would NY have been better off if melo went to NJ?

illiance · Post #41 » by **illiance** » Sat Oct 29, 2011 9:29 pm

Well clearly the roster was really depleted but LeBron had significantly less talent in Cleveland and went to a Finals and a pair of seasons with the best records in the NBA. Honestly, until Melo starts playing defense, his teams will never be more than early playoff fodder. It starts with the coach and the front court though which are abysmal.

Kabookalu · Post #42 » by **Kabookalu** » Sat Oct 29, 2011 9:30 pm

J0rdan4life42o wrote:No, the Knicks didn't improve from the 1st half of the season because not only were they implementing 2 new starters to the team, but because Anthony isn't just a cog in a team's offense - he's the focal point of it and there wasn't enough time left in the season for the coaching staff to fully adapt to him and vice versa. On top of that, they were severely depleted in terms of depth, lost their only legit 7 footer and were working with a rail thin bench.

Losing Felton had little to do with it. And what's with this free flowing system you talk about? Raymond Felton was able to free style in D'Antoni's system? There's a lot more structure and logic behind D'Antoni's offense than you just illustrated.

Did I say there was no logic behind D'Anotni's system? It would serve you good to not jump to conclusions. His system is dependent on the performance of his point guard. Chauncey Billups didn't live up to the expectations; he's an overrated playmaker.

J0rdan4life42o · Post #43 » by **J0rdan4life42o** » Sat Oct 29, 2011 9:36 pm

Tim_Hardawayy wrote:Damn, I didn't realize the Knicks were only 14-18 with Melo. Over a full season, that comes out to 36-46. When you add in getting swept in the playoffs, that's pretty bad...

Still, its hard to say anything definitive until we see how both guys look this season, with a full year to evaluate them.

And what was the purpose of your first paragraph then? Why mention the Knicks would have went 36-46 over a full season based on how they did with 27 games with Anthony? And why are you bringing up the Knicks getting swept as if this was solely indicative of their performance, when you are aware Stoudemire/Billups were either out or hurt after game 1 through the remainder of the playoffs?

You were much better off just sticking with the second part of your post, rather than throwing some unnecessary jabs at last season's Knicks, trying to pass them off as simple facts.

waya · Post #44 » by **waya** » Sat Oct 29, 2011 9:37 pm

Tim_Hardawayy wrote:Damn, I didn't realize the Knicks were only 14-18 with Melo. Over a full season, that comes out to 36-46. When you add in getting swept in the playoffs, that's pretty bad...

Still, its hard to say anything definitive until we see how both guys look this season, with a full year to evaluate them.

Ironically, some of these same posters that are saying we were better before trading for Melo were the same ones complaining about how weak our schedule was early in the season. :roll:

The truth is, we went into the toughest month of our schedule (March) with a team that was basically thrown together mid-season.

Archerbro · Post #45 » by **Archerbro** » Sat Oct 29, 2011 9:38 pm

you really need to give a team training camp, i mean look at the heat for their first 20 games, they were pretty mediocre record wise as well. So take the knicks record post melo with a grain of salt. And see what happens this year, personally I can't tell whether I'd want deron or carmelo. Both superstars, and #2 at their positions IMO.

knicksosmoove · Post #46 » by **knicksosmoove** » Sat Oct 29, 2011 9:41 pm

illiance wrote:Well clearly the roster was really depleted but LeBron had significantly less talent in Cleveland and went to a Finals and a pair of seasons with the best records in the NBA. Honestly, until Melo starts playing defense, his teams will never be more than early playoff fodder. It starts with the coach and the front court though which are abysmal.

It's not just the roster. It's the fact that he got traded to a new team where he had to be the focal point of the offense with a month and a half left in the season to get organized. It's not just a tall order; it's an impossible order. It wasn't going to happen. Even the Heat were crappy for the first month or so of this season as they got used to each other and that was with a training camp and at the beginning of the season before you have to worry about things like fatigue and injuries.

