Re: Jordan's iso efficiency with just his left hand compared to iso efficiency of today's players.
Posted: Sun Mar 17, 2024 5:18 am
so when you say "with one hand tied behind his back", you mean it
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ForeverTFC wrote:Snake3 wrote:ForeverTFC wrote:Not comparable. Isolation is a different beast with and without illegal defense.
But it was isolation with no good spacing and with no 3 defensive second.
All and all, it was a different game back then.
And MJ play style was just two-three dribbles and then he makes a shot or a pass. He was always quick with his decision making.
No defensive 3 second doesn’t really matter in an era of illegal defense because you have to be near a man and guard them. If you move your center out the paint, the other center can’t sit there. 3 seconds was introduced after illegal defense was taken out the game.
NyKnicks1714 wrote:For someone who watched the video: Did he compare Jordan going left to other players going to their non-dominant hand? That comparison is necessary before we can assign value to this one. We also need to know the rate at which everyone in the comparison went to their dominant vs non-dominant hand. Surprising a defender by doing the opposite of what you expect them to, so if you don't go left or right very often it gives you an advantage when you do.
For example, I'm assuming Jordan was more efficient going to his left on iso's than he was going right, but that doesn't mean he was better going left than right.
I'm sure a lot of this was covered by the creator and I'm sure it's a good video, but 25 minutes. TLDW please.
NO-KG-AI wrote:zimpy27 wrote:NO-KG-AI wrote:
Based on what?
Based on it being a more regular move and much less help defense and no zone either.
More suited to isolation play than 00s or later.
More teams iso’d in the post Jordan era from a volume standing, but I’ve never seen anything suggesting that iso’s are less efficient now than they were, considering how easy it is to draw fouls and the space.
I’d love to see the efficiency numbers on isos, I’d guess they are more efficient now.
Heej wrote:NO-KG-AI wrote:zimpy27 wrote:
Based on it being a more regular move and much less help defense and no zone either.
More suited to isolation play than 00s or later.
More teams iso’d in the post Jordan era from a volume standing, but I’ve never seen anything suggesting that iso’s are less efficient now than they were, considering how easy it is to draw fouls and the space.
I’d love to see the efficiency numbers on isos, I’d guess they are more efficient now.
Surely you aren't talking about foul drawing now as if players of this era had it easier than Jordan in the 90s with regards to how refs whistled them? Because that would be hilarious. That man was an outlier among outliers on film when you see the type of ticky tack fouls he got awarded every game. At least 2018 Harden had the skills to bait people, Jordan literally walked into free throws.
And anyone with a cursory understanding of rotations can see how doubles, swarms, and stunts are able to be enacted from shorter distances and are more cleverly disguised in the modern era considering how just the existence of the illegal defense rule (even if it wasn't called every possession) had its own gravitational pull that you can clearly see had 90s players one step closer to their man in their most aggressive help packages compared to now.
But hey, when faced with the possibility of cognitive dissonance I too would simply make an impossible demand like "show me the numbers for all isos in the 90s vs now" instead of considering how rule changes, player quality, and coaching quality have made for a more competitive overall landscape in the modern era.
Heej wrote:NO-KG-AI wrote:zimpy27 wrote:
Based on it being a more regular move and much less help defense and no zone either.
More suited to isolation play than 00s or later.
More teams iso’d in the post Jordan era from a volume standing, but I’ve never seen anything suggesting that iso’s are less efficient now than they were, considering how easy it is to draw fouls and the space.
I’d love to see the efficiency numbers on isos, I’d guess they are more efficient now.
Surely you aren't talking about foul drawing now as if players of this era had it easier than Jordan in the 90s with regards to how refs whistled them? Because that would be hilarious. That man was an outlier among outliers on film when you see the type of ticky tack fouls he got awarded every game. At least 2018 Harden had the skills to bait people, Jordan literally walked into free throws.
