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art_tatum wrote:

knicksNOTslick wrote:I would argue that the last 3 Finals MVPs in Jokic, Steph and Giannis were a lot more deserving of the Finals MVP award than LeBron since it really was a tie between him and AD. So I would say the 3 of them have had better seasons in the last 6 years.

Giannis, Steph and Jokic's rings are worth more because they were the only superstars on their team. They didn't need an Anthony Davis caliber player as their Robin.

Regardless of the Mickey ring, the lakers also played one of the worst finals team ever bc of all the injuries to the heat players + they didn't have that much talent to begin with, it was just butler willing them to 6 games.


The years after the bubble the lakers failed in the first round and got lucky once into the wcf but got swept.
Imo for a team with supposed 2 top 15 players that's a failure no matter how you put it. Definitely makes the Disney ring look like it's almost a fluke.

The other 5 years the lakers were struggling to make the playoffs and the title year they were the best team in the NBA before the bubble. They shook up their roster after winning a title and it backfired.

It’s more similar to a 2011 Mavs. Team was cooking, won a title and killed everyone on the way, and shook up their roster and killed their competitiveness

Karate Diop wrote:

The Explorer wrote:

Spoiler:

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All this despite picking his teammates and hiring and firing his coaches. He's been pretty much a failure by Laker standards.

Look... at .. his... age...

MJ wasn't doing the type of things Bron is at this age.

People just have unrealistic expectations for Bron.

This. He just can't impose his will like he once could and that's he's getting swept or losing "competitive" gentleman's sweeps. A younger bron could have dropped 45 pts and sprinkled in some chase down blocks here and there. He simply can't do that no more. Props to him for still being a top 20 NBA player and, if he wants to, he can still be a 1st option on a treadmill team like the Hawks or so for another 5 to 8 years and just rack up stats or he settles for a clear robin role moving forward, if he prioritizes winning.

A lot of the guys who predicted his decline would start in the 2013-2014 season when he looked slow in games to start the season are now finally getting their chance to let loose. But, yea, KD, LBJ, Curry, CP3 are no longer the difference makers they once were and that's OK.

Zooming out he has all the individual accolades but the playoff success isn't there outside of 2020. Missing the playoffs twice, and getting eliminated twice in this 6 year span isn't amazing. Individually, he's been all-NBA every year but mostly 3rd team. On top of that, Lebron has been pretty injury prone during this stage of his career, averaging on 58 games per season.

It's still tricky to find players that have had more "success" over this span. Jokic and Giannis are pretty obvious, but then every other player there's a case against them.
- Embiid has played at a way higher level in the regular season but has no playoff success in this span. (and no championship)
- Curry has been just as injured and has also missed the playoffs.
- Kawhi has been better than Lebron when healthy, but that's just too rare.
- Tatum and Jimmy are just short a championship.
- AD it really depends on who you've liked as LA's best player over these past 6 years.
- Luka's another with not enough playoff success.
- Durant has been wandering the wastelands.
- Harden has had peaks and valleys.

I think that's the list to consider. I don't think it's an easy answer but I don't think Lebron's candidacy to be on top of this list is amazing. He's been a top 15 player over this span, and has only been playoff relevant twice. 2020 is a big outlier year in this span, not only for the championship and finals MVP, but because he was 1st-team All-NBA and finished 2nd in MVP voting. He hasn't been inside the top 10 in MVP voting any other season, and it's not like he's compensating with deep playoff runs.

- I'm probably leaning at least Curry. He's been more volatile, but I'll take his championship + another finals run + being higher up in MVP rankings than Bron (he's been 5th, 3rd, 8th, and 9th).
- I think AD is a coin flip
- I think there are really fun arguments for Tatum and Jimmy's playoff success.
- Embiid has been so much better than Lebron but this is a hard comparison.

Less than 8 players.

Definitely Jokic, Giannis

Arguably Doncic, Tatum, Curry, Embiid, Butler?

