Post Play

Post #1 » by **tsherkin** » Tue Jan 3, 2012 12:20 am

So, here's my seasonal thread about post play. It's not finished, it'll be a running project.

Been taking a look at a bunch of things, bunch of players. Mostly younger, unestablished guys, up-and-comers, but also Dwight and Amare for giggles.

Eventually, this thread will include discussion on Roy Hibbert, Blake Griffin, Andrew Bynum, Greg Monroe, Amare Stoudemire and Dwight Howard. I may add others later on.

EDIT:

Adding LaMarcus Aldridge, Lebron James, Andrew Bogut, Ed Davis, Al Horford and Marc Gasol. Extending bracket to under-30. Adding Durant, even though he barely ever does it (< 8% of his possessions so far this season), just for the lulz.

And if I'm adding Lebron, I should add Melo, because he's a great post scorer, and I never really did say "6'10+ post scorers," just "post play." Other post-up perimeter players welcome if anyone has suggestions.

Point of thread? Describing post offense, discussing how much subtlety there is to the art of scoring in the post and how people who say dumb stuff like "Dwight only scores off of offensive rebounds, lulz" and what-not really don't know anything about how offense works down there.

Another issue I want to dispel is this mythical notion that earlier eras where players are shown in single coverage in the post are examples of poor defense. You look at post scorers today, and they are ROUTINELY found in single coverage. Yes, that includes Dwight. It depends on what the offense is doing, but the defense can't always hard-double before or on the catch, sometimes the offense obligates them to rotate over and contest in the paint, which is no different than older defenses.

Anyway, rant aside, the beginning.

The first player I've been watching is Roy Hibbert.

Hibbert is a clever post player. He's never going to be a dominant scorer because he doesn't threaten you with exceptional offensive rebounding (although he's pretty solid), the ability to draw fouls or extremely high FG%. He doesn't have a diverse offensive repertoire, but he performs pretty well on basic post moves when he gets decent position.

His strongest move is his right-handed hook shot moving into the lane from the low/mid post on the left side. He's also pretty good when he chooses to drive into the paint from there. He'll sometimes show a baseline spin, which works pretty well (he always proves to be quicker than I remember, especially for a 7'2 dude). He also shows a turnaround jumper and a lefty hook, though neither are particularly effective.

On the right block, he shows a face-up jumper and the willingness to drive into the paint. Neither of these are really amazing moves and I haven't seen him spin baseline on the right side yet, but I haven't gone through all of his post ups over the last 2+ seasons.

Hibbert has good first moves. He even has a couple of counters; left side, he likes to fake baseline and then wheel back to the righty hook, and the defense has to respect it because he does have a left-handed hook that occasionally goes. What he really needs is to work on his set of counter moves. Mainly, because he's not an explosive athlete, he's going to need to work HARD on his jumper to about 17, 18 feet. Feet set, no problem, he doesn't even need to work on the turnaround fade, he just needs to get that set face-up J to a comfortable level of efficiency and then he'll be a really dangerous high-teens scorer. Right now, he gets left open at the elbow and in the top of the circle a lot and he cannot come through on those shots with any consistency.

Probably the best thing Hibbert has shown from the post (more last year than so far this season) is his passing. This year, he's seen a lot of low post action and he's been in situations where he's made a move and had a good look at the rim, so he's taken the shot. Not a lot of plays where him passing is the gameplan, he's making the catch so close to the hoop that it makes no sense to pass. Last year, they were using him a lot more in the high post, and he was showing off his passing, which proved to be a very effective tool. For that to happen more frequently this year, though, it's as I said above: he really, really needs to work on his jumper inside of 18 feet, or he's not going to draw the defender away from the rim with any consistency to open up the interior.

Stunnaboy2K11 · Post #2 » by **Stunnaboy2K11** » Tue Jan 3, 2012 12:32 am

If you haven't done so already, would love to see a breakdown between perimeter and big men post play.

