Who's Rep Has Suffered More? Lebron or Wade?

[CB4MiamiHeat]

is this thread a joke?

[Harry_Seaward]

is this thread a joke?

Sadly no.

This is real life.

[CB4MiamiHeat]

bron/wade just combined for 60 points today .. they combined for 70 the game before . .theyre having a great season each on BOTH ends...

heat are top 5 candidate to win it all ... .thats why lebron, wade and bosh teamed up. i guess its all about the way you look at it.

[Shaheen]

Question with no basis.

Lebron.

[Alex Trevelyan]

Chris Bosh is a 6-time All-Star. A member of the U.S. Olympic team. A top 10 player in the league. Horace Grant and Dennis Rodman didn't come close to that, I'm sorry. Both were good players, had specific skill sets, but not nearly as good as Chris Bosh. You're either overating Rodman and Grant, or just never saw Chris Bosh play till this season. The guy had a PER of 25 last year and was a top 5 player for the first half of last season.

I'm not undervaluing Bosh, I know how good he is, unfortunately you're entire premise goes like this LeBron, Wade, Bosh > Jordan, Pippen, Rodman, Kukoc, Harper, Longley, Kerr, or LeBron, Wade, Bosh > Bird, Parish, McHale, DJ, Ainge or LeBron, Wade, Bosh> Isiah, Dumars, Laimbeer, Aguirre, Rodman, Johnson, Mahorn, Edwards, etc or LeBron, Wade, Bosh> Magic, KAJ, Worthy, Scott, McGee, Cooper, Wilkes, McAdoo. It's about the aggregate talent on a roster, not just the guys at the top 3 spots.

That wasn't anywhere near Kareem's prime. He couldn't rebound, protect the rim, or run the fast break anymore in 86. You could probably compare him more to Chris Bosh at that stage of his career. A great offensive player who struggled on the glass and defensively against certain teams. He certainly wasn't an MVP caliber player like Wade at this stage. And I'd be hard pressed to put him in the top 10.

It doesn't need to be near his prime. In 1984-85 season, when KAJ was by any measure, in decline, his PER was 23! I don't need to use PPG, I can use advanced stats and make the same arguments. KAJ on the backside of his career had a PER equivalent to Magic's that year. Dwight Howard's PER LAST YEAR was 24! Stop using that b.s. "in their prime" argument, a guy doesn't have to be in his prime if he's still dominant. KAJ was still putting up 22 and 8 every night. You're familiar with the adage in basketball that a good big is more valuable than a good wing aren't you?

The Lakers definitely had some good players. Worthy turned into a great one, although I don't think he ever hit MVP caliber like Wade. And using PPG as your primary statistic is a bit misleading for an era that was averaging almost 10 points more a game than now. But at no time would I consider Magic playing alongside 2 top 10 players with one being an MVP caliber talent.

Again, what does it matter if he was playing with two top 10 players? He was playing with a much deeper roster. The aggregate talent wasn't better, it was much better. That's the point. Those who criticize LeBron for going to team up with other stars so he didn't have to carry the whole load seem to ignore that other legends of the game have always had the benefit of a roster that they themselves didn't have to carry. I'll give you an example using advanced stats. The 1985 LAL championship squad had 7 players average double-figues in the playoffs. They had 3 players with PERs of at least 20 (Magic, KAJ, Worthy), 1 player with a PER of at least 18 (McGee), 2 players with PERs of 16 (Cooper, Scott) and 2 scrubs (Rambis and McAdoo) with PERs of 14 and 12 respectively. The Heat have a starting C with a PER of 9 and a starting PG with PER of 10 and their top sub, Miller is PER of 10.

That first Bulls team that won a title: MJ had a staggering PER of 32! 5 points better than LeBron! Pippen had a PER of 21. Grant a PER of 18 (Bosh's is currently 19). Cartwright a 12 (3 points better than Dampier) Paxson a PER of 14 (Bibby's is 10). The next year MJ's PER dropped to 27, Pippen's was 22, Grant's was 21! Cartwright was 11, but Perdue was 14. Paxson dropped to 11. Still as an aggregate unit better than the Heat. Whether the team is top heavy with a few superstars in their twenties, or the team is balanced with loads of talent 7 or 8 deep, doesn't matter, the point is LeBron James doesn't have to carry a team, Magic and MJ and Bird didn't have to carry teams. But somehow his critics were insinuating that in order to preserve his legacy LeBron had to essentially win a championship by himself. The fact he got a Cavaliers team who didn't have another player with a PER greater than 18 to the Finals is an accomplishment so extraordinary it boggles the mind how he did it. The Spurs had 3 players with PERs of at least 21.

