Is Kobe Bryant Underrated, Overrated, Or Rated Just Right

[ImissJordan]

What further inspection did these people do but read the boxscore? You're telling me that all these people rewatched the game and did an extensive analysis?

It was a disaster for someone of HIS STANDARDS. He's not being held to the standard of someone like Dirk, Lebron, Malone, Robinson, or Ewing. He's being held to the standard of someone like Jordan, Magic, Bird, Hakeem, Shaq, Duncan, etc.

I'm not holding him to that standard. And even then, for the umpteenth time now, Duncan shot 10-27 in his only Game Seven. Just because he doesn't get compared to Jordan doesn't mean his horrendous shooting (as a big man, to boot) should be swept under the rug completely. You've already agreed that the only reason Kobe's wasn't is because some of his uneducated fans compare his 'greatness' to Michael Jordan et al.

I did expect more from him and was frustrated with his shot selection (specifically, in the first half), but as the Lakers rallied from behind and Bryant appeared to be making smarter decisions with the ball, I didn't give a sh*t about his shooting woes.

Well I would never go as far to say he was a liability. Saying he wasn't playing up to his hype isn't saying that. I mean, they wouldn't have been better off WITHOUT HIM. I can't think of any series where that would be the case with a superstar except maybe this past one with Lebron.

You said before that "he wasn't playing that great in Games 1-6, which would have discounted how bad he was in Game Seven" or something to that effect. I showed you that he DID play well in Games 1-6 and that his Game Seven wasn't the liability that you are suggesting it was. Don't shrug it off now and say he didn't play up to the "hype" of a Magic Johnson or Michael Jordan. Nobody is calling it his tour de force.

And you're right, Kobe didn't score 8 points in a pivotal game (like LeBron). He led both teams in scoring and finished second in rebounding.

It is. You're basically giving the guy the credit cause he passed the ball Kobe even put his hands up while the ball was in the air probably thinking wtf was he doing. And I'm not even blaming him cause everyone thought that.

I credit him for not hoisting up a shot in a situation where Kobe Bryant would be expected to: Game Seven of the NBA Finals, Lakers vs. Celtics, game in the balance, etc. I'm not saying he expected Ron to shoot or spoonfed him, I'm just saying he recognized his shot wasn't falling and swung the ball which did eventually lead to a crucial basket, which doesn't have to impress you.

I say you're excusing him, and then you say you are not. So why are you even arguing about this?

Because I'm not EXCUSING his shooting. I'm not saying, "it's okay that he shot poorly!" I'm saying that he found other ways to be effective whereas people like you will look solely at his field goal percentage and nothing else.

Like I said, Dirk and Duncan aren't as hyped and defended by there fans and the media nearly as much as Kobe is. Dirk's 9/27 doesn't catch much flack cause before that series everyone thought he was a huge choker. On the other hand, Kobe is thought of as one of the most clutch players ever. So yes, it is much more of an embarrassment.

Don't you see how ridiculous this argument is? You're essentially saying that because Dirk has failed repeatedly, he gets a pass for shooting 9-27 because he finally won. But Kobe, with all of his championship-prowess and experience and accolades, embarrassed himself because he shot the ball poorly in a situation where even YOU expected greatness from him.

Clutch isn't necessarily hitting the game-winning shot.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L-lfRqkz ... re=related

The game was tied at 64 apiece with less than six minutes left in the fourth quarter and Kobe crashed the defensive glass for a rebound, drew a foul in the process, and then sunk both free throws to give his team a lead for the first time in the second half. He then grabs his 13th rebound of the game, brings the ball downcourt and drills a mid-range jumper to give them their largest lead of the game.

Pierce then misses a wide-open look from three and Kobe grabs his 14th rebound, brings it up court and hands it off to Pau who is able to get to the free-throw line (yes, that has nothing to do with Bryant) before Allen misses a runner and Kobe grabs his 15th rebound of the game. He misses a shot at the other end, Pierce coolly knocks down a jumpshot and Bryant responds attacking the basket, nearly crowning Pierce - earning another trip to the line where he knocks down 1/2. He then finds Pau cutting to the basket down low, handing it off to him before Gasol goes up and gets hacked.