FarBeyondDriven wrote:the bubble ring is meaningless and doesn't compare to any of the others so pretty much any other star that led his team to a championship in the last six seasons gets more credit for theirs. AD was the best player in those Finals easily. The best he's ever played in fact. A true beast on both ends of the floor and the best player on the floor. He deserved Finals MVP so that FMVP doesn't hold as much weight as the Finals MVPs of the other candidates either. Since that bubble stuff is such a joke it doesn't eclipse the accomplishments of others like MVP and scoring titles. And let's be honest, he didn't deserve all the those all-nba nods either. At least two of them are undeserved. But tbh there aren't that many stars that can compare with the accolades. Even the worst stretch of his career with the Lakers is still better than all but a handful of players.

Jokic (6 all-nba, 6 all-star, 2 MVPs, Finals MVP (earned), Championship)
Giannis (6 all-nba, 6 all-star, 2 MVPs, DPOY, 4 x all-defense, Finals MVP (earned), Championship)
Embiid (4 all-nba, 6 all-star, 1 MVPs, 3 x MVP runner-up, 2 x all-defense. Scoring Title x 2)
Steph (5 all-nba, 5 all-star, Finals MVP (earned), Championship, Scoring Title)
Kawhi (3 all-nba, 4 all-star, Finals MVP (earned), Championship, 3 x all-defense)
Tatum (4 all-nba, 5 all-star, made ECF three times and the Finals)
Butler (3 all-nba, 2 all-star, all-defense once, made ECF x 3 and Finals twice)

Putting Embiid in this list just makes it a joke. If there’s one accomplishment that’s been more roundly mocked than Lebron’s bubble ring it’s Joel’s MVP.

FarBeyondDriven wrote:the bubble ring is meaningless and doesn't compare to any of the others so pretty much any other star that led his team to a championship in the last six seasons gets more credit for theirs. AD was the best player in those Finals easily. The best he's ever played in fact. A true beast on both ends of the floor and the best player on the floor. He deserved Finals MVP so that FMVP doesn't hold as much weight as the Finals MVPs of the other candidates either. Since that bubble stuff is such a joke it doesn't eclipse the accomplishments of others like MVP and scoring titles. And let's be honest, he didn't deserve all the those all-nba nods either. At least two of them are undeserved. But tbh there aren't that many stars that can compare with the accolades. Even the worst stretch of his career with the Lakers is still better than all but a handful of players.

Jokic (6 all-nba, 6 all-star, 2 MVPs, Finals MVP (earned), Championship)
Giannis (6 all-nba, 6 all-star, 2 MVPs, DPOY, 4 x all-defense, Finals MVP (earned), Championship)
Embiid (4 all-nba, 6 all-star, 1 MVPs, 3 x MVP runner-up, 2 x all-defense. Scoring Title x 2)
Steph (5 all-nba, 5 all-star, Finals MVP (earned), Championship, Scoring Title)
Kawhi (3 all-nba, 4 all-star, Finals MVP (earned), Championship, 3 x all-defense)
Tatum (4 all-nba, 5 all-star, made ECF three times and the Finals)
Butler (3 all-nba, 2 all-star, all-defense once, made ECF x 3 and Finals twice)

meaningless to who? I do remember a lot of teams trying real f'n hard to win, wasn't meaningless to them

Jokic
Giannis (6 all-nba, 6 all-star, 2 MVPs, DPOY, 4 x all-defense, Finals MVP (earned), Championship)
Embiid (4 all-nba, 6 all-star, 1 MVPs, 3 x MVP runner-up, 2 x all-defense. Scoring Title x 2)
Steph (5 all-nba, 5 all-star, Finals MVP (earned), Championship, Scoring Title)
Kawhi (3 all-nba, 4 all-star, Finals MVP (earned), Championship, 3 x all-defense)
Tatum (4 all-nba, 5 all-star, made ECF three times and the Finals)
Butler (3 all-nba, 2 all-star, all-defense once, made ECF x 3 and Finals twice)
Davis

we need to start calling the bubble by a more appropriate name. "2020 NBA Postseason Exhibition Tournament" would more accurately describe the atmosphere and stakes in those games

I would say for sure:

1) Jokic - 2 MVPs (maybe a 3rd one this year), a FMVP, a championship, 6 all-star appearances, 3 time all-NBA first team, 2 time all NBA second team.

