Let's Clear this up right now: Russell Westbrook
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Re: Let's Clear this up right now: Russell Westbrook
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Re: Let's Clear this up right now: Russell Westbrook
The Thunder often play with a lineup of
Westbrook
Thabo
Durant
Ibaka
Perkins
This is a heavy defensive lineup with really 2 guys asked to handle the scoring. The idea that when Durant can't get open that Westbrook is going to have to take the shot is not crazy Now Harden potentially becoming a starter should help. They really need either Ibaka to take another step offensively or get another scorer at the PF or C spot. Even with Harden as a starter your really a perimeter oriented team asking Westbrook and Durant to take most of the shots.
Westbrook
Thabo
Durant
Ibaka
Perkins
This is a heavy defensive lineup with really 2 guys asked to handle the scoring. The idea that when Durant can't get open that Westbrook is going to have to take the shot is not crazy Now Harden potentially becoming a starter should help. They really need either Ibaka to take another step offensively or get another scorer at the PF or C spot. Even with Harden as a starter your really a perimeter oriented team asking Westbrook and Durant to take most of the shots.
"Talent is God-given. Be humble. Fame is man-given. Be grateful. Conceit is self-given. Be careful." John Wooden
Re: Let's Clear this up right now: Russell Westbrook
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Re: Let's Clear this up right now: Russell Westbrook
Frank Mulely wrote:Plus its just a feel you get watching them. Rose is shoot first but h'es not a pig. RWB is. He just plays dumb and makes things hard for himself. Rose you get the sense will do whatever it takes to win. RWB will do whatever it takes to prove he's a superstar. big difference.
Tell us more about NBA psychology, professor...
Russell Westbrook carried the Thunder for the first month and a half of the season. He did everything he had to do to keep the team winning when Kevin Durant was slumping, when his team went through some early season injuries, etc. He didn't complain to anyone after the Jeff Green trade when suddenly he had one competent offensive player in the starting lineup. He didn't blow off steam to the media when Eric Maynor got crunch time minutes in a playoff game. There has been nothing coming from Russell Westbrook's mouth, his teammates, or the team that suggests he hasn't been a consummate team player. It's really just media and fans like yourself who want to make mountains out of molehills.
The bottom line is that Westbrook made a big leap in his third NBA season at a position he's still learning on the fly. He lead the Thunder to a top five offense during the regular season and the team knocked on the door of the NBA Finals with their top four players 23 years old or under. He's a top five PG in the NBA, and probably top twenty overall. There were plenty of threads this team last season asking if Russell Westbrook was better than Kevin Durant. Nobody will deny that Westbrook has holes in his game. He has to get more under control, practice better shot selection, commit 100% on defense more consistently, etc. Yet with all those criticisms he's still been immensely productive and has seen considerable early success. That's fine with me.
Re: Let's Clear this up right now: Russell Westbrook
- bhartsell
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Re: Let's Clear this up right now: Russell Westbrook
Rose isn't a pass first PG, the mythological gene seems to be missing as well. Russ and Rose both saw the Conference Finals last year in their 3rd year so I'd say they're doing all right. Marbury also turned out to e a one of a kind head case, that was his problem.
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Re: Let's Clear this up right now: Russell Westbrook
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Re: Let's Clear this up right now: Russell Westbrook
zaRdsAndZeRos wrote:i just find it odd that RB gets hated on so much for the dallas series yet no one talks about rose in the miami series
Seriously?
Rose got roasted over the flames on here for his performance in that series.
Re: Let's Clear this up right now: Russell Westbrook
- BodieB
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Re: Let's Clear this up right now: Russell Westbrook
Durant has been getting somewhat of a pass for not getting open in those series but there were times when Westbrook would get the inbound pass and literally dribble the ball up court and shoot a terrible shot with 3 defenders contesting it. He wouldn't even look in Durant's direction. It was horrible and puzzling to watch.
Re: Let's Clear this up right now: Russell Westbrook
- bhartsell
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Re: Let's Clear this up right now: Russell Westbrook
And Rose has Boozer and Deng. Noah is more than competent offensively, too. He has options, even of they aren't Durant, it's not like he's playing with the Bobcats support cast. Rose just shoots a lot. I don't think there's anything wrong with it. Again, they were great last year
"He's one of the best power forwards of all time. I take my hands off to him." -Scottie Pippen
Re: Let's Clear this up right now: Russell Westbrook
- realball
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Re: Let's Clear this up right now: Russell Westbrook
Westbrook has Ibaka, Thabo and Perkins. It's not like OKC some crappy defensive team, they are in fact fantastic defensively. I think those three pretty much cancel out Noah and Deng. And then you see Boozer, who sucks on either side of the ball, and Keith Bogans, who makes Thabo look like Kobe, and it becomes pretty damn clear who has a better supporting cast.
