.

[LightTheBeam]

I personally have him at #9 or #10 (I flip-flop on Dwight all the time due to injuries, attitude, etc.) but most people refer to him as a top 15 player so I just went with that.

Name 8 players better than Harden

LeBron, Durant, Paul, Melo, Kobe, Westbrook, Duncan, Parker, and easily Dwight when he gets his act together.

You are reaching extremely hard on a lot of these players. I would hands down rather have Harden over Melo, Kobe and as much as I love Duncan him as well.

Tier 1 - Lebron
Tier 2 -Durant
Tier 3 - Paul, Westbrook, Harden, Parker, Dwight(when healthy, motivated, and not acting like a clown... so never) and maybe, maybe, Paul George. We will see how Rose comes back from this injury.

To hands down put these tier 3 players ahead of him is crazy. You can't tell me switching out Harden for any ONE player not named Lebron or Durant would make the Rockets better. As far as overall value I think Harden is 3rd really. Crazy to think last year was the 1st season he has had the chance to do his thing, can't imagine this guys ceiling.

OKC's front office really screwed up a good thing, they have proven to be amazing at drafting and absolutely horrible at trading. Kd has no real reason to stay, that team is not contending anytime soon unless Lamb becomes Harden 2.0

[nyc6]

If you don't understand how a small market team can't afford to pay million's in penalties than I can't help you. And every year it would get worse basically.

Discussions of whether or not OKC should have traded harden is a waste of time. It's sad that 80%+ posters are talking about. OKc is a small market team and had to trade harden as they can't afford him. I'm sick of these boards theories that some players should never be traded like Jrue holiday

The discussion should be about why did presti wait until last minute and make such a careless off-market deal with his back against the wall leading to extremely poor return at the time of the trade (who cares how lamb and Adams turn out. All we know is he got 2 #12 picks).

Haven't found any excuses yet for Presti

Harden should have been shopped for 1.5-2 years not last minute

You are fundamentally ignoring that OKC picked Ibaka over Harden. Harden is now considering a top 15 player (some have him in the top 10). Would any team trade a Harden for an Ibaka ?

Like I indirectly indicated I agree with this already but lets cut Presti some slack here and give him a pass on this aspect. I would have kept harden as well as Sg is scarce and stars are irreplaceable, etc. But he is far from untrade-able just like Stephen curry and kyrie Irving (lebron and KD are Only utrade-able players). So trading harden is not outrageous by any means.

The bigger issue is how he handled the trade. Just pure careless and lazy last minute trade

[noobcake]

Name 8 players better than Harden

LeBron, Durant, Paul, Melo, Kobe, Westbrook, Duncan, Parker, and easily Dwight when he gets his act together.

You are reaching extremely hard on a lot of these players. I would hands down rather have Harden over Melo, Kobe and as much as I love Duncan him as well.

Tier 1 - Lebron
Tier 2 -Durant
Tier 3 - Paul, Westbrook, Harden, Parker, Dwight(when healthy, motivated, and not acting like a clown... so never) and maybe, maybe, Paul George. We will see how Rose comes back from this injury.

To hands down put these tier 3 players ahead of him is crazy. You can't tell me switching out Harden for any ONE player not named Lebron or Durant would make the Rockets better. As far as overall value I think Harden is 3rd really. Crazy to think last year was the 1st season he has had the chance to do his thing, can't imagine this guys ceiling.

OKC's front office really screwed up a good thing, they have proven to be amazing at drafting and absolutely horrible at trading. Kd has no real reason to stay, that team is not contending anytime soon unless Lamb becomes Harden 2.0

This

Harden is 6-7th best player, probably 4th in value. I disagree in the sense that Irving has the 3rd most value.

He is 23 year old, built like an ox, has no history of serious injuries, and just put up 26/5/6 on 60% TS.

[ReturnofMVP3]

Unless Lamb or Perry Jones turn out to be alstars who didn't get minutes and/or this guy they drafted is a bust then yes it was a total failure. I'll keep my opinion partial right now but I wouldn't hold my breath either.

[Tumakapac713]

Name 8 players better than Harden

LeBron, Durant, Paul, Melo, Kobe, Westbrook, Duncan, Parker, and easily Dwight when he gets his act together.

You are reaching extremely hard on a lot of these players. I would hands down rather have Harden over Melo, Kobe and as much as I love Duncan him as well.

Tier 1 - Lebron
Tier 2 -Durant
Tier 3 - Paul, Westbrook, Harden, Parker, Dwight(when healthy, motivated, and not acting like a clown... so never) and maybe, maybe, Paul George. We will see how Rose comes back from this injury.

To hands down put these tier 3 players ahead of him is crazy. You can't tell me switching out Harden for any ONE player not named Lebron or Durant would make the Rockets better.