BH8 · Post #47 » by **BH8** » Sat Oct 29, 2011 9:41 pm

illiance wrote:
najeem37 wrote:Carmelo can still dominate even on a **** team because he is a superstar. Look what happened to Deron when he got traded to the nets lol

Pre-Melo 28-26
Post-Melo 14-18

Yea......

That doesn't say much more other than the Knicks giving up too much in the trade.

BH8 · Post #48 » by **BH8** » Sat Oct 29, 2011 9:44 pm

illiance wrote:Well clearly the roster was really depleted but LeBron had significantly less talent in Cleveland and went to a Finals and a pair of seasons with the best records in the NBA. Honestly, until Melo starts playing defense, his teams will never be more than early playoff fodder. It starts with the coach and the front court though which are abysmal.

Lebron had a roster loaded with a players who complemented him. Melo's defense as a Knick was much improved. The Knicks' problem was that they had absolutely nothing in the center position.

ninjabelly · Post #49 » by **ninjabelly** » Sat Oct 29, 2011 9:44 pm

lol@ people underrating melo in this thread

Post #50 » by **Manhattan Project** » Sat Oct 29, 2011 9:55 pm

Denver had no leverage with Melo.
Utah had leverage with Deron.
NJ package > Knicks package.

It's possible that Utah could have rejected the Knicks package thus leading them to move Deron elsewhere if the Nets got Melo. We got Melo and I'm happy with that, no point in playing the speculation game really.

J0rdan4life42o · Post #51 » by **J0rdan4life42o** » Sat Oct 29, 2011 9:57 pm

Choker wrote:
J0rdan4life42o wrote:No, the Knicks didn't improve from the 1st half of the season because not only were they implementing 2 new starters to the team, but because Anthony isn't just a cog in a team's offense - he's the focal point of it and there wasn't enough time left in the season for the coaching staff to fully adapt to him and vice versa. On top of that, they were severely depleted in terms of depth, lost their only legit 7 footer and were working with a rail thin bench.

Losing Felton had little to do with it. And what's with this free flowing system you talk about? Raymond Felton was able to free style in D'Antoni's system? There's a lot more structure and logic behind D'Antoni's offense than you just illustrated.

Did I say there was no logic behind D'Anotni's system? It would serve you good to not jump to conclusions. His system is dependent on the performance of his point guard. Chauncey Billups didn't live up to the expectations; he's an overrated playmaker.

D'Antoni's point guards don't freestyle and his system is far from "free flowing". His "system" is highly dependent on floor spacing, having "stretch 4's" capable of creating that space and running an effective pick and roll.

Raymond Felton did a good job in running the offense and getting the ball in the right spots for the most part (his pick and roll game with Amar'e left a lot to be desired). Billups didn't live up to expectations more so because he got hurt 5 games after the trade, killing whatever little chemistry that was developing in that short time span. Then he went on to miss 6 games and never really got back into a rhythm - everything from his shooting to his playmaking suffered, but that's the risk of a making major mid-season deal.

knicksosmoove · Post #52 » by **knicksosmoove** » Sat Oct 29, 2011 9:58 pm

Honestly, if you didn't watch most of the Knicks games after the trade for Carmelo, you probably don't have an informed enough opinion to say anything. The team was a wreck. It wasn't Carmelo's fault (unless you want to blame him for demanding the trade, but that's a whole other issues); it wasn't coach D'Antoni's fault; it wasn't Amar'e's or Landry Fields' fault. It just is what it is. You can't get a new team to play controlled, winning basketball in the last month and a half of the regular season. You certainly cannot get a team playing the type of basketball D'Antoni's teams play in that time.

Our coach did the best he could to have us running some sort of offensive and defensive system, but the best he could do within that time frame was get us running some basic, make-shift plays and putting the ball in Carmelo's hands when we couldn't get anything else going and having him go to work. Plus the roster was quite depleted in terms of decent rotation players.

