Official 2011-2012 MVP Discussion Thread - Part 3

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Re: Official 2011-2012 MVP Discussion Thread - Part 3 

Post#1841 » by HurricaneKid » Wed Apr 18, 2012 8:04 pm

UNR Session wrote:
TRG wrote: Anyone people who want to undermine how important all of the things LeBron brings to the Heat just because he plays with 2 other high caliber players are kidding themselves.


No one is undermining LeBrons importance to the team. But a lineup of Chalmers/Wade/Battier/Bosh and Anthony is still the 2nd or 3rd best team in the East. Easily. Not "at best the 8th seed."


Funny, that team has been outscored by a fair amount this year. Meaning they have been ~7-10.
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Re: Official 2011-2012 MVP Discussion Thread - Part 3 

Post#1842 » by Jazzfan12 » Wed Apr 18, 2012 8:49 pm

ShowTimeERA wrote:Lebrons high usage along with wade is the reason why his teammates lack confidence and ability to create. Mike miller, ud, Shane, chalmers, turiaf, etc is a good supporting cast. But I wonder why most of them are having a terrible season if we go by the stats. Bosh and co alone would be a playoff team in the east.


Mike Miller hasn't had confidence in four years and Battier and Haslem have been bad for a while and Chalmers was never good. It had nothing to do with LeBron.
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Re: Official 2011-2012 MVP Discussion Thread - Part 3 

Post#1843 » by toodles23 » Wed Apr 18, 2012 8:56 pm

ShowTimeERA wrote:Lebrons high usage along with wade is the reason why his teammates lack confidence and ability to create. Mike miller, ud, Shane, chalmers, turiaf, etc is a good supporting cast. But I wonder why most of them are having a terrible season if we go by the stats. Bosh and co alone would be a playoff team in the east.

A **** KOBE fan complaining about usage rate? :lol: And pumping up **** role players like MM, Battier, Chalmers, and Turiaf? Even UD, who's normally pretty good, has been god awful this season. Kobe is leading the league in usage rate by FAR this season, despite having the two best frontcourt players in the conference on his team.

The only guy you listed who has a chance of breaking into the Lakers rotation is Chalmers or MM, but not because they're good.
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Re: Official 2011-2012 MVP Discussion Thread - Part 3 

Post#1844 » by Dat Pass » Wed Apr 18, 2012 9:04 pm

toodles23 wrote:The only guy you listed who has a chance of breaking into the Lakers rotation is Chalmers or MM, but not because they're good.


Actually, Chalmers, Battier, Haslem and Miller would all see just as many minutes as they get in Miami. LA has the worst bench in the league by far.
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Re: Official 2011-2012 MVP Discussion Thread - Part 3 

Post#1845 » by ShowTimeERA » Wed Apr 18, 2012 9:12 pm

penquin11 wrote:Yeah except Wade doesn't rebound 15 balls a game, doesn't average over 2 blocks a game, and isn't the best defensive player in basketball- to be realistic Howard is FAR superior to wade in terms of value. Not only is Howard more of an impact defensively but he also is efficient on offense. Chris Bosh is not a top 12 talent by any means- he can't defend worth sh*t- essentially I think of him as an athletic Luis Scola- because that is what he brings- all offense- no defense. Meanwhile it can be argued that Durant plays alongside some of the best players at each given position:
Westbrook is a elite talent at PG
Harden could be a #1 scoring option on any other team in the NBA- and he is SUPER efficient.
Ibaka is the best shot blocker in the NBA and a nice midrange catch and shoot option who also can contribute through putbacks.
Perkins is one of the best low post defenders in the NBA.
Reggie Jackson and Eric Maynor fill out what is the best PG reserve squad in the NBA
Their backup SG is an ELITE defender.........

The Heat meanwhile struggle from the following short commings:
PG play is inconsistent and substandard
They lack depth at every position outside of SG
They lack a low post defender of any kind or a effective post man on offense
Chris Bosh defends with the same intensity of Bargs
They have a center named Joel Anthony who can't catch a cold- he wouldn't have even made the Thunder team.
They have only 1 quality bench player- Mike Miller- who is frequently injured and overpaid.

Lebron James does a hell of allot more for the Heat than Durant for the Thunder. The Thunder would be a playoff team regardless of whether they had Durant or not, and they very well could be a top 3 seed without Durant at that. The Heat on the other hand would be the 8th seed at BEST without Lebron- likely missing out on the Playoffs to teams with more depth. If Wade was injured and Lebron wasn't on the team you might as well chalk up an Loss for that game given the lack of depth that the Heat have.


So do we dismiss the fact that Wade is a clutch performer and has been vital for MIA this season in the 4th quarter where Lebron routinely struggles. Do we dismiss the fact that Howard can shoot you out of games with his poor free throw shooting? Do we dismiss the fact that Wade with Lebron form one of the best, if not best perimeter defenses in the league? Do we dismiss the fact that wade puts so much pressure on opposing defenses both in halfcourt offense or on the break? Do we dismiss the notion that Wade is a proven playoff performer, not to mention finals performer.