This was a critical stretch and ultimately a run that propelled the Lakers to victory.

Finally, He DID draw a double team before finding Artest fairly open on the wing, who then jabsteps his closeout man (Pierce) before sinking a three. In the final minute, he fouls out Rasheed Wallace and makes the game-winning free throws.

Sorry for all the play-by-play here, but Bryant was pretty damn clutch when it mattered most. It may not have mirrored his fourth quarter against Phoenix where he was making impossible shot after impossible shot, but his fingerprints were all over those final six minutes.

Did he shoot 6-24? Yes, he did. Could he have made better decisions? Yes, he could have. But he found a way to help his team win, and great players do that. It was a collective effort, a team effort, and without them Bryant would not have succeeded.

But it wasn't an embarrassment. He left that for LeBron James, who didn't even want to shoot the ball.

[Jordan23Forever]

Because I feel like many base the majority of their posted thoughts on fg%, I want to give you an example of a series where common wisdom is that he played badly because of a series FG%, and then ask if you feel the assessment is still fair.

2001 vs the Sixers

In this series, Kobe shot 41% averaged through the 5 games. According to realgm criteria this is, of course, abysmal and indicative of subpar peformance. But I think if you go game-by-game you get a different picture.

Game 1: Kobe's worst game, incidentally the one they lost. He scored 17 on a TS% of 33%, with 5 assists, 3 rebounds, and only shot 1 free throw. Horrible game, and probably killed his average in some respect.

Next 4 games (wins)

Game 2: 31 points on TS% of 58%, 8 rebounds, 6 assists, with 2 steals and 2 blocks.

Game 3: 32 points on TS% of 49%, 6 rebounds, 3 assists, and 2 steals.

Game 4: 19 points on TS% of 52%, 10 rebounds, 9 assists, 1 steal and 1 block.

Game 5: 26 points on TS% of 57%, 12 rebounds, 6 assists, 1 steal and 1 block.

While defending Iverson for long stretches, and the last two games being blowouts. Outside of game 1, his series averages were 27/9/6/2 on 54% TS.

Not really so bad, right?

Yet ALL anyone posts in reference to this series is "41% FG". Thus, he played like ****.

Does this seem like a fair and accurate way to assess how players have played? Am I crazy for thinking that condensing an entire series into one solitary statistic is deceptive and a little lazy?

Can we likewise remove the worst game of every playoff series for all other great players when evaluating their performances in playoff series?

[Sedale Threatt]

Even better, how about we don't judge an entire playoff series based on one game?

[picc]

If you can prove that game was a substantial outlier from the rest of the series, and it brought his average down to the point that its "proven" he had a bad series altogether simply by posting the averaged FG%, then sure, I don't see why not.

Providing its under similar circumstances, it would actually be more intellectually honest to do so. Nobody thought Kobe had a bad finals afterward, its only years later that stat warriors posit he must have since the cumulative FG% is subpar, nevermind everything else. So yeah, knock yourself out JORDAN23forever.

[guy1]

What further inspection did these people do but read the boxscore? You're telling me that all these people rewatched the game and did an extensive analysis?

It was a disaster for someone of HIS STANDARDS. He's not being held to the standard of someone like Dirk, Lebron, Malone, Robinson, or Ewing. He's being held to the standard of someone like Jordan, Magic, Bird, Hakeem, Shaq, Duncan, etc.

I'm not holding him to that standard. And even then, for the umpteenth time now, Duncan shot 10-27 in his only Game Seven. Just because he doesn't get compared to Jordan doesn't mean his horrendous shooting (as a big man, to boot) should be swept under the rug completely. You've already agreed that the only reason Kobe's wasn't is because some of his uneducated fans compare his 'greatness' to Michael Jordan et al.

I did expect more from him and was frustrated with his shot selection (specifically, in the first half), but as the Lakers rallied from behind and Bryant appeared to be making smarter decisions with the ball, I didn't give a sh*t about his shooting woes.