Kabookalu · Post #53 » by **Kabookalu** » Sat Oct 29, 2011 10:06 pm

J0rdan4life42o wrote:D'Antoni's point guards don't freestyle and his system is far from "free flowing". His "system" is highly dependent on floor spacing, having "stretch 4's" capable of creating that space and running an effective pick and roll.

Raymond Felton did a good job in running the offense and getting the ball in the right spots for the most part (his pick and roll game with Amar'e left a lot to be desired). Billups didn't live up to expectations more so because he got hurt 5 games after the trade, killing whatever little chemistry that was developing in that short time span. Then he went on to miss 6 games and never really got back into a rhythm - everything from his shooting to his playmaking suffered, but that's the risk of a making major mid-season deal.

By free flowing offense, I meant that the system is flexible and asks for the point guard to be creative. Of course there's more structure to the offense but there is a lot of dependency on the point guard himself to perform. Billups is neither dynamic nor creative; he's one of those guys that will run whatever the coach asks of him but can't really be that dynamic point guard. Healthy or not he wasn't going to live up to what Felton left before him. Granted he kind of improved later down in the season and stepped up big against Miami, though I wouldn't count on it happening on a regular basis.

koogiking · Post #54 » by **koogiking** » Sat Oct 29, 2011 10:16 pm

Tim_Hardawayy wrote:Damn, I didn't realize the Knicks were only 14-18 with Melo. Over a full season, that comes out to 36-46. When you add in getting swept in the playoffs, that's pretty bad...

Thats because they weren't. Knicks were .500 after the trade.

koogiking · Post #55 » by **koogiking** » Sat Oct 29, 2011 10:19 pm

There were only 28 games after the trade. How could the Knicks go 14-18? that's 32 games.

The Knicks were .500 after the trade

J0rdan4life42o · Post #56 » by **J0rdan4life42o** » Sat Oct 29, 2011 10:20 pm

Choker wrote:
J0rdan4life42o wrote:D'Antoni's point guards don't freestyle and his system is far from "free flowing". His "system" is highly dependent on floor spacing, having "stretch 4's" capable of creating that space and running an effective pick and roll.

Raymond Felton did a good job in running the offense and getting the ball in the right spots for the most part (his pick and roll game with Amar'e left a lot to be desired). Billups didn't live up to expectations more so because he got hurt 5 games after the trade, killing whatever little chemistry that was developing in that short time span. Then he went on to miss 6 games and never really got back into a rhythm - everything from his shooting to his playmaking suffered, but that's the risk of a making major mid-season deal.

By free flowing offense, I meant that the system is flexible and asks for the point guard to be creative. Of course there's more structure to the offense but there is a lot of dependency on the point guard himself to perform. Billups is neither dynamic nor creative; he's one of those guys that will run whatever the coach asks of him but can't really be that dynamic point guard. Healthy or not he wasn't going to live up to what Felton left before him. Granted he kind of improved later down in the season and stepped up big against Miami, though I wouldn't count on it happening on a regular basis.

Yes, the point guard needs to be able to come down the court, read the defense and alter plays based on what he sees. I put more emphasis on intelligence, high basketball IQ and great leadership than for a point guard to be super creative in that situation. And while Felton pushed the ball more, he was also more erratic and I witnessed him heave up shots far too many times because he was gassed, not exactly what you want from your point guard. He did good good for the Knicks with the collection of players we had before, but he was far from a perfect fit and would not have been the right lead guard to have alongside Amar'e and Anthony. Not that my first preference is Billups, but between the 2, he offers a much better medium to what the team will eventually need.