My comparison was just based on Lebron playing alongside another top 5 player, something Durant does not have at his disposal.
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Re: Official 2011-2012 MVP Discussion Thread - Part 3 

Post#1846 » by Ettorefm » Wed Apr 18, 2012 9:35 pm

My comparison was just based on Lebron playing alongside another top 5 player, something Durant does not have at his disposal.

.
Are you COMPLETELY SURE? Specially this season?
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Re: Official 2011-2012 MVP Discussion Thread - Part 3 

Post#1847 » by SideshowBob » Wed Apr 18, 2012 9:39 pm

ShowTimeERA wrote:So do we dismiss the fact that Wade is a clutch performer and has been vital for MIA this season in the 4th quarter where Lebron routinely struggles.


This entire narrative is overblown. I've listed several links to NBA.com's advanced stats page which can clear this up.

http://tinyurl.com/6tmvsx6

James averages 5.4 points in the fourth quarter, in 7.8 minutes, on 56.7% TS

In games without Wade, that jumps up to 8.2 points, in 7.9 minutes, on 59.5% TS

http://tinyurl.com/6udrlpx

Wade averages 5.6 points in the fourth quarter, in 9.0 minutes, on 51.2% TS

http://tinyurl.com/86gt6m3

James averages 28.7 points per 36 minutes of clutch time on 54.7% TS, in a sample of 104 minutes.

http://tinyurl.com/blhz9c2

Wade averages 22.8 points per 36 minutes of clutch time on 49.5% TS, in a sample of 87 minutes.

Now, factor in the fact that James actually IMPROVES his rebounding (shoots up to 11.8 per 36 from his usual 7.6), turns the ball over far less (TO% drops down to 7.08 from 10.64), maintains his assist rate, increases his usage (meaning he actually takes more shots in crunch time, not less), and pumps up the defensive intensity, it's absolutely laughable to assert that Lebron has struggled while Wade has been the clutch performer, when the evidence obviously suggests the opposite.
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Re: Official 2011-2012 MVP Discussion Thread - Part 3 

Post#1848 » by arsenic » Wed Apr 18, 2012 10:01 pm

SideshowBob wrote:
ShowTimeERA wrote:So do we dismiss the fact that Wade is a clutch performer and has been vital for MIA this season in the 4th quarter where Lebron routinely struggles.


This entire narrative is overblown. I've listed several links to NBA.com's advanced stats page which can clear this up.

http://tinyurl.com/6tmvsx6

James averages 5.4 points in the fourth quarter, in 7.8 minutes, on 56.7% TS

In games without Wade, that jumps up to 8.2 points, in 7.9 minutes, on 59.5% TS

http://tinyurl.com/6udrlpx

Wade averages 5.6 points in the fourth quarter, in 9.0 minutes, on 51.2% TS

http://tinyurl.com/86gt6m3

James averages 28.7 points per 36 minutes of clutch time on 54.7% TS, in a sample of 104 minutes.

http://tinyurl.com/blhz9c2

Wade averages 22.8 points per 36 minutes of clutch time on 49.5% TS, in a sample of 87 minutes.

Now, factor in the fact that James actually IMPROVES his rebounding (shoots up to 11.8 per 36 from his usual 7.6), turns the ball over far less (TO% drops down to 7.08 from 10.64), maintains his assist rate, increases his usage (meaning he actually takes more shots in crunch time, not less), and pumps up the defensive intensity, it's absolutely laughable to assert that Lebron has struggled while Wade has been the clutch performer, when the evidence obviously suggests the opposite.

AH, THANK YOU. Even some Heat fans don't get it, it's like they see 3 game winners from Wade (one of which Lebron assisted), and assume Lebron has not done **** all season long to close in 40 other wins. It's disgusting and couldn't be further from the truth. Overblown is an understatement.
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Re: Official 2011-2012 MVP Discussion Thread - Part 3 

Post#1849 » by dream_catcher_9 » Wed Apr 18, 2012 10:09 pm

penquin11 wrote:
UNR Session wrote:
penquin11 wrote:The Thunder would be a playoff team regardless of whether they had Durant or not, and they very well could be a top 3 seed without Durant at that. The Heat on the other hand would be the 8th seed at BEST without Lebron


:lol:

:rofl:


Harden easily is a 20ppg+ scorer if he is utilized as a #1 option and Russell can throw in an additional 24ppg- that alone makes the Thunder owning to one of the highest scoring duo's in the NBA, I'm not saying that Durant isn't valuable- Im saying that he isn't the difference between the Thunder making the playoffs or not- perhaps the Thunder being a top 3 team without him is too far- but they certainly would still be a playoff team.