Okay you are not. But the topic is about if Kobe is overrated or not. Not “does IMISSJORDAN overrate Kobe or not?” The media and most of his fans hold him to a much higher standard than you do apparently. And when he doesn’t do meet that standard, which he hasn’t many times, that means he’s OVERRATED.

And I’ve said numerous times now that Duncan doesn’t get this criticism that much for his game 7 because NO ONE CARES ABOUT DUNCAN. No one cites Duncan as the GOAT. He’s not brought up in almost every topic here. The media freely admits that they don’t care to talk about him cause he’s boring. No one brings up that game 7 and cites it as evidence to his greatness because it was bad.

Well I would never go as far to say he was a liability. Saying he wasn't playing up to his hype isn't saying that. I mean, they wouldn't have been better off WITHOUT HIM. I can't think of any series where that would be the case with a superstar except maybe this past one with Lebron.

You said before that "he wasn't playing that great in Games 1-6, which would have discounted how bad he was in Game Seven" or something to that effect. I showed you that he DID play well in Games 1-6 and that his Game Seven wasn't the liability that you are suggesting it was. Don't shrug it off now and say he didn't play up to the "hype" of a Magic Johnson or Michael Jordan. Nobody is calling it his tour de force.

And you're right, Kobe didn't score 8 points in a pivotal game (like LeBron). He led both teams in scoring and finished second in rebounding.

Where did I ever say or suggest his game 7 was a LIABILITY? Bad game does not equal liability. He’s only a liability if the Lakers would’ve been better off without him in that game. I’ve never suggested that. I’m saying his performance in the first 6 games doesn’t discount how bad his game 7 was. For example, if he had the 6 game run that Jordan had in the 92, 93, and 97 Finals, then had that game 7, then it would.

I understand that no one is saying he played up to the hype of Magic or Jordan. The problem is HE RARELY EVER HAS in the Finals, yet he’s constantly hyped up that way and given his performance and importance of this game, it’s the most glaring example.

It is. You're basically giving the guy the credit cause he passed the ball Kobe even put his hands up while the ball was in the air probably thinking wtf was he doing. And I'm not even blaming him cause everyone thought that.

I credit him for not hoisting up a shot in a situation where Kobe Bryant would be expected to: Game Seven of the NBA Finals, Lakers vs. Celtics, game in the balance, etc. I'm not saying he expected Ron to shoot or spoonfed him, I'm just saying he recognized his shot wasn't falling and swung the ball which did eventually lead to a crucial basket, which doesn't have to impress you.

Sorry it doesn’t. It was the end of the game but not as late as you’re suggesting. A superstar passing up the ball with over a minute left and a 3-point lead isn’t something some uncommon thing for a superstar to do. You really sound like you’re just reaching for anything to give him credit for.

I say you're excusing him, and then you say you are not. So why are you even arguing about this?

Because I'm not EXCUSING his shooting. I'm not saying, "it's okay that he shot poorly!" I'm saying that he found other ways to be effective whereas people like you will look solely at his field goal percentage and nothing else.

I don’t look solely at FG%. I look at the game. It had a huge negative impact on the game and his contribution in other areas didn’t make up for that and make it an overall good game.

Like I said, Dirk and Duncan aren't as hyped and defended by there fans and the media nearly as much as Kobe is. Dirk's 9/27 doesn't catch much flack cause before that series everyone thought he was a huge choker. On the other hand, Kobe is thought of as one of the most clutch players ever. So yes, it is much more of an embarrassment.

Don't you see how ridiculous this argument is? You're essentially saying that because Dirk has failed repeatedly, he gets a pass for shooting 9-27 because he finally won. But Kobe, with all of his championship-prowess and experience and accolades, embarrassed himself because he shot the ball poorly in a situation where even YOU expected greatness from him.