You're free to argue with yourself as to whether or not any player has ever had the luxury of playing with 2 other players as good as Wade and Bosh in their physical primes. It's not an argument I intended to have, it's irrelevant. I don't know why you've expended so much energy making it. Championships are won by teams. If your team happens to be gifted with 3 superstars, or your team happens to be gifted with 7 guys that average double-figures and do the little things well, it doesn't matter. The point is that no superstar of the past was ever expected to do what LeBron's detractors wanted him to do, which was to do something unprecedented: Win a championship by himself! Other stars have had better rosters top to bottom, so it's not like LeBron is playing with an incomparable cast, but he certainly has enough talent to win it all, so he better, but if he does, I'll praise the man, not try to detract from his accomplishment.

[Googjob]

So you've gone to great lengths to prove that LeBron is inept in public relations? I think we all know that. That's not the point, the point is that those who continue to go on and on about his handling of his free agency are demonizing a guy over an error in how he handled his public persona, that's it, that's the whole show. That's the angst. You're left waiting for the punchline. Please tell me he's done something more than desire a better supporting cast and do a special on where he was going to play.

Did he rape someone? Did he run into the stands and punch a fan? Did he get pulled over for a DUI? It wasn't revealed that he had a serious gambling issue was it? He didn't choke his coach did he? Did he father 26 kids? He didn't bring a gun into the locker room did he? Did he do a Deron Williams and chase his coach off? Was their a brawl on the team plane? Did he smack his wife? Is he a dead beat dad? Does he have a drug problem? Is he another profligate NBA baller on the brink of bankruptcy? No. He's none of those things, in fact by any measure he's one of the better people in the NBA. But he does say stupid things on his Tweeter feed and he did publicly humiliate Cleveland, so his legacy will suffer (at least until his Q rating returns next year.)

No off-court issues for LeBron at all, unless getting sued for not showing at an Atlanta nightclub counts. In fact, even his ill-advised "Decision" benefited a charity to the tune of several hundred thousand dollars. If I could send 500K to Children's Hospital for making a tool of myself on television I would do it without thinking twice. The problem isn't really LeBron, LeBron is who you'd expect a man who was ordained the "chosen one" in the eighth grade to be. The problem are his detractors who have decided to crucify the man, not for being a bad guy or an indifferent player, but for making a bad decision on how he self-advertised. How silly and petty they look for going on and on about something of such profound unimportance. Crucify the man for something of substance. Criticize him for not playing defense or being selfish. Criticize him for bad behavior off-court or being a miserable human being, but to stain a man's reputation for making errors in how he manages his public persona (which was corporate manufactured anyway) is probably what we should expect in an era when getting famous is now the chief industry of a bankrupt nation.

He acted like a huge jerk and attention whore this Summer. People don't like him because of that. We like and dislike players/teams for all sorts of reasons. Some will call what he did minor, some will call it major, it doesn't matter. We don't all have to like the same players and teams.

I don't understand the fascination with some of you that get so upset that other people don't fawn over the same players you do. Is it like some religions where you have to convert others to your side to justify your own beliefs? You like Lebron, you like the Heat, that's cool. You don't need someone else to be on your side to justify that. Who cares if a guy in New York doesn't? And who cares if his reasons for not liking him are not up to your high standards? There are good and bad guys in all sports. Teams we love and teams we hate. It's what makes sports fun. It would be a crappy place if we all had to run out and buy Yankees hats because we aren't allowed to dislike them for just trying real hard to build a winning team. Lebron and the Heat are the bad guys, just as the Piston, Yankees, Patriots and tons of other teams have been viewed that way in the past.

[Googjob]

I'm not undervaluing Bosh, I know how good he is, unfortunately you're entire premise goes like this LeBron, Wade, Bosh > Jordan, Pippen, Rodman, Kukoc, Harper, Longley, Kerr, or LeBron, Wade, Bosh > Bird, Parish, McHale, DJ, Ainge or LeBron, Wade, Bosh> Isiah, Dumars, Laimbeer, Aguirre, Rodman, Johnson, Mahorn, Edwards, etc or LeBron, Wade, Bosh> Magic, KAJ, Worthy, Scott, McGee, Cooper, Wilkes, McAdoo. It's about the aggregate talent on a roster, not just the guys at the top 3 spots.

You are undervaluing Bosh. And you're overating the role players on those teams and undervaluing the role players on the Heat.