I can easily use the counterargument that if you switch Harden with Parker or Duncan, they wouldn't have made the finals. And i definitely wouldn't rather have Harden "hands down" over Melo or Kobe. Is there an argument? Sure. But it's close. Paul George is close as well and I think it goes without saying that a healthy Derrick Rose is also better than Harden. I have no problem with saying Harden is the 9th or 10th best player in the league right now. Considering he's only been the man for one season, it's pretty impressive.

[OldeBoy]

Name 8 players better than Harden

LeBron, Durant, Paul, Melo, Kobe, Westbrook, Duncan, Parker, and easily Dwight when he gets his act together.

You are reaching extremely hard on a lot of these players. I would hands down rather have Harden over Melo, Kobe and as much as I love Duncan him as well.

Tier 1 - Lebron
Tier 2 -Durant
Tier 3 - Paul, Westbrook, Harden, Parker, Dwight(when healthy, motivated, and not acting like a clown... so never) and maybe, maybe, Paul George. We will see how Rose comes back from this injury.

To hands down put these tier 3 players ahead of him is crazy. You can't tell me switching out Harden for any ONE player not named Lebron or Durant would make the Rockets better. As far as overall value I think Harden is 3rd really. Crazy to think last year was the 1st season he has had the chance to do his thing, can't imagine this guys ceiling.

OKC's front office really screwed up a good thing, they have proven to be amazing at drafting and absolutely horrible at trading. Kd has no real reason to stay, that team is not contending anytime soon unless Lamb becomes Harden 2.0

Not contending anytime soon? Did they contend this year when they won 60 games and had the #1 seed? They have 2 top 7 players who havent even reached their prime yet. Do teams need 3 allstars to contend nowadays?

[theokie]

Its an absolute failure, but not because of the trade, because the owners weren't willing to pony up.

Martin leaving now though has nothing to do with it. Its been reported for 9 months now that he was just a 1 year stop gap, and that he would walk away in free agency. Don't get why everyones acting so surprised.


I don't get why people are already giving up on Lamb just because he didnt get minutes. Reggie Jackson was wearing a suit last postseason, and this postseason he was our second best player at times. OKC is good at drafting and developing players.



If OKC could improve their team after losing Harden, i see no reason why they can't improve their team again after losing Martin.

[Chalky White]

Its an absolute failure, but not because of the trade, because the owners weren't willing to pony up.

Martin leaving now though has nothing to do with it. Its been reported for 9 months now that he was just a 1 year stop gap, and that he would walk away in free agency. Don't get why everyones acting so surprised.


I don't get why people are already giving up on Lamb just because he didnt get minutes. Reggie Jackson was wearing a suit last postseason, and this postseason he was our second best player at times. OKC is good at drafting and developing players.

No, the trade was terrible.

[theokie]

Its an absolute failure, but not because of the trade, because the owners weren't willing to pony up.

Martin leaving now though has nothing to do with it. Its been reported for 9 months now that he was just a 1 year stop gap, and that he would walk away in free agency. Don't get why everyones acting so surprised.


I don't get why people are already giving up on Lamb just because he didnt get minutes. Reggie Jackson was wearing a suit last postseason, and this postseason he was our second best player at times. OKC is good at drafting and developing players.

No, the trade was terrible.

So OKC would have been better off letting him go away for nothing? Ya that makes sense.

Its all on the owners for not wanting to give him the max. He was going to a new team regardless because of that.

[heatwillbeback]

Its an absolute failure, but not because of the trade, because the owners weren't willing to pony up.

Martin leaving now though has nothing to do with it. Its been reported for 9 months now that he was just a 1 year stop gap, and that he would walk away in free agency. Don't get why everyones acting so surprised.


I don't get why people are already giving up on Lamb just because he didnt get minutes. Reggie Jackson was wearing a suit last postseason, and this postseason he was our second best player at times. OKC is good at drafting and developing players.



If OKC could improve their team after losing Harden, i see no reason why they can't improve their team again after losing Martin.

Its not the time to give up established talent in order to develop players- that what rebuilding teams do.

[theokie]

Its an absolute failure, but not because of the trade, because the owners weren't willing to pony up.

Martin leaving now though has nothing to do with it. Its been reported for 9 months now that he was just a 1 year stop gap, and that he would walk away in free agency. Don't get why everyones acting so surprised.


I don't get why people are already giving up on Lamb just because he didnt get minutes. Reggie Jackson was wearing a suit last postseason, and this postseason he was our second best player at times. OKC is good at drafting and developing players.



If OKC could improve their team after losing Harden, i see no reason why they can't improve their team again after losing Martin.

Its not the time to give up established talent in order to develop players- that what rebuilding teams do.

Thanks for clearing that up

We shouldn't have traded Harden, we should've paid him. I already know that and I've repeatedly said that.

Martin knew, OKC fans knew, and OKC management knew for monhts that Martin was leaving this summer, i don't get why NOW the trade was a failure. It was a failure in November. Paying Martin 30 million wouldnt redeem anything.

[Chalky White]

Its an absolute failure, but not because of the trade, because the owners weren't willing to pony up.