2) Giannis 2 MVPs, a FMVP, a championship, 6 all-star appearances, 5 time all-NBA first team, 1 all NBA second team, defensive player of the year.

Lebron in no way, shape or form has an argument over Jokic and Giannis the last 6 years.

You can also make an argument for Steph - FMVP, championship, 5 all-star appearances, 2 time all-NBA first team, 2 time all-NBA second team, scoring champion.

Guys like Embiid, Tatum and Luka also have an argument in terms of production, but their lack of consistent playoff success makes it tough to put over Lebron.

Karate Diop wrote:

The Explorer wrote:

Read on Twitter

All this despite picking his teammates and hiring and firing his coaches. He's been pretty much a failure by Laker standards.

Look... at .. his... age...

MJ wasn't doing the type of things Bron is at this age.

People just have unrealistic expectations for Bron.

Yeah MJ wasnt doing this at age 39 (altho he wasnt far off considering he had a trash team and despite that still scored 50+ in one game)

BUT…

1) Scientific advancements in sports medicine and training and maybe even better PED’s for recovery
2) Ever heard of motivation? It’s a thing in sports. MJ was already considered the GOAT in the 90’s. There was really no added motivation for him or any chasing of someone better. Lebron meanwhile has yet to be the consensus GOAT that’s why he has the added motivation and reason to continue on with his career and keep improving both himself and his team for his legacy. He himself alluded to this years prior when he said he is chasing “the ghost” of Michael Jordan.

As for the total career points that one I do give Lebron but it’s much more a testament to his longevity than being the greatest. In Michael’s time total career points didnt really weigh much or else Kareem and Karl Malone would be considered higher than Jordan. Only now has it been viewed as the crowning glory of being the GOAT, and I think part of it is influenced by Klutch and the media who likes to paint Lebron the GOAT for added clicks and debates.

Also, what is Lebron really doing at age 39?? It’s not like he’s going to the Finals. He was almost swept in the 1st round this year. And he’s not even the best player on his own team. Duncan and Kareem won champ at age 38-39 if im not mistaken

The Explorer wrote:

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All this despite picking his teammates and hiring and firing his coaches. He's been pretty much a failure by Laker standards.

Yep especially for the winniest franchise in nba history

If you remove the bubble ring (which gets an asterisk from me) then the list gets a lot more interesting.

Also remaining guys stayed with the franchise that drafted them and didn’t go to other franchises to try to win and stack the deck.

FarBeyondDriven wrote:the bubble ring is meaningless and doesn't compare to any of the others so pretty much any other star that led his team to a championship in the last six seasons gets more credit for theirs. AD was the best player in those Finals easily. The best he's ever played in fact. A true beast on both ends of the floor and the best player on the floor. He deserved Finals MVP so that FMVP doesn't hold as much weight as the Finals MVPs of the other candidates either. Since that bubble stuff is such a joke it doesn't eclipse the accomplishments of others like MVP and scoring titles. And let's be honest, he didn't deserve all the those all-nba nods either. At least two of them are undeserved. But tbh there aren't that many stars that can compare with the accolades. Even the worst stretch of his career with the Lakers is still better than all but a handful of players.

Jokic (6 all-nba, 6 all-star, 2 MVPs, Finals MVP (earned), Championship)
Giannis (6 all-nba, 6 all-star, 2 MVPs, DPOY, 4 x all-defense, Finals MVP (earned), Championship)
Embiid (4 all-nba, 6 all-star, 1 MVPs, 3 x MVP runner-up, 2 x all-defense. Scoring Title x 2)
Steph (5 all-nba, 5 all-star, Finals MVP (earned), Championship, Scoring Title)
Kawhi (3 all-nba, 4 all-star, Finals MVP (earned), Championship, 3 x all-defense)
Tatum (4 all-nba, 5 all-star, made ECF three times and the Finals)
Butler (3 all-nba, 2 all-star, all-defense once, made ECF x 3 and Finals twice)

I am sure Jokic has 3 MVPs