What happened to Steve Francis?

[Elden Payton]

Steve Francis will forever be a what if, Once his athleticism went it seems so did his mind.

[BH8]

What is wrong with you people? Steve Francis was an incredible talent and a freak athlete. He declined because he had chronic cartilage problems that took away his explosiveness and his ability to create space for his jumpshot. It has nothing to do with work ethic or partying.

The same thing happened to Brandon Roy (and to a lesser degree to Chris Paul and Kobe Bryant) and will happen to any NBA guard who suffers from the same infliction. Yes, it could happen to Westbrook or Rose is they have cartilage problems (if I remember correctly - Rose already suffers from knee tendinitis).

[BH8]

Yeah and for his career, his 47% shooting... pretty crappy as an inefficent scorcer.

Come on. His "career" is 3 years old. He shot 44.5% in his "MVP" season. Derrick Rose is a great player, but I'm sure you're not trying to contend that he's an efficient scorer, are you?

[ManualRam]

What is wrong with you people? Steve Francis was an incredible talent and a freak athlete. He declined because he had chronic cartilage problems that took away his explosiveness and his ability to create space for his jumpshot. It has nothing to do with work ethic or partying.

The same thing happened to Brandon Roy (and to a lesser degree to Chris Paul and Kobe Bryant) and will happen to any NBA guard who suffers from the same infliction. Yes, it could happen to Westbrook or Rose is they have cartilage problems (if I remember correctly - Rose already suffers from knee tendinitis).

nobody denied his talent and athleticism. he just played a stupid brand of basketball and couldnt adjust to a smaller role once his athleticism declined.
and yes, he partied a lot and he did not have a good work ethic.

[BH8]

nobody denied his talent and athleticism. he just played a stupid brand of basketball and couldnt adjust to a smaller role once his athleticism declined.
and yes, he partied a lot and he did not have a good work ethic.

Does Brandon Roy party a lot and have a bad work ethic? If Francis doesn't have knee problems, he remains a 20/7 guy for 4 more years.

I don't think Francis' style of play is any "dumber" than guys like Westbrook and Rose. How many times do you see these guys barrel into the paint, going 1 on 5? why are they "smart" doing it while Francis was "dumb" doing the exact same thing? So yeah, if these guys lose their lift and explosiveness, they become just as effective as Francis was in his second stint at Huston regardless on of their "great work ethic".

[ManualRam]

nobody denied his talent and athleticism. he just played a stupid brand of basketball and couldnt adjust to a smaller role once his athleticism declined.
and yes, he partied a lot and he did not have a good work ethic.

Does Brandon Roy party a lot and have a bad work ethic? If Francis doesn't have knee problems, he remains a 20/7 guy for 4 more years.

I don't think Francis' style of play is any "dumber" than guys like Westbrook and Rose. How many times do you see these guys barrel into the paint, going 1 on 5? why are they "smart" doing it while Francis was "dumb" doing the exact same thing? So yeah, if these guys lose their lift and explosiveness, they become just as effective as Francis was in his second stint at Huston regardless on of their "great work ethic".

i wouldnt know if roy likes to party, but he does have a good work ethic. he had to have a good work ethic because he wasnt blessed with the physical ability that other stars had. if francis didnt have a knee problem he'd still be gradually marginalized by coaches who wouldnt allow him to pound the rock like he did or think his style of play doesnt lead to wins. i also dont think francis was injured to the degree that roy is. the way roy moves, he should be retired, yet when he can play he's still able to have SOME type of impact on the game because of his ability to hit jump shots and play make. francis with a lesser injury just became a sht player because he had no clue how to play without the ball in his hands all the time, didnt know how to fit into a structured environment and he couldnt shoot.

i dunno if you're just biased, but francis played an awful brand of basketball. he played with the ball way too much. he'd cross over people just to cross them over again..then cross over again, often times eventually settling on a contested J. he'd pound the rock into the ground, chewing up the clock and turned his teammates (except for mobley) into ball watchers. he even managed to marginalized yao ming.

neither westbrook or rose play like francis. their games are much more streamlined. they're quick-change-of-direction-go, decisive players who's style fits much better in team game because they dont chew up the clock. westbrook is prone to erratic play, and he does make some dumb decisions, but not to the degree of francis. francis was a glorified streetballer who's style typified the worst era in the history of basketball.