I agree with you, and also bastillon who calls KD a role player. Durant doesn't will his team to anything except in the flow of the game scoring. He isn't the type of player to carry his team on his back and win a game. He doesn't have the mindset or all-around game to do that.

A roster of...

Westbrook/Fisher
Harden/decent scoring bench player
Sefolosha/Cook/Ivey
Ibaka/Collison
Perkins/Mohammed

is still a top 4 team out West.

There are a lot of nights where I don't even think KD is the best or even 2nd best player on his own team. That speaks volumes to his MVP value.
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Re: Official 2011-2012 MVP Discussion Thread - Part 3 

Post#1850 » by BBgun » Wed Apr 18, 2012 10:21 pm

lol Arsenic, what do you expect from Lebron haters though? They focus on a few 4th quarter blunders and make it seem like he doesn't perform in the 4th. Sideshowbob posted that link which shows that James is in the top 5 in 4th quarter crunch time scoring per 48. His rebound and assist numbers per 48 in crunchtime are 15 and 9 respectively.

For comparison, Durant averages 14 rebs and under ONE assist per 48 mins in that same scenario. So even if he scores more than Lebron, James does so many more other things when the game is on the line. 15 boards, 9 assists per 48 when the game actually maters! Thats insane. But of course, people only focus on those games where he doesn't score much down the stretch (when Wade is taking all the shots) and they attack him as being useless in the clutch.

And Showtimeera, do we dismiss the fact that while Westbrook isn't as good overall as Wade, he still averages close to as many or more points, assists, and rebounds as Wade (per 36), and is also a great defender? Do we dismiss the idea that when you factor in that Bosh and Harden are basically a wash, OCK still has Ibaka left and Miami has nobody even close to him as their 4th best player?
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Re: Official 2011-2012 MVP Discussion Thread - Part 3 

Post#1851 » by RocketPower23 » Wed Apr 18, 2012 10:33 pm

Sideshow, could you post numbers that reflect clutch numbers in the final 5 minutes?
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Re: Official 2011-2012 MVP Discussion Thread - Part 3 

Post#1852 » by BBgun » Wed Apr 18, 2012 10:36 pm

http://www.82games.com/1112/CSORT11.HTM

thats the link he posted. Hasn't been updated since April 1, but apparently Lebron is now up to over 38 ppg per 48 mins after dropping 17 in under 5 mins on Monday.
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Re: Official 2011-2012 MVP Discussion Thread - Part 3 

Post#1853 » by SideshowBob » Wed Apr 18, 2012 11:20 pm

RocketPower23 wrote:Sideshow, could you post numbers that reflect clutch numbers in the final 5 minutes?


The second set of links I posted was exactly that.

SideshowBob wrote:http://tinyurl.com/86gt6m3

James averages 28.7 points per 36 minutes of clutch time on 54.7% TS, in a sample of 104 minutes.

http://tinyurl.com/blhz9c2

Wade averages 22.8 points per 36 minutes of clutch time on 49.5% TS, in a sample of 87 minutes.


BBgun wrote:http://www.82games.com/1112/CSORT11.HTM

thats the link he posted. Hasn't been updated since April 1, but apparently Lebron is now up to over 38 ppg per 48 mins after dropping 17 in under 5 mins on Monday.


The links I posted were from NBA.com which updates the numbers daily.
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Re: Official 2011-2012 MVP Discussion Thread - Part 3 

Post#1854 » by sonicFLAME6 » Wed Apr 18, 2012 11:29 pm

SideshowBob wrote:
ShowTimeERA wrote:So do we dismiss the fact that Wade is a clutch performer and has been vital for MIA this season in the 4th quarter where Lebron routinely struggles.


This entire narrative is overblown. I've listed several links to NBA.com's advanced stats page which can clear this up.

http://tinyurl.com/6tmvsx6

James averages 5.4 points in the fourth quarter, in 7.8 minutes, on 56.7% TS

In games without Wade, that jumps up to 8.2 points, in 7.9 minutes, on 59.5% TS

http://tinyurl.com/6udrlpx

Wade averages 5.6 points in the fourth quarter, in 9.0 minutes, on 51.2% TS

http://tinyurl.com/86gt6m3

James averages 28.7 points per 36 minutes of clutch time on 54.7% TS, in a sample of 104 minutes.

http://tinyurl.com/blhz9c2

Wade averages 22.8 points per 36 minutes of clutch time on 49.5% TS, in a sample of 87 minutes.

Now, factor in the fact that James actually IMPROVES his rebounding (shoots up to 11.8 per 36 from his usual 7.6), turns the ball over far less (TO% drops down to 7.08 from 10.64), maintains his assist rate, increases his usage (meaning he actually takes more shots in crunch time, not less), and pumps up the defensive intensity, it's absolutely laughable to assert that Lebron has struggled while Wade has been the clutch performer, when the evidence obviously suggests the opposite.