And anyone with a cursory understanding of rotations can see how doubles, swarms, and stunts are able to be enacted from shorter distances and are more cleverly disguised in the modern era considering how just the existence of the illegal defense rule (even if it wasn't called every possession) had its own gravitational pull that you can clearly see had 90s players one step closer to their man in their most aggressive help packages compared to now.
But hey, when faced with the possibility of cognitive dissonance I too would simply make an impossible demand like "show me the numbers for all isos in the 90s vs now" instead of considering how rule changes, player quality, and coaching quality have made for a more competitive overall landscape in the modern era.
MavsDirk41 wrote:Heej wrote:NO-KG-AI wrote:
More teams iso’d in the post Jordan era from a volume standing, but I’ve never seen anything suggesting that iso’s are less efficient now than they were, considering how easy it is to draw fouls and the space.
I’d love to see the efficiency numbers on isos, I’d guess they are more efficient now.
Surely you aren't talking about foul drawing now as if players of this era had it easier than Jordan in the 90s with regards to how refs whistled them? Because that would be hilarious. That man was an outlier among outliers on film when you see the type of ticky tack fouls he got awarded every game. At least 2018 Harden had the skills to bait people, Jordan literally walked into free throws.
And anyone with a cursory understanding of rotations can see how doubles, swarms, and stunts are able to be enacted from shorter distances and are more cleverly disguised in the modern era considering how just the existence of the illegal defense rule (even if it wasn't called every possession) had its own gravitational pull that you can clearly see had 90s players one step closer to their man in their most aggressive help packages compared to now.
But hey, when faced with the possibility of cognitive dissonance I too would simply make an impossible demand like "show me the numbers for all isos in the 90s vs now" instead of considering how rule changes, player quality, and coaching quality have made for a more competitive overall landscape in the modern era.
Lol player quality? The nba is deeper because of the international talent but do you want to compare the nba finals teams from last year to any year in the 90s? So Miami and Denver were head and shoulders above finals teams in the 90s i guess right?
Rule changes? They changed it but how many years were offensive players allowed to pump fake and then literally jump straight into the defender and be rewarded with free throws? Players were flopping so much they are now calling a technical foul on players egregiously caught flopping. And coaching quality? Lol what?
Lockdown504090 wrote:MavsDirk41 wrote:Heej wrote:Surely you aren't talking about foul drawing now as if players of this era had it easier than Jordan in the 90s with regards to how refs whistled them? Because that would be hilarious. That man was an outlier among outliers on film when you see the type of ticky tack fouls he got awarded every game. At least 2018 Harden had the skills to bait people, Jordan literally walked into free throws.
And anyone with a cursory understanding of rotations can see how doubles, swarms, and stunts are able to be enacted from shorter distances and are more cleverly disguised in the modern era considering how just the existence of the illegal defense rule (even if it wasn't called every possession) had its own gravitational pull that you can clearly see had 90s players one step closer to their man in their most aggressive help packages compared to now.
But hey, when faced with the possibility of cognitive dissonance I too would simply make an impossible demand like "show me the numbers for all isos in the 90s vs now" instead of considering how rule changes, player quality, and coaching quality have made for a more competitive overall landscape in the modern era.
Lol player quality? The nba is deeper because of the international talent but do you want to compare the nba finals teams from last year to any year in the 90s? So Miami and Denver were head and shoulders above finals teams in the 90s i guess right?
Rule changes? They changed it but how many years were offensive players allowed to pump fake and then literally jump straight into the defender and be rewarded with free throws? Players were flopping so much they are now calling a technical foul on players egregiously caught flopping. And coaching quality? Lol what?
As a coach, thats the one area thats definitely gotten better. Teams have more coaches. more numbers. more trainers. its easier to spread information. I went to a coaching clinic in spain vegas and australlia without leaving my house and I get to take all that information and give it to my players wheras my coach couldnt do that when I was playing without taking trips. teams have double the coaches they had 20 years ago, undisputable fact.... and they have big data companies on top of that.
MavsDirk41 wrote:Heej wrote:NO-KG-AI wrote:
More teams iso’d in the post Jordan era from a volume standing, but I’ve never seen anything suggesting that iso’s are less efficient now than they were, considering how easy it is to draw fouls and the space.