What do you not get? I’m not giving him a pass. I’m not even trying to explain to you my perspective, but the overall perspective from fans and the media and why Dirk doesn’t get killed for his performance but Kobe does. The reason no one harps on Dirk’s performance is at that point in the Finals, no one had expected Dirk to have had that great of a playoff performance in the first place. Mainly because of his past where he had massive chokes. Dirk wasn’t even considered a top 5 player in the league before the playoffs. Dirk probably wasn’t even considered a top 25 player of all-time before the Finals. Hell, he still isn’t by a lot of people. But if people were calling him top 10 or GOAT, and comparing him to Jordan, Magic, and Bird, then he had that performance, he would’ve definitely been killed for it.

On the other hand, Kobe’s been put on that pedestal. He’s held to much higher standards then Dirk. It’s not really his fault, but the media and many of his crazy fans. That’s why he gets killed for it when he doesn’t perform up to par. The topic is about if Kobe is overrated or not, so its about does his overall play match up to his rep and hype. So bringing up Dirk and his performance isn’t really an apples to apples comparison, considering no one has really hyped up Dirk that much until recently.

And I actually was not expecting greatness from him. I remember ESPN and everyone predicting that the Lakers would win with the main reason being Kobe. I didn’t buy that at all cause I’ve heard it before and I didn’t really feel like he was having that great of a series in the first place. I felt he was more likely to have a bad game then a good game. I still wasn’t sure who was going to win the game though. So my expectations weren’t that off.

Clutch isn't necessarily hitting the game-winning shot.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L-lfRqkz ... re=related

The game was tied at 64 apiece with less than six minutes left in the fourth quarter and Kobe crashed the defensive glass for a rebound, drew a foul in the process, and then sunk both free throws to give his team a lead for the first time in the second half. He then grabs his 13th rebound of the game, brings the ball downcourt and drills a mid-range jumper to give them their largest lead of the game.

Pierce then misses a wide-open look from three and Kobe grabs his 14th rebound, brings it up court and hands it off to Pau who is able to get to the free-throw line (yes, that has nothing to do with Bryant) before Allen misses a runner and Kobe grabs his 15th rebound of the game. He misses a shot at the other end, Pierce coolly knocks down a jumpshot and Bryant responds attacking the basket, nearly crowning Pierce - earning another trip to the line where he knocks down 1/2. He then finds Pau cutting to the basket down low, handing it off to him before Gasol goes up and gets hacked.

This was a critical stretch and ultimately a run that propelled the Lakers to victory.

Finally, He DID draw a double team before finding Artest fairly open on the wing, who then jabsteps his closeout man (Pierce) before sinking a three. In the final minute, he fouls out Rasheed Wallace and makes the game-winning free throws.

Sorry for all the play-by-play here, but Bryant was pretty damn clutch when it mattered most. It may not have mirrored his fourth quarter against Phoenix where he was making impossible shot after impossible shot, but his fingerprints were all over those final six minutes.

Did he shoot 6-24? Yes, he did. Could he have made better decisions? Yes, he could have. But he found a way to help his team win, and great players do that. It was a collective effort, a team effort, and without them Bryant would not have succeeded.

But it wasn't an embarrassment. He left that for LeBron James, who didn't even want to shoot the ball.

Like your definition of “one of the greatest”, your definition of “clutch” seems to be broad too. First of all, the rebounds he got were really not that impressive. Rebounding in general can be overrated when you don’t take into account how a player got those rebounds. 3 of those 4 rebounds were completely uncontested, and part of the reason they were was because he was able to sag off Rondo.

Him drawing a double team didn’t create Artest’s shot and Artest was not open anyway. Like I said, Kobe doesn’t deserve any “clutch” credit for that. Artest just uncharacteristically hit a really tough shot.

I’m not saying he wasn’t effective. He just wasn’t clutch, at least for a player of his standards. He hit one jumper, hit his free throws (missed one too), and got a few uncontested rebounds, and most of this was all in the middle of the quarter. He didn’t really separate himself as the superstar from everyone else in the game. Like you said, it was a total team effort.

End of game performances like that happen all the time in the NBA. No one really calls it clutch cause they are really not that noticeable cause they just aren’t that great.

Here’s a question I have. If that’s not a bad performance for someone of his standards, what exactly is? And bring up something other than Lebron’s past 2 years, because those probably go down as the absolute worst in history. Cause if that’s not a bad performance, you must think almost every game by a superstar is not a bad performance either. Like I said, if they lost that game with him having that same exact performance, he’d be absolutely killed for it.

