MarJJMar wrote:tsherkin wrote:
That's pretty much it, and that is very impressive. Still, as someone else said, Lebron makes very good passes to open players who are opened up by penetration. Magic could, on the break or in the half-court, basically summon a pass out of his hat in just about any situation. Passes no one else would dare make, because he noticed something like which way someone's head was turned. He could notice that and exploit it faster than the dude could turn his head and react so that he fired passes that went slicing THROUGH the key to a guy way on the other side who suddenly found himself dumb-founded and wide open.
That was Magic.
Lebron never does that. No one in the league right now does, really. Magic saw EVERYTHING. Bird was similar in his vision, but not quite in his craft. Excellent passer, very innovative and spontaneous, but Magic was just on another level from everyone. There hasn't been a passer like him since, and certainly wasn't one before. Utterly amazing.
Magic's passing is not on another level from Steve Nash. It's highly argueable between them who was/is the better passer, just take a look at advanced statistics to see how many layups, dunks and close shots Nash assists.
Compared to someone like Chris Paul and other PGs who usually get their assists from penetration and passing to teammates for long open jumpers the difference is astronomically high.
This is partially dependent on the teammates one has though, so it's not as simple as just who get's more close/dunk assists.
eg:
Chris Paul2010/2011
82games: 64 dunk assists, 171 close assists (30.1%)
Hoopdata: 3.1 at rim (31.6%)
2009/2010
82games: 51 dunk assists, 130 close assists (37.7%)
Hoopdata: 3.9 at rim (36.4%)
2008/2009:
82games: 163 dunk assists, 183 close assists (40.1%)
Hoopdata: 4.2 at rim (38.2%)
2007/2008
82games: 161 dunk assists, 205 close assists (39.6%)
Hoopdata: 4.3 at rim (37.1%)
2006/2007
82games: 84 dunks assists, 127 close assists (37.1%)
Hoopdata: 3.2 at rim (36%)
Steve Nash 2010/2011 (no Stoudemire)
82games: 78 dunk assists, 263 close assists (40%)
Hoopdata: 4.8 at rim (42.1%)
2005/2006 (no Stoudemire):
82games: 88 dunk assists, 209 close assists (36%)
Hoopdata: No data
2006/2007
82games: 170 dunk assists, 297 close assists (52.8%)
Hoopdata: 5.9 at rim (50.8%)
2007/2008 (Amare career high PPG and FG%)
82games: 185 dunk assists, 304 close assists (54.8%)
Hoopdata: 5.8 at rim (52.3%)
2008/2009 (Shaq only 59% assisted compared to Marion's 85%, Amare isoing more)
82games: 127 dunk assists, 248 close assists (52.3%)
Hoopdata: 4.7 at rim (48.5%)
2009/2010
82 games: 160 dunk assists, 260 close assists (47.1%)
Hoopdata: 4.9 at rim (44.5%)
Even when we take into account Amare isolating more and being assisted about 10-13% less in his last two years in Phoenix, we still see a difference in Nash assist areas based on what kind of players are around him (as we should). Baron Davis for example has a career high (based on the hoopdata numbers available) at rim% (54.3%) on the short time he was a Clipper this season, and the short time he played with Cleveland (54.0%), that's due to having guys like Blake Griffin and J.J. Hickson (he needs to take less jumpshots at his .347 eFG%) who will get assisted and finish a lot close to the basket.
Deron Williams2010/2011 (Utah)
82games: 51 dunk assists, 146 close assists (38.4%)
Hoopdata: 3.9 at rim (39.2%)
2009/2010
82games: 99 dunk assists, 285 close assists (48.1%)
Hoopdata: 4.9 at rim (46.7%)
2008/2009
82games: 110 dunk assists, 193 close assists (41.8%)
Hoopdata: 4.5 at rim (42.1%)
2007/2008
82games: 120 dunk assists, 261 close assists (44.2%)
Hoopdata: 4.6 at rim (43.8%)
2006/2007
82games: 58 dunk assists, 265 close assists (43.4%)
Hoopdata: 3.8 at rim (40.9%)
Rajon Rondo 2010/2011
82games: 47 dunk assists, 220 close assists (35.1%)
Hoopdata: 4.6 at rim (41.1%)
(weird numbers here, hoopdata gives him about 91 more at rim assists than his combined close and dunk on 82games)
2009/2010:
82games: 88 dunk assists, 282 close assists (46.6%)
Hoopdata: 4.2 at rim (42.9%)
2008/2009:
82games: 84 dunk assists, 192 close assists (41.9%)
Hoopdata: 3.2 at rim (39.0%)
Nash is very good, but the difference isn't "astronomical" compared to the other PG's, especially when you take out two 20+ PPG high assisted players (2005-2006 without Amare only, later without Marion, and 2010-2011 without either). There are players better than others at creating these shots, but it's also teammate dependent (eg: Paul's huge increase in dunk assists with Chandler, but no great change in overall rim assists b/c Chandler is not much of a scorer, and Okafor dunks less but can score similarly inside with layups etc). And no matter what you do, David West is not going to be majority assisted at the rim because he's a jump-shooter.
The higher at rim assists for Williams and Nash in comparison to Paul and with Rondo in the middle is the difference between David West being assisted 56-57% of the time, and taking 65%+ jumpers and Boozer and Amare being assisted 65-70% of the time and taking an average of about 50% of their shots close to the basket. Then Garnett being a jumpshooter (70%+), but also able to finish off alley-oops etc well at the rim (more so earlier as a Celtic than now), and being assisted much more than a David West (74%+)/
Andre Miller is also quite good at getting assists at the rim, and I think if he could shoot like them and actually warranted being allowed to handle so much he would have similar or better volume than them. Very good alley-oop thrower.
There can be a little difference between faster and slower paced teams also. On a faster paced team you might get 0.2 more APG at the rim due to having more fast break assist opportunities.
All in all though, I think Magic would probably be high up on this list in terms of dunk and close assists both overall and percentage wise. But the guy makes some passes that many people would not really be able to see or want to attempt. Watching highlights of him is just too fun, I have to stop and go back to see what happened on a lot of the passes.
