Post Play

[tsherkin]

Bogut turned 27 last month and scores almost exclusively in the post, I'm surprised he wasn't on your radar?

I thought about him, but he's not particularly good. He passes well but he can't shoot beyond 10 feet and doesn't get a lot of touches as a scorer. I could look at him, though; inside 10 feet, he's pretty reasonable, so I guess it's not a lot different than Hibbert, and now that I'm extending the age bracket to under-30, he fits in well enough.

[tsherkin]

As a sidebar preview of Lebron, he's almost doubled the proportion of his possessions with which he posts up and he's been scoring very efficiently so far. I've seen a bunch of his post possessions already and he's looked crisper and more decisive down there than he did last season. Much more comfortable.

[Antetokounmpo]

Great thread. One guy you definitely should add, is Joakim Noah. I'm pretty sure you just forgot him. Others that you might want to add are Darko, Asik, Gortat, although these three are probably a level below the others mentioned. Anyway, take a look at Noah. Will be following this thread for sure, nice idea.

[slick_watts]

Al Jefferson's synergy #'s on post ups look terrible so far, wonder what's going on with him.

[tsherkin]

Great thread. One guy you definitely should add, is Joakim Noah. I'm pretty sure you just forgot him. Others that you might want to add are Darko, Asik, Gortat, although these three are probably a level below the others mentioned. Anyway, take a look at Noah. Will be following this thread for sure, nice idea.

Might add Noah, we'll see, I'll review him. Definitely not adding Darko. Probably not going to look at Asik because he's more a bench player and not getting enough minutes. Gortat I'll look at, but I have my suspicion that he's more of a pick-and-pop and spot-up guy rather than post iso.

[tsherkin]

Al Jefferson's synergy #'s on post ups look terrible so far, wonder what's going on with him.

That will be interesting to see.

[amarefomvp]

id love to hear who you think are the best non big men post players.

[Antetokounmpo]

Great thread. One guy you definitely should add, is Joakim Noah. I'm pretty sure you just forgot him. Others that you might want to add are Darko, Asik, Gortat, although these three are probably a level below the others mentioned. Anyway, take a look at Noah. Will be following this thread for sure, nice idea.

Might add Noah, we'll see, I'll review him. Definitely not adding Darko. Probably not going to look at Asik because he's more a bench player and not getting enough minutes. Gortat I'll look at, but I have my suspicion that he's more of a pick-and-pop and spot-up guy rather than post iso.

I agree on Asik and Gortat, but Noah definitely belongs to the up-and-coming centers list. He's not much of an offensive threat and his playing style looks rather goofy, but he's really solid. He's a really good rebounder and he gets most of his points from second shot opportunities or off broken plays. He has very few go-to moves, mostly he goes quite simple hook shots. He's also quite good in the high post when facing the basket. He's quite quick for his size, handles the ball well and is a good passer, too. He's also developing his mid range shot, which looks absolutely atrocious, but it's been said that he worked on his shot during the offseason plus he definitely looks a lot more comfortable taking it this season than in the past.

Look him up.

[tsherkin]

Up-and-comers, sure. Noah screens well and he's a wonderful defender and rebounder. Dunno if he fits into this thread, though, because it's more about offense and especially play in the post. Noah does most of his work as an offensive rebounder and between 15 and 23 feet from the basket as a screener, he's not really an offensive weapon on the block or as a high post guy, though he does pass well. He's an excellent player, I just don't think he matches the intent of my thread. He's also frustratingly hesitant to pull the trigger on the mid-range J, which makes him an inconsistent threat on the roll.

I've been watching a lot of Chicago tape lately because of a pick-and-roll thread that alucryts has going on the Chicago board (which is actually good reading material, BTW), I'm just not feeling Noah as a component of this thread because he's not really a "post player," per se. On that team, it's Boozer.

[Antetokounmpo]

Up-and-comers, sure. Noah screens well and he's a wonderful defender and rebounder. Dunno if he fits into this thread, though, because it's more about offense and especially play in the post. Noah does most of his work as an offensive rebounder and between 15 and 23 feet from the basket as a screener, he's not really an offensive weapon on the block or as a high post guy, though he does pass well. He's an excellent player, I just don't think he matches the intent of my thread. He's also frustratingly hesitant to pull the trigger on the mid-range J, which makes him an inconsistent threat on the roll.

I've been watching a lot of Chicago tape lately because of a pick-and-roll thread that alucryts has going on the Chicago board (which is actually good reading material, BTW), I'm just not feeling Noah as a component of this thread because he's not really a "post player," per se. On that team, it's Boozer.

True that, I haven't watched a lot of Pacers basketball so I really don't know how differently Noah and Hibbert are used. I actually thought that Hibbert plays a similar role for Pacers as Noah does for the Bulls, my bad.