[The4thHorseman]

Here’s a question I have. If that’s not a bad performance for someone of his standards, what exactly is? And bring up something other than Lebron’s past 2 years, because those probably go down as the absolute worst in history. Cause if that’s not a bad performance, you must think almost every game by a superstar is not a bad performance either. Like I said, if they lost that game with him having that same exact performance, he’d be absolutely killed for it.

I realize this is OT but in the 2010 playoffs (11 games) James avg. 29 - 9 - 7.6. How can that be considered, or go down as, one of the absolute worst postseason performances in history?

[ImissJordan]

Okay you are not. But the topic is about if Kobe is overrated or not. Not “does IMISSJORDAN overrate Kobe or not?” The media and most of his fans hold him to a much higher standard than you do apparently. And when he doesn’t do meet that standard, which he hasn’t many times, that means he’s OVERRATED.

Overrated by a group, yes. But clearly, smarter basketball fans have him right around 8-12 in general. So the answer is some underrate him, some overrate him, and some rate him just right (like most in this thread).

The topic then deviated into a discussion about how he performed in Game Seven against the Celtics, and I added my two cents - which were that he shot poorly and made bad decisions, but he was still instrumental in their victory (as was Gasol, Artest, Fisher, etc). It's a disappointment if you expected a Hardwood Classic masterpiece, but he was still an extremely important factor in winning the game.

Ergo, it's not a really great example of how he IS an overrated player, unless your expectations were out of whack in the first place.

And I’ve said numerous times now that Duncan doesn’t get this criticism that much for his game 7 because NO ONE CARES ABOUT DUNCAN. No one cites Duncan as the GOAT. He’s not brought up in almost every topic here. The media freely admits that they don’t care to talk about him cause he’s boring. No one brings up that game 7 and cites it as evidence to his greatness because it was bad.

But again - nobody I know cites Kobe is the best player of all-time. Perhaps that is the consensus among a circle of friends you gallivant about town with, but I think a lot of people have a general idea of where he is as long as they follow the game enough.

And that's fine - Kobe has etched his place in history, and it's a very illustrious spot. It may not be as a top five player all-time but it's pretty comfortably top ten (and if it isn't now, it will be for almost everybody by the time he hangs them up).

My point is that Kobe gets too much flak for that game and I'm saying he doesn't really deserve it (like you calling it an embarrassment). He never asked anybody to anoint him as "his Heirness" or a better player than MJ. He's just doing him the best way he knows how, and for the past decade he's been an extremely prominent force in the league.

Where did I ever say or suggest his game 7 was a LIABILITY? Bad game does not equal liability. He’s only a liability if the Lakers would’ve been better off without him in that game. I’ve never suggested that. I’m saying his performance in the first 6 games doesn’t discount how bad his game 7 was. For example, if he had the 6 game run that Jordan had in the 92, 93, and 97 Finals, then had that game 7, then it would./quote]

I never said you said it was a liability, I said that you suggested that it was when you called it "an embarrassment" and a "disaster".

Clearly if that was the case, he would be a liability on the court.

I understand that no one is saying he played up to the hype of Magic or Jordan. The problem is HE RARELY EVER HAS in the Finals, yet he’s constantly hyped up that way and given his performance and importance of this game, it’s the most glaring example.

Yet he's been to the Finals seven times and won in five of them . This was an example of how he wins them, and it's different from how Michael Jordan did it. The point is that he still gets the job done, and he's done it both as a secondary player and a primary player. His past three playoffs (prior to this season) have been outstanding; he's been consistently excellent, but he's NOT at the level of an MJ (and thus is rated below him, and others) because he isn't as clutch.

Sorry it doesn’t. It was the end of the game but not as late as you’re suggesting. A superstar passing up the ball with over a minute left and a 3-point lead isn’t something some uncommon thing for a superstar to do. You really sound like you’re just reaching for anything to give him credit for.