Martin leaving now though has nothing to do with it. Its been reported for 9 months now that he was just a 1 year stop gap, and that he would walk away in free agency. Don't get why everyones acting so surprised.


I don't get why people are already giving up on Lamb just because he didnt get minutes. Reggie Jackson was wearing a suit last postseason, and this postseason he was our second best player at times. OKC is good at drafting and developing players.

No, the trade was terrible.

So OKC would have been better off letting him go away for nothing? Ya that makes sense.

Its all on the owners for not wanting to give him the max. He was going to a new team regardless because of that.

He was a restricted free agent, he wouldn't have walked for nothing. Waiting would have netted a much better package than Jeremy Lamb and Steve Adams.


Sam Presti made a poor move, and compounded that be extending one of the worst coaches in the league. He's an overrated GM.

[Sc0pe92]

Now it is

[theokie]

No, the trade was terrible.

So OKC would have been better off letting him go away for nothing? Ya that makes sense.

Its all on the owners for not wanting to give him the max. He was going to a new team regardless because of that.

He was a restricted free agent, he wouldn't have walked for nothing. Waiting would have netted a much better package than Jeremy Lamb and Steve Adams.


Sam Presti made a poor move, and compounded that be extending one of the worst coaches in the league. He's an overrated GM.

He would've walked for nothing had OKC not matched the offer sheet. And trading him on his rookie salary made him more valuable than on a 15 million per year deal. He still would've put up similar numbers.

[LightTheBeam]

LeBron, Durant, Paul, Melo, Kobe, Westbrook, Duncan, Parker, and easily Dwight when he gets his act together.

You are reaching extremely hard on a lot of these players. I would hands down rather have Harden over Melo, Kobe and as much as I love Duncan him as well.

Tier 1 - Lebron
Tier 2 -Durant
Tier 3 - Paul, Westbrook, Harden, Parker, Dwight(when healthy, motivated, and not acting like a clown... so never) and maybe, maybe, Paul George. We will see how Rose comes back from this injury.

To hands down put these tier 3 players ahead of him is crazy. You can't tell me switching out Harden for any ONE player not named Lebron or Durant would make the Rockets better. As far as overall value I think Harden is 3rd really. Crazy to think last year was the 1st season he has had the chance to do his thing, can't imagine this guys ceiling.

OKC's front office really screwed up a good thing, they have proven to be amazing at drafting and absolutely horrible at trading. Kd has no real reason to stay, that team is not contending anytime soon unless Lamb becomes Harden 2.0

Not contending anytime soon? Did they contend this year when they won 60 games and had the #1 seed? They have 2 top 7 players who havent even reached their prime yet. Do teams need 3 allstars to contend nowadays?

They are capped out with the roster they have. Additionally, they have so far been unwilling to pay to retain any of their guys. I don't see them pulling a Miami, Nets, Celtics of the past and going out to sign veterans like Allen, Battier, Korver and countless other guys. Excuse me if I have a problem believing Reggie Jackson can be a 3rd option offensively on a title contender.

They are absolutely unwilling to even get close to the luxury tax. Moreover I don't see players rushing to play with a selfish point guard regardless how good he is. Some of the incentive to signing with teams like Miami is that veterans love to play with Lebron, he makes players much better and the team has a lot of fun.

They are a small market and will continue to act like 1 (trading established talent for youth, not paying the luxury tax, unwilling to resign their own players).

[theokie]

They are capped out with the roster they have. Additionally, they have so far been unwilling to pay to retain any of their guys. I don't see them pulling a Miami, Nets, Celtics of the past and going out to sign veterans like Allen, Battier, Korver and countless other guys. Excuse me if I have a problem believing Reggie Jackson can be a 3rd option offensively on a title contender.

They are absolutely unwilling to even get close to the luxury tax. Moreover I don't see players rushing to play with a selfish point guard regardless how good he is. Some of the incentive to signing with teams like Miami is that veterans love to play with Lebron, he makes players much better and the team has a lot of fun.

They are a small market and will continue to act like 1 (trading established talent for youth, not paying the luxury tax, unwilling to resign their own players).

How close would've OKC gotten to the luxury tax had Harden signed the 4 year/55 million deal?

Oh? 10 million over the luxury tax level? Im curious how that shows that the owners are "absolutely unwilling to even get close to the luxury tax"




And theres no reason why Reggie Jackson can't be the equivalent to what James Harden was for the Thunder during the 2012 Finals run.

Jackson this postseason in his 2nd year in the league.
14-5-4 and 48/30/90

Harden last postseason in his 3rd year in the league.
16-5-3 and 44/41/86

So if Jackson gets the minutes, why exactly is it impossible for him to duplicate what Harden's role was?

[karkinos]

if okc was gonna win, this year was gonna be the year. and winning one ring is all that matters. that opportunity can never come back for okc.
injured dwade, casper bosh, and a weaker bench left miami vulnerable.

if an aging spurs team took the heat to 7, imagine what harden/KD/WB would do. WB wouldn't have gotten injured either since the rockets wouldn't have made the playoffs.