[tsherkin]

Hibbert gets post isos, that's where a lot of his shots come from. His shooting volume is limited by minutes played, not by per-minute shot rate. Noah's basically a 17-18% USG player, Hibbert 21-24%.

[UGA Hayes]

Nice analysis of Hibbert. He has definitely exceeded my expectations as a post up player even if he isn't the most fluid or creative guy around. Wasn't super impressed by his post moves in college as he had trouble holding his base from time to time and sometimes his feet would just look too clumsy/deadlegged, and he was overweight to boot. Plus it can be somewhat difficult to evaluate post play in Georgetown's offense as big men tend to be high post passers. That being said from the shoulder up he did look to have some potential and seems to have shown the work ethic and mentality to work through his early career troubles that have sidelined other big men. At his height if you can become just pollished enough you can go a long way.

[tsherkin]

Yeah, like I said, I've been impressed by his passing and how he doesn't try to do too much. At his height, all he really needs is a face-up jumper and a little more attention to finishing point-blank (he did just fine last season, has struggled early this year) and he'll be a solid 16-18 ppg scorer, depending on the minutes he can hold down. If he can get to 33 mpg, he'll be a great option for them at the 5.

At 7'2, you don't need to be super-fluid or creative, keeping it basic is actually a virtue. That was one thing I always enjoyed about Yao: he didn't get fancy. He looked to turn and shoot over you and only really got away from that if he really, really had to. Looks like Hibbert subscribes to the same basic approach.

[tsherkin]

OK, so I'm through Lebron's post-ups. Not that many this year, only 18, but that's still like 14% of his possessions so far. Basic premise so far is that when he makes one move or one move and then a quick counter, he looks good. When he tries to get too cute, he looks awful. He had some weak footwork on a baseline turn for a hook shot on the right side that ultimately went. He had some really weak action on the left side where he tried this cutesy up-and-under.

Typically, though, he's getting the ball, backing in and then making a quick move to either the baseline or in towards the key. Getting a lot of short jumpers as a result, but he's also drawing fouls and getting (and taking) opportunities to drive hard to the rim. He's looked really good when he's dipped down into the post against defenders of various sizes. Didn't handle a double from Boston very well, but he's actually not turning the ball over very often down there.

Definitely some encouraging signs from Lebron, and for Miami fans. Some of those post-ups were against Boston, and he looked very confident and assertive in the post there.

[tsherkin]

Lebron is 9/15 across 18 possessions. On the other 3 possessions, he had 2 turnovers (both as a result of double teams, one just losing it and the second on a cross-court pass to the opposite elbow) and one drawn foul (2 FTA), and he has three and-ones as well (mostly against Dallas).

We've seen inside pivots to face-up jumpers, he's showing a spin baseline and towards the key. He's showing that he really likes to turn baseline and take a jumper (on either side of the key) and he's showing good aggression getting to the hoop. He's showing that he can move pretty well along the baseline, moving through the cross screen and then curling around to get a nice low-block position.

He's also showing, and this is nice, wing post-ups. I call them Magic Posts for lack of a better term, and because Magic made a living doing this, starting his possession with his back to the basket 20 feet from the rim, then backing in and making a play from there. He had a couple of those against Dallas. One ended with a move turning in towards the key and missing a fadeaway, the other where he drove towards the elbow, spun baseline and hit a layup while drawing the foul.

So it's early, but we've seen him in a variety of different post possessions. I wish he'd do it more, I wish he'd do it on about 20% of his possessions, but this is an excellent start for LBJ.

[-Kees-]

I love the idea for the thread. Post play in by far my favorite part of basketball, I just love when someone takes over the game from the low post.

Brook Lopez is a guy who has looked good in the post, if your looking for more players, he's one to talk about.

[tsherkin]

Nah, BroPez won't get any love here because he's out of action at the moment. If he comes back early enough later in the season, then I'll add him in. He's alright, that's for sure.

[bhartsell]

I know you'll do Aldridge but I'm irrationally anxious to see you do him--I hope he's your next focus. LMA fascinates me because it seems like he has the potential to be the best inside-out guy, but he doesn't seem to get great position and against Nene he couldn't budge an inch. This season he looks a lot more jump shot-ty. I'm interested in hearing your analysis.

[tsherkin]

Sure, I'll do LMA this year next, and then I'll spend some time having a look at him over the course of last season. Most of these are going to be looking at how the guys have looked so far this season, but a couple of them, like LMA, had break-out years last season that bear investigation.

[Bertrob]

Rondo has some very nice post moves
Doesn't go down there a lot but he can post up big guards like John Wall with success
Has a nice arsenal of hooks