A superstar passing up the ball with over a minute left and a 3-point lead IS surprising, especially for someone as notoriously selfish as Kobe Bryant. He wasn't playing outside of his teams' system, which is a contrast to the kinds of things he'd do earlier in his career (when I hated him).

I don’t look solely at FG%. I look at the game. It had a huge negative impact on the game and his contribution in other areas didn’t make up for that and make it an overall good game.

For the first half of the game, yes it did. What "areas" can a basketball player contribute? Passing, scoring, creating, rebounding, leading. Then there's the matter of their efficiency. Bryant wasn't efficient, but he contributed in a LOT OF OTHER AREAS, such as scoring (23 points), creating (15 free-throw attempts), defending, rebounding (15) and providing leadership and defense (which, again, is half the game).

The Lakers expect Bryant to shoot, and want him to because he's their best player. That's why he's paid the big bucks. So he wasn't efficient, but he did what he had to to help his team win the game.

What do you not get? I’m not giving him a pass. I’m not even trying to explain to you my perspective, but the overall perspective from fans and the media and why Dirk doesn’t get killed for his performance but Kobe does. The reason no one harps on Dirk’s performance is at that point in the Finals, no one had expected Dirk to have had that great of a playoff performance in the first place. Mainly because of his past where he had massive chokes. Dirk wasn’t even considered a top 5 player in the league before the playoffs. Dirk probably wasn’t even considered a top 25 player of all-time before the Finals. Hell, he still isn’t by a lot of people. But if people were calling him top 10 or GOAT, and comparing him to Jordan, Magic, and Bird, then he had that performance, he would’ve definitely been killed for it.

On the other hand, Kobe’s been put on that pedestal. He’s held to much higher standards then Dirk. It’s not really his fault, but the media and many of his crazy fans. That’s why he gets killed for it when he doesn’t perform up to par. The topic is about if Kobe is overrated or not, so its about does his overall play match up to his rep and hype. So bringing up Dirk and his performance isn’t really an apples to apples comparison, considering no one has really hyped up Dirk that much until recently.

And I actually was not expecting greatness from him. I remember ESPN and everyone predicting that the Lakers would win with the main reason being Kobe. I didn’t buy that at all cause I’ve heard it before and I didn’t really feel like he was having that great of a series in the first place. I felt he was more likely to have a bad game then a good game. I still wasn’t sure who was going to win the game though. So my expectations weren’t that off.

Again - the rep and hype you're hearing is different than what I am. You expected Kobe wouldn't play that great, and that the series he had wasn't great either - yet he averaged 28 points, 8 rebounds, 4 assists and two steals throughout an extremely tough-fought series, emerging victorious. But that's overrated because you heard others compare him to Michael Jordan?

Like your definition of “one of the greatest”, your definition of “clutch” seems to be broad too. First of all, the rebounds he got were really not that impressive. Rebounding in general can be overrated when you don’t take into account how a player got those rebounds. 3 of those 4 rebounds were completely uncontested, and part of the reason they were was because he was able to sag off Rondo.

So Kobe just happened to have rebounds fall into his arms in a series where every single winner won the rebounding battle? In the most important game of their lives, Kobe - a guard - corralled 15 rebounds and that isn't impressive? Especially within the pivotal sequence in which I just listed above?

Him drawing a double team didn’t create Artest’s shot and Artest was not open anyway. Like I said, Kobe doesn’t deserve any “clutch” credit for that. Artest just uncharacteristically hit a really tough shot.

Watch the play. Pierce is sagging off of Artest, and Kobe is being checked by Allen and Rasheed (who is hedging, before closing out to prevent Kobe from driving left with Allen ensuring he doesn't go right. Pierce is stepped back as a reactionary defender in case Kobe somehow splits the D, so Kobe hits Artest who is somewhat open until Piece closes, which is the reason for the slight jab step to give himself a bit of separation. It was a shot Ron doesn't take often, and it wasn't a dime or anything.

I give him credit for passing, not for the assist. There's a difference.

