would NY have been better off if melo went to NJ?

[Doctor MJ]

Knowing what we know now, would the Knicks have been better had melo went to the nets? I ask because when the Utah GM came out afterwards saying whoever lost melo he would have started talk about d will so it very well could have been amare and d will which I personally think is a much better fit, thoughts?

Yup. Because NY already had Amare the need for a point guard was far greater than for another scorer. Of course the quality of player matters too, but DWill also had more impact in Utah than Melo did in Denver, so it doesn't make a whole lot of sense to look at Melo as a higher caliber player. At best, maybe Melo is DWill's equal, and Melo's strengths are quite redundant in NY. Major mistake.

[Doctor MJ]

What if Nazi Germany had invaded United Kingdom and annexed to their empire in 1940?
Nobody will ever have an answer for such a question, so please stop these kind of fantasy brainstorming.

If Nazi Germany had annexed the UK in 1940, NY would have been better off if Melo went to NJ.

[knicksosmoove]

What if Nazi Germany had invaded United Kingdom and annexed to their empire in 1940?
Nobody will ever have an answer for such a question, so please stop these kind of fantasy brainstorming.

If Nazi Germany had annexed the UK in 1940, NY would have been better off if Melo went to NJ.

you're a Melo hater and this joke wasn't funny.

[dk7th]

I like Ray's heart a lot, and he is a somewhat talented scorer, but I don't miss him too much, and I don't think our team is going to be much worse off without him. He is a rather sloppy player. His handle isn't too tight; he's not the best decision maker; his passing isn't that on-point, and his shooting is streaky.

And for all of his faults he's the best point guard that was capable of running D'Antoni's offense outside of Steve Nash. Remove all those flaws and he's on Nash/CP3 level. For the value you guys were paying him for, that's quite a bargain. I would much rather have him than Billups, who I always thought is an overrated playmaker.

but he IS flawed.

he couldn't execute the pick and roll very well and his shot selection was sub-par for a guy who is supposed to be running an offense. his defense was also overrated. he simply is not a starter. i think fans were relieved that he was something of an upgrade over chris duhon; walsh was shrewd to make that deal so short even if it was not seen through. felton was seen by walsh as a stopgap.

there is a reason why certain players keep getting traded.

[dk7th]

D'Antoni's point guards don't freestyle and his system is far from "free flowing". His "system" is highly dependent on floor spacing, having "stretch 4's" capable of creating that space and running an effective pick and roll.

Raymond Felton did a good job in running the offense and getting the ball in the right spots for the most part (his pick and roll game with Amar'e left a lot to be desired). Billups didn't live up to expectations more so because he got hurt 5 games after the trade, killing whatever little chemistry that was developing in that short time span. Then he went on to miss 6 games and never really got back into a rhythm - everything from his shooting to his playmaking suffered, but that's the risk of a making major mid-season deal.

By free flowing offense, I meant that the system is flexible and asks for the point guard to be creative. Of course there's more structure to the offense but there is a lot of dependency on the point guard himself to perform. Billups is neither dynamic nor creative; he's one of those guys that will run whatever the coach asks of him but can't really be that dynamic point guard. Healthy or not he wasn't going to live up to what Felton left before him. Granted he kind of improved later down in the season and stepped up big against Miami, though I wouldn't count on it happening on a regular basis.

Yes, the point guard needs to be able to come down the court, read the defense and alter plays based on what he sees. I put more emphasis on intelligence, high basketball IQ and great leadership than for a point guard to be super creative in that situation. And while Felton pushed the ball more, he was also more erratic and I witnessed him heave up shots far too many times because he was gassed, not exactly what you want from your point guard. He did good good for the Knicks with the collection of players we had before, but he was far from a perfect fit and would not have been the right lead guard to have alongside Amar'e and Anthony. Not that my first preference is Billups, but between the 2, he offers a much better medium to what the team will eventually need.

good post.

[Dreamz]

Depends on if they had to give up as much as they did for Melo with D-Will. I would take D-Will over Melo when you already have a #1 scorer in Amare though.

[eazy-e jianlian]

Let's put it this way if the Nets offered Deron for Melo the Knicks would agree to that deal in a heartbeat... Hell they might even throw in extra just to hammer the deal through ASAP.

[dk7th]

I mean, no one has any delusions that Chauncey Billups is Steve Nash or Chris Paul. He's clearly not particularly creative. I just disagree with the notion that Raymond Felton is any more creative than Chauncey Billups. One of the biggest complaints at the Knicks board was how Ray tended to freeze everyone other than himself and Amar'e out. Too often coming out of the pick and roll he would either take the shot himself or dump it off to Amar'e so Amar'e could hoist up some crap (which would often go in because Amar'e is a very good bad shot taker if he's within the paint).

I think I would rather have Chauncey next to Amar'e and Carmelo than Felton because at least Chauncey will control the pace better, have fewer stupid turnovers (another big problem with Raymond's game), and he's a really good shooter.