Not to mention, he also Harden. And a guy named Kevin Durant.
Westbrook is good, but Rose is better. And Westbrook is a ball hog. he's not Marbury or AI; he's not a locker room cancer. He's competitive, but he needs to develops better fundamentals instead of trying to overpower his defender all the time.
Not to mention, he also Harden. And a guy named Kevin Durant.
Westbrook is good, but Rose is better. And Westbrook is a ball hog. he's not Marbury or AI; he's not a locker room cancer. He's competitive, but he needs to develops better fundamentals instead of trying to overpower his defender all the time.
Re: Let's Clear this up right now: Russell Westbrook
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Re: Let's Clear this up right now: Russell Westbrook
realball wrote:Westbrook has Ibaka, Thabo and Perkins. It's not like OKC some crappy defensive team, they are in fact fantastic defensively. I think those three pretty much cancel out Noah and Deng. And then you see Boozer, who sucks on either side of the ball, and Keith Bogans, who makes Thabo look like Kobe, and it becomes pretty damn clear who has a better supporting cast.
Not to mention, he also Harden. And a guy named Kevin Durant.
Westbrook is good, but Rose is better. And Westbrook is a ball hog. he's not Marbury or AI; he's not a locker room cancer. He's competitive, but he needs to develops better fundamentals instead of trying to overpower his defender all the time.
This statement immediatly loses you all credibility. (If rambling on about players defense when the conversation is about offense didn't do that alreay.) Go back to sleep mr.
Re: Let's Clear this up right now: Russell Westbrook
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Re: Let's Clear this up right now: Russell Westbrook
thank you op. the problem with okc in the playoffs was that Durant wasn't getting open. the def would push him all the way to the 3 point line from a post up.
westbrook is so great at breaking down his man and getting a shot/layup. why dont people care about durant having a bad shooting series against dallas.
did somebody say keith bogans makes sefolosha look like kobe? they both suck offensvely but sefolosha cant make a three.
noah is a much better player then perkins. offensively/defensvely/rebounding/passing everything
deng is not a bad 3 third option.
people need to stop making it seem like bulls have no one and okc is a stacked team.
westbrook is the second best scorer on the team when durant cant get open he has to call his own play and create something
westbrook is so great at breaking down his man and getting a shot/layup. why dont people care about durant having a bad shooting series against dallas.
did somebody say keith bogans makes sefolosha look like kobe? they both suck offensvely but sefolosha cant make a three.
noah is a much better player then perkins. offensively/defensvely/rebounding/passing everything
deng is not a bad 3 third option.
people need to stop making it seem like bulls have no one and okc is a stacked team.
westbrook is the second best scorer on the team when durant cant get open he has to call his own play and create something
#1 pick wrote:MJ wasn't more skilled than Lebron. Quite the opposite to be honest.
Re: Let's Clear this up right now: Russell Westbrook
- Al Swearengen
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Re: Let's Clear this up right now: Russell Westbrook
I think Westbrook gets way too much heat on this board. Yeah, he's definitely rough around the edges and has a tendency to try and do too much. But he gets better every year, works his butt off in the offseason, and is a real competitor. About the only knock I have on him is that I think people who say he is at Rose's level are nuts, but that's not even a real criticism of him as a player.
I mean, when you think about it, the list of teams that wouldn't at least consider trading their starting PG for Westbrook would look like this:
1.) Bulls
2.) ...
I mean, when you think about it, the list of teams that wouldn't at least consider trading their starting PG for Westbrook would look like this:
1.) Bulls
2.) ...
Re: Let's Clear this up right now: Russell Westbrook
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Re: Let's Clear this up right now: Russell Westbrook
He has no damn clue what to do when facing a good zone. Not just bad...having no clue at all..
Re: Let's Clear this up right now: Russell Westbrook
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Re: Let's Clear this up right now: Russell Westbrook
sefant77 wrote:He has no damn clue what to do when facing a good zone. Not just bad...having no clue at all..
Dallas threw that at him and a few times, he just couldn't figure out what to do. A lot of people are trying to blame KD for not getting open and being pushed to the 3 point line, but Harden is a very competent offensive player that RW looked over. I wasn't surprised when Brooks benched RW in favor of Harden.