I’m not saying he wasn’t effective. He just wasn’t clutch, at least for a player of his standards. He hit one jumper, hit his free throws (missed one too), and got a few uncontested rebounds, and most of this was all in the middle of the quarter. He didn’t really separate himself as the superstar from everyone else in the game. Like you said, it was a total team effort.

He didn't blow anyone away, but he scored 10 points in the fourth quarter, grabbed 4-5 rebounds or so and played great team defense. Again, 23/15 in the game. Leading scorer, second-leading rebounder.

That's not "an embarrassment".

End of game performances like that happen all the time in the NBA. No one really calls it clutch cause they are really not that noticeable cause they just aren’t that great.

All the time in the NBA? You mean in all the Game Seven of the NBA Finals games? Every one of them?

Here’s a question I have. If that’s not a bad performance for someone of his standards, what exactly is? And bring up something other than Lebron’s past 2 years, because those probably go down as the absolute worst in history. Cause if that’s not a bad performance, you must think almost every game by a superstar is not a bad performance either. Like I said, if they lost that game with him having that same exact performance, he’d be absolutely killed for it.

I've already mentioned poor shooting performances - Dirk, Duncan, Bird and Michael were all shown to have bad shooting percentages in championship winning or losing games. It happens, largely because the intensity level is so high that if you were out there you'd sh*t your pants. Between the pressure and the NBA defenses being thrown at you and the trash talk and the stakes at play, players can become less efficient.

I've already said - if he shot 6-24, finished with 12 points, 5 rebounds, 2 assists and average defense, I'd have considered that an embarrassment for a player of his calibre. But he got to the free throw line a whole lot, grabbed 15 rebounds, played defense and played his best at an important stretch in the game.

Let's just agree to disagree, here.

[ImissJordan]

^^^
I lost that whole bit because of my stupid computer, so I had to copy/paste it and now it seems to be formatting very peculiarly. I'm too lazy to figure it out, so I'll let you do it. Hopefully we confuse ourselves enough to end this because it doesnt seem to be going anywhere meaningful.

[guy1]

I’ll address a few points:

I said from the beginning that he’s overrated not cause of his ranking, but some of the ridiculous things people say about him.

A superstar passing up the ball with over a minute is not surprising at all. It was a pass. If you’re saying a superstar passing up the ball is surprising, then what exactly did you expect? For him to hold the ball and not pass the ball at all to anyone for the last minute? When does that ever happen?

I never said the 15 rebounds weren’t impressive at all. I said they weren’t as impressive as people make it out to be. So you agree that 3 of those rebounds were uncontested correct? Yes, a lot of that had to do with just him being in the right spot with no one else really around. Sometimes, players get rebounds that way. That’s why I say sometimes rebounds can be overrated, because there’s no stat that takes into account how they got them. Sure, he gets credit for being aggressive and looking for it. But its not like it’s the same thing as a big shot or a huge assist, or getting a key rebound in the middle of traffic.

The Artest shot was not an open shot. Pierce sagged off a little but he still wasn’t open. Kobe deserves NO credit for that shot. It was still a tough shot. I don’t believe in flukes or luck, but if there was ever a fluke or lucky shot, that was it. All the credit for that goes to Artest. It was just an impressive shot.

As far as Kobe’s rep goes, I’m not talking about friends, I’m talking about a lot of people here online and the media. If you don’t agree about people online, I’m assuming you should at least agree that Kobe is overrated by the media.

I didn’t ask for an embarrassing performance. I asked just for a bad one. If you think that’s the minimum for a bad one, then you’re right, we’ll just have to agree to disagree here cause clearly your expectations are ridiculously too low.

[guy1]

Here’s a question I have. If that’s not a bad performance for someone of his standards, what exactly is? And bring up something other than Lebron’s past 2 years, because those probably go down as the absolute worst in history. Cause if that’s not a bad performance, you must think almost every game by a superstar is not a bad performance either. Like I said, if they lost that game with him having that same exact performance, he’d be absolutely killed for it.

I realize this is OT but in the 2010 playoffs (11 games) James avg. 29 - 9 - 7.6. How can that be considered, or go down as, one of the absolute worst postseason performances in history?

I was talking about specific games. Not a whole series or playoff run.