And yet for all this complaining with Felton that he freezes people out of the offense, the Knicks had great offensive chemistry. Under Billups not really. Now that seems a bit unfair because they only had like a month and a half to get acquainted with each other, but weren't the Knicks also a completely different team to start off the year? They came together quick even though the 2 best players were new acquisitions. All this talk of having training camp and time to gel is overstated. Over the years I've found that if things were meant to be in basketball, it'll happen right away. The Celtics gelled immediately. The Heat took some time. With Billups, he just doesn't provide what is necessary to run D'Antoni's system. Not to say they can't win with him, because of course like I've already said, his leadership abilities are great to have on any team.

"great chemistry?" wow. most fans give any new team 25 games to gel into something cohesive. i know i did. but the knicks never developed chemistry. that is primarily on felton and stoudemire. the ball stuck way way too much between those two to promote great chemistry. d'anton said as much often enough. "the ball is sticking too much. we need better ball movement." that's coach-speak for "felton and stoudemire are not keeping the ball moving enough and are each forcing up 4-5 bad shots every game."

the result? stoudemire burned HIMSELF out by going one on two or one on three when hitting the open man or open men would have been better-- much much better. some knick fans spin this as "he had to carry the offense" or "he put the team on his back." that's straight up ignorance. stoudemire did little to create great chemistry, which is certainly a prerequisite for being the first option on any team.

how many knick games did you watch last season up until the trade?

[CanadianKnicksFan]

Damn, I didn't realize the Knicks were only 14-18 with Melo. Over a full season, that comes out to 36-46. When you add in getting swept in the playoffs, that's pretty bad...

Still, its hard to say anything definitive until we see how both guys look this season, with a full year to evaluate them.

while the nuggets had the second best record in the NBA after the trade... hmmmm

We'll see how your team is this season.

[prs]

Really people are talking about Felton in this thread? Are you looking past stats? Cause all he could do is get the ball to Amare and sometimes get hot from 3. No knicks fan was really sweating the loss of Felton. Most of us were upset about losing Gallo+ Mosgov.

Felton can easily be replaced and was brought in as a stop gap. He couldn't really do much but get the ball to Amar'e and it took him quite a while to do that correctly. Hes certainly better at point than Duhon/Douglas and it got most of us excited at the start of the season. However, it was pretty clear within only a couple of games that Chauncey is a better play maker and decision maker (although he does chuck at times). Of course Chauncey is another stop gap but it shouldn't be hard to find a guy that can run PnR with Amar'e and pass the ball to Melo.

[knicksosmoove]

Let's put it this way if the Nets offered Deron for Melo the Knicks would agree to that deal in a heartbeat... Hell they might even throw in extra just to hammer the deal through ASAP.

I hope you don't actually believe this.

[dk7th]

Really people are talking about Felton in this thread? Are you looking past stats? Cause all he could do is get the ball to Amare and sometimes get hot from 3. No knicks fan was really sweating the loss of Felton. Most of us were upset about losing Gallo+ Mosgov.

Felton can easily be replaced and was brought in as a stop gap. He couldn't really do much but get the ball to Amar'e and it took him quite a while to do that correctly. Hes certainly better at point than Duhon/Douglas and it got most of us excited at the start of the season. However, it was pretty clear within only a couple of games that Chauncey is a better play maker and decision maker (although he does chuck at times). Of course Chauncey is another stop gap but it shouldn't be hard to find a guy that can run PnR with Amar'e and pass the ball to Melo.

i wish the knicks had followed stoudemire's wishes and made a bid for luke ridnour instead. same money much better fit but a slightly worse defender. felton's defense was overrated, being "hard-nosed" notwithstanding.

[knicksosmoove]

I personally believe that the scorekeepers at MSG were a little generous with what counted as "assists" for Raymond Felton.

[nofours]

Melo and Deron Williams are around the same tier of player. Knicks would be good with either but I don't see Deron as being a player that can lead a team to a championship as the clear cut #1 option. What really hurt the knicks more than anything was trading anthony randolph for the opportunity to cut corey brewer and save the nuggets some money. Knicks fans can thank their dumbass coach for that.

[Thugger HBC]

Melo and Deron Williams are around the same tier of player. Knicks would be good with either but I don't see Deron as being a player that can lead a team to a championship as the clear cut #1 option. What really hurt the knicks more than anything was trading anthony randolph for the opportunity to cut corey brewer and save the nuggets some money. Knicks fans can thank their dumbass coach for that.

Deron wouldn't be the #1 option with Amar'e here.

And not one single Knicks fan is missing AR, and Corey Brewer had his eyes set on a new contract, which he got immediately when he went to Dallas, which the Knicks did not want to give for cap purposes.

If it was trying acquiring players that could have been useful maybe Telfair would have been that guy instead, but that's the goal of the Knicks at the time.

[eazy-e jianlian]

Let's put it this way if the Nets offered Deron for Melo the Knicks would agree to that deal in a heartbeat... Hell they might even throw in extra just to hammer the deal through ASAP.