I would love to have him on the Hawks, but that's because they need an explosive scorer and have no real #1 guy anymore. RW is still a good player, but he isn't going to carry a team.
Re: Let's Clear this up right now: Russell Westbrook
- Frank Mulely
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Re: Let's Clear this up right now: Russell Westbrook
Anyway OKC has Harden to bail them out. He's got great court sense. Ultimately he should be the decisionmaker with the ball IMHO.
Shv3d wrote:Frank Mulely wrote:Honestly if this was the 80s
The official motto of RealGM.
Re: Let's Clear this up right now: Russell Westbrook
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Re: Let's Clear this up right now: Russell Westbrook
OP is right. Also, Bulls have a much better spacing than the Thunder. Sefolosha and Perkins allow everything to play help defense on Westbrook and Durant all the time, and they're the only capable players on court of handling 20% or more of USG. Durant has 30% USG that seems about right. You can't throw the extra USG on Perkins, Ibaka and Sefolosha. Westbrook has to take this extra USG, because he has way more offensive liabilities at the starting lineup than any contender on this league.
Thunder should bring in better shooters and play Westbrook-Harden-Durant more. Also, Ibaka should make his jumpshoot more consistent, and maybe develop his three point shooting(which looked fine when he tried).
Thunder should bring in better shooters and play Westbrook-Harden-Durant more. Also, Ibaka should make his jumpshoot more consistent, and maybe develop his three point shooting(which looked fine when he tried).
Re: Let's Clear this up right now: Russell Westbrook
- alucryts
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Re: Let's Clear this up right now: Russell Westbrook
Westbrook is someone who takes way too many bad shots. His own former coach Ron Adams (now on the Bulls) has said that Westbrook likes to get his points. On top of that, looking at the major Thunder players half court efficiency ranked by most efficient to least (possessions taken per game in parenthesis):
1) Harden 1.04 ppp (10.57)
2) Durant 0.987 ppp (25.1)
3) Ibaka 0.976 ppp (7.69)
4) Thabo 0.885 ppp (4.29)
5) Westbrook 0.842 ppp (21.1)
6) Perkins 0.814 ppp (7.23)
Westbrook absolutely has to continue to improve as a scorer to justify over 20 possessions a game. Right now he is killing the Thunder when the game slows down to the half court. No one scoring 0.842 ppp should sniff 20 possessions a game.
His best 3 areas in the half court by efficiency are (at least more than 10 shots, no offensive rebounds):
1) Cut to the basket 1.19 ppp (75 shots) -- great
2) Off a screen 1.09 ppp (22 shots) -- great
3) Hand offs 1.0 ppp (33 shots) -- good
His bottom 3 areas with the same restrictions are:
1) Posting up 0.63 ppp (97 shots) --
2) PNR ball handler 0.81 ppp (828 shots) -- very bad
3) Spot up shooting 0.82 ppp (152 shots) -- very bad
Shot totals for top 3 for the 2010-2011 entire season: 130 (5.2% of shots for entire season)
Shot totals for bottom 3 for the 2010-2011 entire season: 1,077 (43% of shots for entire season)
He is absolutely a chucker. The misconception I disagree with is the fact that he cannot improve. He has shown the ability to improve year to year every season. In order to justify his use of 20+ possessions, he NEEDS to get better. What Westbrook is excellent at is transition however. Russell should cram the ball in transition and pick his spots much better in the half court. Instead of posting up 97 times and posting a horrific efficiency, he needs to be setting up other scorers on his team. Part of this falls onto Brooks as well though.
1) Harden 1.04 ppp (10.57)
2) Durant 0.987 ppp (25.1)
3) Ibaka 0.976 ppp (7.69)
4) Thabo 0.885 ppp (4.29)
5) Westbrook 0.842 ppp (21.1)
6) Perkins 0.814 ppp (7.23)
Westbrook absolutely has to continue to improve as a scorer to justify over 20 possessions a game. Right now he is killing the Thunder when the game slows down to the half court. No one scoring 0.842 ppp should sniff 20 possessions a game.