Post #3 » by **tsherkin** » Tue Jan 3, 2012 12:36 am

Stunnaboy2K11 wrote:If you haven't done so already, would love to see a breakdown between perimeter and big men post play.

Heh, one piece at a time, Stunna. Let me finish this project before I start tackling that one.

SideshowBob · Post #4 » by **SideshowBob** » Tue Jan 3, 2012 12:41 am

Looking forward to reading the discussion in this thread

Post #5 » by **tsherkin** » Tue Jan 3, 2012 12:41 am

If anyone wants to chime in with another sub-27 player that I should consider, be my guest. I know that Amare doesn't fit that mould, but who else might I consider as far as mid/low post threats under 27?

EDIT: I ask because I'm sure I am missing at least one player. Doesn't have to be a guy who is projected as a big-time volume scorer. Like Hibbert, I'm looking for young guys who can score a little, pass a little, etc. That's why I sneakily added Monroe into my plan mid-process. Is Jerebko more of a post or perimeter guy? And hell, if Bargs keeps this crap up, I'm going to have to look at him too, confound it...

Stunnaboy2K11 · Post #6 » by **Stunnaboy2K11** » Tue Jan 3, 2012 12:46 am

tsherkin wrote:
Stunnaboy2K11 wrote:If you haven't done so already, would love to see a breakdown between perimeter and big men post play.

Heh, one piece at a time, Stunna. Let me finish this project before I start tackling that one.

Haha aight, if your still looking for someone Cousins would be a nice guy to study (if Westfail can play him more)

Post #7 » by **tsherkin** » Tue Jan 3, 2012 12:49 am

Stunnaboy2K11 wrote:Haha aight, if your still looking for someone Cousins would be a nice guy to study (if Westfail can play him more)

Cousins is more of a perimeter big, and a bad one on offense right now, no less. Until that changes, he doesn't really fit into the point of this study.

Post #8 » by **slick_watts** » Tue Jan 3, 2012 12:51 am

He does not fit your age criteria but Luis Scola is one of my favorite players to watch whenever he gets into the post.

Post #9 » by **tsherkin** » Tue Jan 3, 2012 12:53 am

Yeah, Scola's too old, but he is a savvy post player. High post, mostly, but he's got some hooks on the block that are fun to watch and my word, he can pass out of the post very, very well...

Stunnaboy2K11 · Post #10 » by **Stunnaboy2K11** » Tue Jan 3, 2012 12:53 am

tsherkin wrote:
Stunnaboy2K11 wrote:Haha aight, if your still looking for someone Cousins would be a nice guy to study (if Westfail can play him more)

Cousins is more of a perimeter big, and a bad one on offense right now, no less. Until that changes, he doesn't really fit into the point of this study.

Greg Monroe?

edit nvm just saw his name on the list.

I'm actually stomped trying to think of another name.

Post #11 » by **tsherkin** » Tue Jan 3, 2012 12:54 am

Stunnaboy2K11 wrote:Greg Monroe?

He's already on the list, see the OP.

But very much so. His passing intrigues me.

Stunnaboy2K11 · Post #12 » by **Stunnaboy2K11** » Tue Jan 3, 2012 12:56 am

tsherkin wrote:
Stunnaboy2K11 wrote:Greg Monroe?

He's already on the list, see the OP.

But very much so. His passing intrigues me.

Yeah just saw.

You know what, I'm watching the raptors game and f it, Bargs looks amazing. You should do one on him.

Post #13 » by **tsherkin** » Tue Jan 3, 2012 12:58 am

Stunnaboy2K11 wrote:You know what, I'm watching the raptors game and f it, Bargs looks amazing. You should do one on him.

tsherkin wrote:If anyone wants to chime in with another sub-27 player that I should consider, be my guest. I know that Amare doesn't fit that mould, but who else might I consider as far as mid/low post threats under 27?