[BH8]

i wouldnt know if roy likes to party, but he does have a good work ethic. he had to have a good work ethic because he wasnt blessed with the physical ability taht other stars had. if francis didnt have a knee problem he'd still be gradually marginalized by coaches who wouldnt allow him to pound the rock like he did or think his style of play doesnt lead to wins. i also dont think francis was injured to the degree that roy is. the way roy moves, he should be retired, yet when can play he's still able to have SOME type of impact on the game because of his ability to hit jump shots and play make. francis with a lesser injury just became a sht player because he had no clue how to play without the ball in his hands all the time, didnt know how to fit into a structured environment and he couldnt shoot.

i dunno if you're just biased, but francis played an awful brand of basketball. he played with the ball way too much. he'd cross over people just to cross them over again..then cross over again, often times eventually settling on a contested J. he'd pound the rock into the ground, chewing up the clock and turned his teammates (except for mobley) into ball watchers. he even managed to marginalized yao ming.

neither westbrook or rose play like francis. their games are much more streamlined. they're quick-change-of-direction-go, decisive players who's style fits much better in team game becasue they dont chew up the clock. westbrook is prone to erratic play, and he does make some dumb decisions, but not to the degree of francis. francis was a glorified streetballer who's style typified the worst era in the history of basketball.

Francis declined due to a degenerative knee condition, similar to what Roy suffers from. I don't know the severity of the condition, but I do know that Francis became a shell of the player he was due to that condition.

I won't argue the point that Francis may have been more of a "street baller" than Rose/Westbrook, but that still doesn't invalidate may point - All three of these guys rely on their ability to go 1 on 5 and finish in traffic. Given a similar cartilage condition, Westbrook/Rose would become just as effective as Francis was in Houston.

Steve Francis didn't become ineffective due to him being "dumb" or a "street baller". He became ineffective for no other reason than his knee condition.

[ManualRam]

i wouldnt know if roy likes to party, but he does have a good work ethic. he had to have a good work ethic because he wasnt blessed with the physical ability taht other stars had. if francis didnt have a knee problem he'd still be gradually marginalized by coaches who wouldnt allow him to pound the rock like he did or think his style of play doesnt lead to wins. i also dont think francis was injured to the degree that roy is. the way roy moves, he should be retired, yet when can play he's still able to have SOME type of impact on the game because of his ability to hit jump shots and play make. francis with a lesser injury just became a sht player because he had no clue how to play without the ball in his hands all the time, didnt know how to fit into a structured environment and he couldnt shoot.

i dunno if you're just biased, but francis played an awful brand of basketball. he played with the ball way too much. he'd cross over people just to cross them over again..then cross over again, often times eventually settling on a contested J. he'd pound the rock into the ground, chewing up the clock and turned his teammates (except for mobley) into ball watchers. he even managed to marginalized yao ming.

neither westbrook or rose play like francis. their games are much more streamlined. they're quick-change-of-direction-go, decisive players who's style fits much better in team game becasue they dont chew up the clock. westbrook is prone to erratic play, and he does make some dumb decisions, but not to the degree of francis. francis was a glorified streetballer who's style typified the worst era in the history of basketball.

Francis declined due to a degenerative knee condition, similar to what Roy suffers from. I don't know the severity of the condition, but I do know that Francis became a shell of the player he was due to that condition.

I won't argue the point that Francis may have been more of a "street baller" than Rose/Westbrook, but that still doesn't invalidate may point - All three of these guys rely on their ability to go 1 on 5 and finish in traffic. Given a similar cartilage condition, Westbrook/Rose would become just as effective as Francis was in Houston.

Steve Francis didn't become ineffective due to him being "dumb" or a "street baller". He became ineffective for no other reason than his knee condition.

obviously i disagree. francis had no idea how to play when he wasnt "the man." that's why he was completely neutered under larry brown. he tried to play the "right way" but he had no idea what to do. he passed when he was supposed to shoot, shot when he was supposed to pass. he had no idea how to make the simple play. both he and marbury were a mess because they couldnt comprehend and execute fundamental, team basketball. good basketball players learn to adjust, even as injuries start to set in.

[BH8]

obviously i disagree. francis had no idea how to play when he wasnt "the man." that's why he was completely neutered under larry brown. he tried to play the "right way" but he had no idea what to do. he passed when he was supposed to shoot, shot when he was supposed to pass. he had no idea how to make the simple play. both he and marbury were a mess because they couldnt comprehend and execute fundamental, team basketball. good basketball players learn to adjust, even as injuries start to set in.

Name one player that was able to "adjust" to playing without knee cartilage? Was Penny Hardaway also a "stupid" player?

Guys like Francis, Iverson, and today's Westbrook/Rose are always considered great when they are healthy and in their athletic prime, but once they lose a step, suddenly everybody realizes that it's "dumb" basketball to barrel into the lane and shoot contested jumpers.

Blaming the coach or "system" is BS. All these guys rely on their freak athleticism and without it, none of them have no place in the NBA under any system.