RutgersBJJ · Post #57 » by **RutgersBJJ** » Sat Oct 29, 2011 10:27 pm

We got 2 starters in the Melo trade, not just one. Why would we have been better off giving up more for less? Williams may be better than Melo, but he isn't that much better that he could off-set having no one to play at the most talent filled position in the NBA. How would the knicks succeed with literally no SF on our roster? Plus the only reason we got Melo to begin with for that mediocre package are because he and Amare are friends. The DWill trade was a legitimate trade with a fair market value return, if the Nets got Melo, I'm sure the Knicks would have negotiated with Utah but they didn't have any of the draft picks are lottery talent the Nets had. That means more teams would have been in on D-Will, and I bet he would have ended up going to Atlanta for a package around Josh Smith or Al Horford.

Felton is average and is a terrible playmaker. We lost no playmaking when we lost him. He can't even run a pick and roll. He's just as bad as a playmaker as Billups, except Billups knows his limitations and Felton does not.

Kabookalu · Post #58 » by **Kabookalu** » Sat Oct 29, 2011 10:31 pm

J0rdan4life42o wrote:Yes, the point guard needs to be able to come down the court, read the defense and alter plays based on what he sees. I put more emphasis on intelligence, high basketball IQ and great leadership than for a point guard to be super creative in that situation. And while Felton pushed the ball more, he was also more erratic and I witnessed him heave up shots far too many times because he was gassed, not exactly what you want from your point guard. He did good good for the Knicks with the collection of players we had before, but he was far from a perfect fit and would not have been the right lead guard to have alongside Amar'e and Anthony. Not that my first preference is Billups, but between the 2, he offers a much better medium to what the team will eventually need.

I disagree and stand by my position that Billups is a severely overrated playmaker having followed him since Detroit for so long. He won't go out of line but he's limited too. He's always played with stacked teams and was always in the perfect position to exert his wisdom, but ask him to shoulder more than half of the lion's share of responsibility and he gets exposed. Felton lacks what Billups excels in but I feel that he's more perfect in the Knicks situation, though I get why some would prefer Billups though.

Now I'm not advocating that the Knicks are doomed without Felton. In this point guard era of basketball, finding a Felton may be easier to come by (but not guaranteed either); I just feel that the production they were getting from him under the contract they got him for was a bargain. Though if there's one guy I would be excited about if I were a Knicks fan, it would be Myck Kabongo. He's best point guard in the upcoming draft imo, could be the exact guy that would take the Knicks over the top who combines Billup's leadership with Felton's creativeness. Might lack as a scorer but he still has yet to even play a game of college basketball so there's still room for him to grow.

bobbyc · Post #59 » by **bobbyc** » Sat Oct 29, 2011 10:36 pm

koogiking wrote:
Tim_Hardawayy wrote:Damn, I didn't realize the Knicks were only 14-18 with Melo. Over a full season, that comes out to 36-46. When you add in getting swept in the playoffs, that's pretty bad...

Thats because they weren't. Knicks were .500 after the trade.

They were 14-14 in the regular season. But you guys might have forgot, they were in the playoffs. They just didn't win a game. So yes, they were 14-18.

J0rdan4life42o · Post #60 » by **J0rdan4life42o** » Sat Oct 29, 2011 10:46 pm

Choker wrote:
I disagree and stand by my position that Billups is a severely overrated playmaker having followed him since Detroit for so long. He won't go out of line but he's limited too. He's always played with stacked teams and was always in the perfect position to exert his wisdom, but ask him to shoulder more than half of the lion's share of responsibility and he gets exposed. Felton lacks what Billups excels in but I feel that he's more perfect in the Knicks situation, though I get why some would prefer Billups though.

But who here is advocating Billups as being a great play-maker to warrant you labeling him as being overrated in that area? Billups is 100x better at setting up and executing the pick and roll than Felton ever was here and Billups was much better at getting the ball in the rights spots to our scorers (more so with Anthony, but there was a working chemistry building with Stoudemire).

His high basketball IQ, leadership qualities and big game experience far outweigh whatever limitations you think he has as a play-maker.