EDIT: I ask because I'm sure I am missing at least one player. Doesn't have to be a guy who is projected as a big-time volume scorer. Like Hibbert, I'm looking for young guys who can score a little, pass a little, etc. That's why I sneakily added Monroe into my plan mid-process. Is Jerebko more of a post or perimeter guy? And hell, if Bargs keeps this crap up, I'm going to have to look at him too, confound it...

SideshowBob · Post #14 » by **SideshowBob** » Tue Jan 3, 2012 1:01 am

I know he's a perimeter guy, but what about Lebron? Just to see how its working for him

Stunnaboy2K11 · Post #15 » by **Stunnaboy2K11** » Tue Jan 3, 2012 1:01 am

tsherkin wrote:
Stunnaboy2K11 wrote:You know what, I'm watching the raptors game and f it, Bargs looks amazing. You should do one on him.

tsherkin wrote:If anyone wants to chime in with another sub-27 player that I should consider, be my guest. I know that Amare doesn't fit that mould, but who else might I consider as far as mid/low post threats under 27?

EDIT: I ask because I'm sure I am missing at least one player. Doesn't have to be a guy who is projected as a big-time volume scorer. Like Hibbert, I'm looking for young guys who can score a little, pass a little, etc. That's why I sneakily added Monroe into my plan mid-process. Is Jerebko more of a post or perimeter guy? And hell, if Bargs keeps this crap up, I'm going to have to look at him too, confound it...

That's what I meant, don't care if he keeps it up he's been amazing so far and is actually starting to not be allergic to the paint

Post #16 » by **tsherkin** » Tue Jan 3, 2012 1:05 am

Let's see...

I suppose I could talk about Horford. No one of interest on Boston, Charlotte, Chicago, Cleveland, Dallas. Nene's too old. Already doing Monroe, considering Jerebko (at least I have to look at his possessions and see if he counts). No one of interest on the Warriors. Jordan Hill isn't much of a scorer. Already talking about Hibbert, Blake and Bynum.

Marc Gasol is a touch older, but then so is Amare. So maybe I'll look into his game.

I guess I might be inclined to look at Lebron, actually, if he keeps this up. Little outside the age bracket, but still. Maybe I'll extend it to under 30 for the sake of consistency.

Aldridge. I've been forgetting LaMarcus Aldridge.

disoblige · Post #17 » by **disoblige** » Tue Jan 3, 2012 1:05 am

Ed Davis post play. If he has any.

Post #18 » by **tsherkin** » Tue Jan 3, 2012 1:06 am

SideshowBob wrote:I know he's a perimeter guy, but what about Lebron? Just to see how its working for him

Yeah. I'll look at his post game because it's been a big addition to his game so far this season and is so important to his development.

paul · Post #19 » by **paul** » Tue Jan 3, 2012 1:07 am

tsherkin wrote:If anyone wants to chime in with another sub-27 player that I should consider, be my guest. I know that Amare doesn't fit that mould, but who else might I consider as far as mid/low post threats under 27?

EDIT: I ask because I'm sure I am missing at least one player. Doesn't have to be a guy who is projected as a big-time volume scorer. Like Hibbert, I'm looking for young guys who can score a little, pass a little, etc. That's why I sneakily added Monroe into my plan mid-process. Is Jerebko more of a post or perimeter guy? And hell, if Bargs keeps this crap up, I'm going to have to look at him too, confound it...

Bogut turned 27 last month and scores almost exclusively in the post, I'm surprised he wasn't on your radar?

Post #20 » by **tsherkin** » Tue Jan 3, 2012 1:09 am

disoblige wrote:Ed Davis post play. If he has any.

Yeah, that's not a bad idea. He runs well in transition, cuts well off of the ball, works out pretty strong as the roll-man and last year, he was competent in post-ups (though he had under 50 all year). Looks pretty good at off-ball post action, anyway. Not really feeling "offensive force" out of him, though, he's too raw. But he'll contribute, that's for sure.