His best 3 areas in the half court by efficiency are (at least more than 10 shots, no offensive rebounds):
1) Cut to the basket 1.19 ppp (75 shots) -- great
2) Off a screen 1.09 ppp (22 shots) -- great
3) Hand offs 1.0 ppp (33 shots) -- good
His bottom 3 areas with the same restrictions are:
1) Posting up 0.63 ppp (97 shots) --
2) PNR ball handler 0.81 ppp (828 shots) -- very bad
3) Spot up shooting 0.82 ppp (152 shots) -- very bad
Shot totals for top 3 for the 2010-2011 entire season: 130 (5.2% of shots for entire season)
Shot totals for bottom 3 for the 2010-2011 entire season: 1,077 (43% of shots for entire season)
He is absolutely a chucker. The misconception I disagree with is the fact that he cannot improve. He has shown the ability to improve year to year every season. In order to justify his use of 20+ possessions, he NEEDS to get better. What Westbrook is excellent at is transition however. Russell should cram the ball in transition and pick his spots much better in the half court. Instead of posting up 97 times and posting a horrific efficiency, he needs to be setting up other scorers on his team. Part of this falls onto Brooks as well though.
Re: Let's Clear this up right now: Russell Westbrook
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Re: Let's Clear this up right now: Russell Westbrook
To me Westbrook is the reincarnation of Steve Francis, they're so similar it's scary. They make the same bone headed decisions and everything.
Re: Let's Clear this up right now: Russell Westbrook
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Re: Let's Clear this up right now: Russell Westbrook
@alucryts nice post. the eye test confirms those stats. I think we will see a much better Westbrook this year, not just because of his improvement, but because Harden will play with him more, thus creating more off the ball opportunities for Westbrook.
Re: Let's Clear this up right now: Russell Westbrook
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Re: Let's Clear this up right now: Russell Westbrook
I agree with your assessment alucryts. Westbrook has to have better shot selection. I did notice though that he's fairly efficient on off ball plays. This is just more evidence that the team (and Westbrook) would benefit immensely by having a second ball handler on the court with him. Westbrook is a great off ball player, even when he's not scoring he does 'Russ things' i.e. crash offensive boards, etc. This hasn't been explored nearly enough by the Thunder coaching staff.
And while he does need to have better decision making, the coaching staff and offensive game plan in general does Russ no favors in the half court.
And while he does need to have better decision making, the coaching staff and offensive game plan in general does Russ no favors in the half court.
Re: Let's Clear this up right now: Russell Westbrook
- alucryts
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Re: Let's Clear this up right now: Russell Westbrook
As another Westbrook thread morphs into a discussion on the Bulls and Thunder, I'll re-post this again:
Westbrook holds the Thunder offense back quite clearly to me. Either way he has a lot more room to improve, and to call him a final product today would be ludicrous. I look forward to him improving this year.
alucryts wrote:Bulls starting 5: Rose - Bogans - Deng - Boozer - Noah
halfcourt: 0.947 ppp on 71.47 possessions a game
Thunder starting 5 with Thabo: Westbrook - Thabo - Durant - Ibaka - Perkins
halfcourt: 0.913 ppp on 65.41 possessions a game
Thunder starting 5 with Harden: Westbrook - Harden - Durant - Ibaka - Perkins
halfcourt: 0.933 ppp on 71.69 possessions a game
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
Rose supporting cast: Bogans - Deng - Boozer - Noah
halfcourt: 0.941 ppp on 47.47 possessions a game
Westbrook supporting cast 1: Thabo - Durant - Ibaka - Perkins
halfcourt: 0.947 ppp on 44.31 possessions a game
Westbrook supporting cast 2: Harden - Durant - Ibaka - Perkins
halfcourt: 0.972 ppp on 50.59 possessions a game
Westbrook holds the Thunder offense back quite clearly to me. Either way he has a lot more room to improve, and to call him a final product today would be ludicrous. I look forward to him improving this year.
Re: Let's Clear this up right now: Russell Westbrook
- alucryts
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Re: Let's Clear this up right now: Russell Westbrook
slick_watts wrote:I agree with your assessment alucryts. Westbrook has to have better shot selection. I did notice though that he's fairly efficient on off ball plays. This is just more evidence that the team (and Westbrook) would benefit immensely by having a second ball handler on the court with him. Westbrook is a great off ball player, even when he's not scoring he does 'Russ things' i.e. crash offensive boards, etc. This hasn't been explored nearly enough by the Thunder coaching staff.
And while he does need to have better decision making, the coaching staff and offensive game plan in general does Russ no favors in the half court.
I absolutely agree that Brooks NEEDS to help out Westbrook here. Teach him and show him the way, and for christ's sake call better plays. Westbrook needs to find himself in the half court right now because he is not good there right now. Is it talent level that holds him back? Absolutely not. He needs to learn how to score in the half court, and he needs help from those around him to do it. I have no doubt Thibs was all over Rose's case in teaching him how to score in the half court.