It doesn't need to be near his prime. In 1984-85 season, when KAJ was by any measure, in decline, his PER was 23! I don't need to use PPG, I can use advanced stats and make the same arguments. KAJ on the backside of his career had a PER equivalent to Magic's that year. Dwight Howard's PER LAST YEAR was 24! Stop using that b.s. "in their prime" argument, a guy doesn't have to be in his prime if he's still dominant. KAJ was still putting up 22 and 8 every night. You're familiar with the adage in basketball that a good big is more valuable than a good wing aren't you?

And that 23 PER you cite is lower than what any of the Big 3 had last year. Chris Bosh had the lowest last season at 25. Magic only played two season (his first 2) with a player who had over a 25 PER. He never played with anyone who came close to the output of Wade. And never with anyone who had that kind of output with signifigant minutes (Kareem was only playing 30 a night).

Again, what does it matter if he was playing with two top 10 players? He was playing with a much deeper roster. The aggregate talent wasn't better, it was much better. That's the point. Those who criticize LeBron for going to team up with other stars so he didn't have to carry the whole load seem to ignore that other legends of the game have always had the benefit of a roster that they themselves didn't have to carry. I'll give you an example using advanced stats. The 1985 LAL championship squad had 7 players average double-figues in the playoffs. They had 3 players with PERs of at least 20 (Magic, KAJ, Worthy), 1 player with a PER of at least 18 (McGee), 2 players with PERs of 16 (Cooper, Scott) and 2 scrubs (Rambis and McAdoo) with PERs of 14 and 12 respectively. The Heat have a starting C with a PER of 9 and a starting PG with PER of 10 and their top sub, Miller is PER of 10.

That's an extremely small sample size. You are basing Magic Johnson's career supporting cast off of 19 playoff games in one season. You're also assuming the PER of a role player is the same as a starter. Minutes matter when calculating that. McGee played 15 minutes a game.

That first Bulls team that won a title: MJ had a staggering PER of 32! 5 points better than LeBron! Pippen had a PER of 21. Grant a PER of 18 (Bosh's is currently 19). Cartwright a 12 (3 points better than Dampier) Paxson a PER of 14 (Bibby's is 10). The next year MJ's PER dropped to 27, Pippen's was 22, Grant's was 21! Cartwright was 11, but Perdue was 14. Paxson dropped to 11. Still as an aggregate unit better than the Heat. Whether the team is top heavy with a few superstars in their twenties, or the team is balanced with loads of talent 7 or 8 deep, doesn't matter, the point is LeBron James doesn't have to carry a team, Magic and MJ and Bird didn't have to carry teams. But somehow his critics were insinuating that in order to preserve his legacy LeBron had to essentially win a championship by himself. The fact he got a Cavaliers team who didn't have another player with a PER greater than 18 to the Finals is an accomplishment so extraordinary it boggles the mind how he did it. The Spurs had 3 players with PERs of at least 21.

And Jordan's last title team had a starting lineup with a cumulative PER lower than Lebron's Cavs squad. You're putting far too much emphasis on role players. Will Perdue barely played 10 minutes a night. Paxson and Cartwright weren't playing 30 minutes a night. I'm sorry, while important, they aren't anywhere near as important as a guy who can perform at a high level and play 40 minutes a night. Wade trumps any PER Pippen put up. And the only reason Grant is remotely close to Bosh is because Bosh is playing alongside two high usage players. Grant was nowhere near as skilled as Bosh is. To compare the two is just ludicrous. There is no scenario where Horace Grant could do what Chris Bosh did the previous year in Toronto.

You're free to argue with yourself as to whether or not any player has ever had the luxury of playing with 2 other players as good as Wade and Bosh in their physical primes. It's not an argument I intended to have, it's irrelevant. I don't know why you've expended so much energy making it. Championships are won by teams. If your team happens to be gifted with 3 superstars, or your team happens to be gifted with 7 guys that average double-figures and do the little things well, it doesn't matter. The point is that no superstar of the past was ever expected to do what LeBron's detractors wanted him to do, which was to do something unprecedented: Win a championship by himself! Other stars have had better rosters top to bottom, so it's not like LeBron is playing with an incomparable cast, but he certainly has enough talent to win it all, so he better, but if he does, I'll praise the man, not try to detract from his accomplishment.

I don't think I ever blamed him for not winning in Cleveland. I think that team is vastly underated and was built perfectly for him. That is clear by the fact that they finished with a substantially better record than this year's Heat squad.

All I'm saying is that he has a ton of talent. A team that has 3 of the top 10 player in the NBA in their prime. There are no more excuses. No more blaming role players or guys off the bench playign 10 minutes a night. He has more talent at his disposal than anyone in the league. If he doesn't win with this, it's on him and on his legacy.

[k-SkiLLz]

u guys really love LBJ, Wade and Heat Team eh ?

ROFLOL