[mid-post]

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t3iHSs5o4XI&feature=related[/youtube]

Rose is better than Francis but Francis was easily the more entertaining player...

orly.
[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SZPXZkBadPw[/youtube]

[BH8]

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t3iHSs5o4XI&feature=related[/youtube]

Rose is better than Francis but Francis was easily the more entertaining player...

orly.
[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SZPXZkBadPw[/youtube]

Come on. You're comparing a 31 YO Francis to a 21 YO Rose? I will be absolutely shocked if Derrick Rose plays in the NBA when he's 31. that would be incredible.

[MIK AGER]

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t3iHSs5o4XI&feature=related[/youtube]

Rose is better than Francis but Francis was easily the more entertaining player...

orly.
[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SZPXZkBadPw[/youtube]

Yeah really. It's not even debatable for all the hype people give Rose and his handles he couldn't hold a handle to Francis' handles, similarly for all the talk about Rose's dunks Stevie's had more flash / were more spectacular.

Francis played to the crowd, Rose doesn't.

I think Rose is better than prime Franchise but there's nothing wrong with admitting that Francis in his prime was an elite level entertainer.

[ManualRam]

obviously i disagree. francis had no idea how to play when he wasnt "the man." that's why he was completely neutered under larry brown. he tried to play the "right way" but he had no idea what to do. he passed when he was supposed to shoot, shot when he was supposed to pass. he had no idea how to make the simple play. both he and marbury were a mess because they couldnt comprehend and execute fundamental, team basketball. good basketball players learn to adjust, even as injuries start to set in.

Name one player that was able to "adjust" to playing without knee cartilage? Was Penny Hardaway also a "stupid" player?

Guys like Francis, Iverson, and today's Westbrook/Rose are always considered great when they are healthy and in their athletic prime, but once they lose a step, suddenly everybody realizes that it's "dumb" basketball to barrel into the lane and shoot contested jumpers.

Blaming the coach or "system" is BS. All these guys rely on their freak athleticism and without it, none of them have no place in the NBA under any system.

uh brandon roy? also, link me to an article that details the extent of francis' knee injuries. no cartilage? i dont remember hearing anything about that. his knee injuries werent near the extent of brandon's.


good players with good skills can still adjust and be productive players. francis was a dumb player who only knew how to play with the ball in his hands so he fell completely off the map when he wasnt able to do so. his downfall started after rudy T, who let him do whatever the hell he wanted to do with the ball. same goes for his one yr under johnny davis, who was as incompetent a coach as you can get in the NBA. put him under a more demanding coach like a JVG, larry brown or even brian hill and his game suffered because he was clueless. i never thought he was that good even when he was putting up numbers. he was a losing basketball player who played a losing style that was only conducive to putting up good individual numbers.

[Blame Rasho]

Yeah and for his career, his 47% shooting... pretty crappy as an inefficent scorcer.

Come on. His "career" is 3 years old. He shot 44.5% in his "MVP" season. Derrick Rose is a great player, but I'm sure you're not trying to contend that he's an efficient scorer, are you?

Which just as better as all but one of Francis season...while scoring at a 25 ppg.

He has been among the most efficient scoring point guards( there are no less than a handful of point guards that are more efficient and none can match his rate) since he has been in the NBA unlike Francis who was a mindless chucker.

I mean at some point doesn't common sense click in, or are you seriously going to mindlessly repute that Rose is the same type of player like Francis.

[Blame Rasho]

obviously i disagree. francis had no idea how to play when he wasnt "the man." that's why he was completely neutered under larry brown. he tried to play the "right way" but he had no idea what to do. he passed when he was supposed to shoot, shot when he was supposed to pass. he had no idea how to make the simple play. both he and marbury were a mess because they couldnt comprehend and execute fundamental, team basketball. good basketball players learn to adjust, even as injuries start to set in.

Name one player that was able to "adjust" to playing without knee cartilage? Was Penny Hardaway also a "stupid" player?

Guys like Francis, Iverson, and today's Westbrook/Rose are always considered great when they are healthy and in their athletic prime, but once they lose a step, suddenly everybody realizes that it's "dumb" basketball to barrel into the lane and shoot contested jumpers.

Blaming the coach or "system" is BS. All these guys rely on their freak athleticism and without it, none of them have no place in the NBA under any system.

good players with good skills can still adjust and be productive players. francis was a dumb player who only knew how to play with the ball in his hands so he fell completely off the map when he wasnt able to do so. his downfall started after rudy T, who let him do whatever the hell he wanted to do with the ball. same goes for his one yr under johnny davis, who was as incompetent a coach as you can get in the NBA. put him under a more demanding coach like a JVG, larry brown or even brian hill and his game suffered because he was clueless. i never thought he was that good even when he was putting up numbers. he was a losing basketball player who played a losing style that was only conducive to putting up good individual numbers.

I remember that he once ran out the game clock and lost a game vs the Spurs. He was totally unaware that he needed to put up a shot when they were down by a basket.