I hope you don't actually believe this.

You know it's true... Deron is just a much better player than Carmelo, and even if you want to deny that FACT then at least admit that Deron is an infinitely better fit next to Amar'e than Carmelo.

For all the hype about Melo as a "closer" Deron is every bit as good and arguably even better since he doesn't have tunnel vision and is capable of finding open players.

[knicksosmoove]

Let's put it this way if the Nets offered Deron for Melo the Knicks would agree to that deal in a heartbeat... Hell they might even throw in extra just to hammer the deal through ASAP.

I hope you don't actually believe this.

You know it's true... Deron is just a much better player than Carmelo, and even if you want to deny that FACT then at least admit that Deron is an infinitely better fit next to Amar'e than Carmelo.

For all the hype about Melo as a "closer" Deron is every bit as good and arguably even better since he doesn't have tunnel vision and is capable of finding open players.

I don't really want to take the bait on this one. I doubt a discussion would go anywhere. There is an argument for Deron being the better player, but he is not much better. In terms of "closing," I don't think I've ever seen Deron in a do-or-die situation, he is not as good a scorer as Carmelo though, if that's what you're suggesting. It's not really a natural comparison anyway. Deron's a point guard; it's much harder for him to get his shot off or get a good look at the basket than it is for a 6'8 wing.

[nofours]

Melo and Deron Williams are around the same tier of player. Knicks would be good with either but I don't see Deron as being a player that can lead a team to a championship as the clear cut #1 option. What really hurt the knicks more than anything was trading anthony randolph for the opportunity to cut corey brewer and save the nuggets some money. Knicks fans can thank their dumbass coach for that.

Deron wouldn't be the #1 option with Amar'e here.

And not one single Knicks fan is missing AR, and Corey Brewer had his eyes set on a new contract, which he got immediately when he went to Dallas, which the Knicks did not want to give for cap purposes.

If it was trying acquiring players that could have been useful maybe Telfair would have been that guy instead, but that's the goal of the Knicks at the time.

I'm not talking about being the number one option offensively I'm talking about actual leadership skills. Unless you think Amare can lead a team to a title as the number one option which nothing that I've seen so far leads me to believe he can. Melo is that will step up and carry a team on his back.

And its not about missing corey brewer or anthony randolph its about keeping assets to make moves future moves. The knicks literally just threw in anthony randolph for nothing. No reason to include the Wolves into the deal at all. Denver taking on Eddie Curry's contract wouldn"t be a deal breaker. The Knicks still came up with the better end of the deal, but they should have at least tried to hold onto more assets

[NBA Fan 1234]

Melo and Deron Williams are around the same tier of player. Knicks would be good with either but I don't see Deron as being a player that can lead a team to a championship as the clear cut #1 option. What really hurt the knicks more than anything was trading anthony randolph for the opportunity to cut corey brewer and save the nuggets some money. Knicks fans can thank their dumbass coach for that.

Deron wouldn't be the #1 option with Amar'e here.

And not one single Knicks fan is missing AR, and Corey Brewer had his eyes set on a new contract, which he got immediately when he went to Dallas, which the Knicks did not want to give for cap purposes.

If it was trying acquiring players that could have been useful maybe Telfair would have been that guy instead, but that's the goal of the Knicks at the time.

I'm not talking about being the number one option offensively I'm talking about actual leadership skills. Unless you think Amare can lead a team to a title as the number one option which nothing that I've seen so far leads me to believe he can. Melo is that will step up and carry a team on his back.

And its not about missing corey brewer or anthony randolph its about keeping assets to make moves future moves. The knicks literally just threw in anthony randolph for nothing. No reason to include the Wolves into the deal at all. Denver taking on Eddie Curry's contract wouldn"t be a deal breaker. The Knicks still came up with the better end of the deal, but they should have at least tried to hold onto more assets

IIRC, it was a pretty big deal from Kroenke's POV - he did not want to take on Curry's contract. If that is true, then yes, including Minnesota is necessary. (I could be mistaken, but I think that is true)

[eazy-e jianlian]

In terms of "closing," I don't think I've ever seen Deron in a do-or-die situation,

I take it you haven't seen many (any?) Jazz or Nets games?

he is not as good a scorer as Carmelo though, if that's what you're suggesting. It's not really a natural comparison anyway. Deron's a point guard; it's much harder for him to get his shot off or get a good look at the basket than it is for a 6'8 wing.

About that... 6'3'' Deron is a more efficient scorer than Carmelo...

Don't let the hype and Carmelo cult fool you, Carmelo tends to have pretty PPG averages because his preference for playing hero-ball and his low basketball IQ often result in him ignoring teammates in favor of his own wild shot attempts.

Deron Williams is a better offensive player than Carmelo, you can trust him to make the right play whether the right play is to create a shot for himself off the dribble, catch-and-shoot, or find the open man...

There's a lot of flash to Carmelo's game so he's a fun player to watch, but Deron Williams gets the job done at a better rate than Carmelo does.