I’d love to see the efficiency numbers on isos, I’d guess they are more efficient now.
Surely you aren't talking about foul drawing now as if players of this era had it easier than Jordan in the 90s with regards to how refs whistled them? Because that would be hilarious. That man was an outlier among outliers on film when you see the type of ticky tack fouls he got awarded every game. At least 2018 Harden had the skills to bait people, Jordan literally walked into free throws.
And anyone with a cursory understanding of rotations can see how doubles, swarms, and stunts are able to be enacted from shorter distances and are more cleverly disguised in the modern era considering how just the existence of the illegal defense rule (even if it wasn't called every possession) had its own gravitational pull that you can clearly see had 90s players one step closer to their man in their most aggressive help packages compared to now.
But hey, when faced with the possibility of cognitive dissonance I too would simply make an impossible demand like "show me the numbers for all isos in the 90s vs now" instead of considering how rule changes, player quality, and coaching quality have made for a more competitive overall landscape in the modern era.
Lol player quality? The nba is deeper because of the international talent but do you want to compare the nba finals teams from last year to any year in the 90s? So Miami and Denver were head and shoulders above finals teams in the 90s i guess right?
Rule changes? They changed it but how many years were offensive players allowed to pump fake and then literally jump straight into the defender and be rewarded with free throws? Players were flopping so much they are now calling a technical foul on players egregiously caught flopping. And coaching quality? Lol what?
zimpy27 wrote:NO-KG-AI wrote:zimpy27 wrote:You'd have to compare to iso efficiency of the time since iso was more efficient back then generally.
Based on what?
Based on it being a more regular move and much less help defense and no zone either.
More suited to isolation play than 00s or later.
NO-KG-AI wrote:Heej wrote:NO-KG-AI wrote:
More teams iso’d in the post Jordan era from a volume standing, but I’ve never seen anything suggesting that iso’s are less efficient now than they were, considering how easy it is to draw fouls and the space.
I’d love to see the efficiency numbers on isos, I’d guess they are more efficient now.
Surely you aren't talking about foul drawing now as if players of this era had it easier than Jordan in the 90s with regards to how refs whistled them? Because that would be hilarious. That man was an outlier among outliers on film when you see the type of ticky tack fouls he got awarded every game. At least 2018 Harden had the skills to bait people, Jordan literally walked into free throws.
And anyone with a cursory understanding of rotations can see how doubles, swarms, and stunts are able to be enacted from shorter distances and are more cleverly disguised in the modern era considering how just the existence of the illegal defense rule (even if it wasn't called every possession) had its own gravitational pull that you can clearly see had 90s players one step closer to their man in their most aggressive help packages compared to now.
But hey, when faced with the possibility of cognitive dissonance I too would simply make an impossible demand like "show me the numbers for all isos in the 90s vs now" instead of considering how rule changes, player quality, and coaching quality have made for a more competitive overall landscape in the modern era.
Yea, I'm talking about the era where we're pushing 50% on 3 point attempts, and dudes just have to pull their head back to get a foul. Not the outlier slashers getting foul calls. Not the guy with a picture of LeBron as his avatar coming to tell us we're all wrong for not thinking poor poor LeBron's era where you can't breath on anyone is soooo hard to draw fouls in :'( I'm the one with cognitive dissonance.
I'm not demanding anything, he came here and said isos are less efficient now than they were. We all know that's not true, you can assign whatever reason you want. We know what your excuse is for why some guys have less success doing it. Lets just not pretend they are less effficient, as opposed to less used. You're going off on some entire tangent about era competitiveness because your brain can't do anything but find a way to make an excuse for LeBron in a thread, it's literally the only time you comment or appear.
KayDee35 wrote:This seems like a cut and dry case of cherry-picking data to fit a narrative. If you fell for it, you need to bone up on your critical thinking skills.