[BH8]

I mean at some point doesn't common sense click in, or are you seriously going to mindlessly repute that Rose is the same type of player like Francis.

Would never claim Rose is the same player as Francis. He's clearly (much) better, but in no way,shape or form is Rose an efficient scorer. Michael Jordan was an efficient scorer. Magic Johnson was an efficient scorer, John Stockton was an efficient scorer, Lebron James is an efficient scorer. Dwayne Wade is an efficient scorer. Derrick Rose is not an efficient scorer.

In any case, my point was that Derrick Rose (or Westbrook for that matter) with a degenerative knee condition would be just as efficient as Francis was in Houston and all his 1 on 5 barreling into the lane which looks like brilliant basketball right now would be labeled "dumb" and "selfish".

[knicksosmoove]

I don't get why Derrick Rose gets called inefficient so much. He isn't a GOD like Kevin Durant, but he is pretty good if you go past FG%. He had a 55% TS% which is very good for a player with his particular game considering he also creates all the looks for his teammates as well. He prolly turned the ball over a bit too much though.

[Camacho]

I mean at some point doesn't common sense click in, or are you seriously going to mindlessly repute that Rose is the same type of player like Francis.

Would never claim Rose is the same player as Francis. He's clearly (much) better, but in no way,shape or form is Rose an efficient scorer. Michael Jordan was an efficient scorer. Magic Johnson was an efficient scorer, John Stockton was an efficient scorer, Lebron James is an efficient scorer. Dwayne Wade is an efficient scorer. Derrick Rose is not an efficient scorer.

In any case, my point was that Derrick Rose (or Westbrook for that matter) with a degenerative knee condition would be just as efficient as Francis was in Houston and all his 1 on 5 barreling into the lane which looks like brilliant basketball right now would be labeled "dumb" and "selfish".

First, earlier in this thread you put quotation marks around MVP, indicating that you believe Rose is not the MVP. Guess what buddy, he did win the MVP award.

Next, this is the second thread where I came into and you basically say a Bulls player sucks. This is a Stevie Franchise thread, why the constant need to bring up Rose? Who clearly had a great MVP winning, who led his team to the best record in the league.

[BH8]

First, earlier in this thread you put quotation marks around MVP, indicating that you believe Rose is not the MVP. Guess what buddy, he did win the MVP award.

Next, this is the second thread where I came into and you basically say a Bulls player sucks. This is a Stevie Franchise thread, why the constant need to bring up Rose? Who clearly had a great MVP winning, who led his team to the best record in the league.

It's not about Rose (or Westbrook or Marbury or Iverson). This is about Steve Francis declining due to a degenerative knee condition and this is about (almost) any player with the same condition becoming ineffective in this league, particularly when the player relies on explosiveness and athleticism.

There seems to be a pattern where fans label players as "great" for barreling into the lane and being able to finish when they're at their peak athletic ability, but once they lose a step and are unable to finish at the same rate, they are suddenly labeled as "dumb chuckers" for doing the exact same things. How many of the current "greats" (i.e. Westbrook, Rose, etc.) will be labeled "dumb", "selfish", "chuckers" (i.e. Iverson. Marbury, etc.) 5-7 years from today?

P.S. Regarding your point about Bulls players? are you talking about Taj Gibson? are you f'ing kidding me? What has he done in this league to warrant a thread in the GB? players like Gibson a a dime a dozen in the draft. If it makes you feel better, I also said the Michael Beasley needs to get off drugs to become anything in this league and to the best of my knowledge, he's not a Bulls player yet. To borrow from KG - a nobody is a nobody regardless of what jersey they wear.

[Winsome Gerbil]

obviously i disagree. francis had no idea how to play when he wasnt "the man." that's why he was completely neutered under larry brown. he tried to play the "right way" but he had no idea what to do. he passed when he was supposed to shoot, shot when he was supposed to pass. he had no idea how to make the simple play. both he and marbury were a mess because they couldnt comprehend and execute fundamental, team basketball. good basketball players learn to adjust, even as injuries start to set in.

This could be said about most star players though. They are all used to playing with the ball. In fact playing with the ball is the very reason they are special in the first place. Ask a star player to back off and become a role guy, and 90% of them turn into pumpkins. It was what happened to LeBron just a few months ago. It was what happened to Bosh for the entire year. Arenas, Vince, all the aging guys liek A.I., TMac, post knee Webber, just whoever. Once you take the ball out of their hands, you would be better off with aroleplayer comforable in that role than a guy who uised to be a star. Also BTW why I think our Dream Teams have always been badly miscontructed. Bunch of stars stacked up without the ball.

Team all that with the loss of the athleticism which had allowed him to do special things in Francis's case, and the result was inevitable.