First, MJ is not the god of PPP. That honor belongs to Kiki VanDeWeghe. In addition, Durant, Reggie Millier, Amar'e, and John Collins have a higher single season PPP than MJ. http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/archive/index.php/t-503816.html
Second, MJ was the NBA's golden boy and the refs whistles knew this too. MJ's PPP on an Iso Jumper, Pull up Jumper, and Runners/Leaners was 1.16, 1.07, and 1.03 respectively. Those are solid numbers. But MJ's PPP when he drove to the basket was an insane 1.5! When you give an all-time great finisher one of the all-time friendliest whistles in an era where the rules favor isolations, it's unsurprising to see MJ's PPP being so high. https://old.reddit.com/r/nba/comments/18w8fox/19901992_michael_jordan_shot_chart/
If your BS radar didn't go off for this topic then I you're a prime target for people selling bridges.
ballzboyee wrote:Youtuber JxmyHighroller tracked and then compared Jordan's left hand points per iso efficiency against the league's best iso scorers today while using either hand. Turns out Jordan's iso efficiency with only his left hand is far superior to any player in the league even removing Jordan's dominant hand in the comparison. Jordan's ability to finish with his left hand was basically unparalleled in the history of basketball for a wing iso finsher.
For those who want to watch the video breakdown and analysis. Analysis of Jordan's iso scoring numbers starts at 19m mark for those who do not want to watch whole video.
WhateverBro wrote:ballzboyee wrote:Youtuber JxmyHighroller tracked and then compared Jordan's left hand points per iso efficiency against the league's best iso scorers today while using either hand. Turns out Jordan's iso efficiency with only his left hand is far superior to any player in the league even removing Jordan's dominant hand in the comparison. Jordan's ability to finish with his left hand was basically unparalleled in the history of basketball for a wing iso finsher.
For those who want to watch the video breakdown and analysis. Analysis of Jordan's iso scoring numbers starts at 19m mark for those who do not want to watch whole video.
Unless JxmyHighroller is realgm user Dipper 13, you're wrong. Its also not left handed points per iso, its when he drives left. You might want to look at this thread.
viewtopic.php?t=1286698
ballzboyee wrote:WhateverBro wrote:ballzboyee wrote:Youtuber JxmyHighroller tracked and then compared Jordan's left hand points per iso efficiency against the league's best iso scorers today while using either hand. Turns out Jordan's iso efficiency with only his left hand is far superior to any player in the league even removing Jordan's dominant hand in the comparison. Jordan's ability to finish with his left hand was basically unparalleled in the history of basketball for a wing iso finsher.
For those who want to watch the video breakdown and analysis. Analysis of Jordan's iso scoring numbers starts at 19m mark for those who do not want to watch whole video.
Unless JxmyHighroller is realgm user Dipper 13, you're wrong. Its also not left handed points per iso, its when he drives left. You might want to look at this thread.
viewtopic.php?t=1286698
Even if conceded, your point is just semantics. Obviously, the term "finishing" here is used describe plays in which Jordan used his non-dominant hand primarily to make a move to basket in scoring situation. The other players are judged by the same standard, so this is still a valid comparison. The critique was that Jordan had absolutely no left hand, and this was thrown around loosely in a viral marketing attempt/propaganda piece to imply that Jordan had no bag, no control, or ability with his left hand at all. I am not doing the work for you. I posted a video and made no claims that it was my interpretation of a shot chart. However, anybody who has even watched a single game of Jordan knows that he is one of the most skilled players with either hand either in traffic or in the open court in the history of the game. In fact, for his size he is the absolute peak of skill in this regard. So not only is the criticism not true, it is the opposite of the truth. It's character assassination and slander. All the video does is correct a gross mischaracterization.
Honestly, it is such low basketball IQ take to say Jordan sucks with his left hand that anybody who makes such a claim is blatant trolling and should never be taken seriously, and such a claim is probably not even worth the response. However, since some people apparently do believe such stupid nonsense, you have people like this youtuber creating a serious response to debunk it. I don't really need a bunch of stats to know Jordan was the elite of the elite off the dribble with either hand, but maybe some other basketball fans do.