Trust me I've seen you post many numbers and facts and how LeBron performs vs top 5 defenses and bottom 5 defenses. LeBrons numbers in crunch time, his scoring in the 4th. Many stats, very impressive, but a lot of the posters here just ignore them and hit us with the usual media mumbo jumbo and BS posts. It's the same crap over and over, some posters use the Wade factor, some jumped on Durant when they beat MIA in OKC, a guy saying LeBron has only had 1 decent game on mational tv and there's even a guy in here campaigning for the Bulls team MVP lol.
Yet not one of those fools ever has any rebuttal with actual facts or evidence. It's not only comical but pretty annoying now. But I guess that's their agenda and we have to learn to just ignore them and eventually they will go away.
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Re: Official 2011-2012 MVP Discussion Thread - Part 3 

Post#1855 » by C-izMe » Wed Apr 18, 2012 11:47 pm

What is Lebron on last possessions. I'm pretty sure that's where his not clutch perception comes from.




And how is CP3 not getting more consideration.
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Re: Official 2011-2012 MVP Discussion Thread - Part 3 

Post#1856 » by Bank Shot » Wed Apr 18, 2012 11:53 pm

SideshowBob wrote:
ShowTimeERA wrote:So do we dismiss the fact that Wade is a clutch performer and has been vital for MIA this season in the 4th quarter where Lebron routinely struggles.


This entire narrative is overblown. I've listed several links to NBA.com's advanced stats page which can clear this up.

http://tinyurl.com/6tmvsx6

James averages 5.4 points in the fourth quarter, in 7.8 minutes, on 56.7% TS

In games without Wade, that jumps up to 8.2 points, in 7.9 minutes, on 59.5% TS

http://tinyurl.com/6udrlpx

Wade averages 5.6 points in the fourth quarter, in 9.0 minutes, on 51.2% TS

http://tinyurl.com/86gt6m3

James averages 28.7 points per 36 minutes of clutch time on 54.7% TS, in a sample of 104 minutes.

http://tinyurl.com/blhz9c2

Wade averages 22.8 points per 36 minutes of clutch time on 49.5% TS, in a sample of 87 minutes.

Now, factor in the fact that James actually IMPROVES his rebounding (shoots up to 11.8 per 36 from his usual 7.6), turns the ball over far less (TO% drops down to 7.08 from 10.64), maintains his assist rate, increases his usage (meaning he actually takes more shots in crunch time, not less), and pumps up the defensive intensity, it's absolutely laughable to assert that Lebron has struggled while Wade has been the clutch performer, when the evidence obviously suggests the opposite.


This needs to be posted in just about every LeBron thread. This is troll destroyer.
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Re: Official 2011-2012 MVP Discussion Thread - Part 3 

Post#1857 » by JLei » Thu Apr 19, 2012 12:52 am

SideshowBob wrote:
ShowTimeERA wrote:So do we dismiss the fact that Wade is a clutch performer and has been vital for MIA this season in the 4th quarter where Lebron routinely struggles.


This entire narrative is overblown. I've listed several links to NBA.com's advanced stats page which can clear this up.

http://tinyurl.com/6tmvsx6

James averages 5.4 points in the fourth quarter, in 7.8 minutes, on 56.7% TS

In games without Wade, that jumps up to 8.2 points, in 7.9 minutes, on 59.5% TS

http://tinyurl.com/6udrlpx

Wade averages 5.6 points in the fourth quarter, in 9.0 minutes, on 51.2% TS

http://tinyurl.com/86gt6m3

James averages 28.7 points per 36 minutes of clutch time on 54.7% TS, in a sample of 104 minutes.

http://tinyurl.com/blhz9c2

Wade averages 22.8 points per 36 minutes of clutch time on 49.5% TS, in a sample of 87 minutes.

Now, factor in the fact that James actually IMPROVES his rebounding (shoots up to 11.8 per 36 from his usual 7.6), turns the ball over far less (TO% drops down to 7.08 from 10.64), maintains his assist rate, increases his usage (meaning he actually takes more shots in crunch time, not less), and pumps up the defensive intensity, it's absolutely laughable to assert that Lebron has struggled while Wade has been the clutch performer, when the evidence obviously suggests the opposite.


Well done. Even easy enough for idiots to digest. Though I actually think these stats are worse than they were in Cleveland where he was by far the best clutch time player in the league. Think you can dig those up?
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Re: Official 2011-2012 MVP Discussion Thread - Part 3 

Post#1858 » by SideshowBob » Thu Apr 19, 2012 1:01 am

JLei wrote:Well done. Even easy enough for idiots to digest. Though I actually think these stats are worse than they were in Cleveland where he was by far the best clutch time player in the league. Think you can dig those up?


They are MUCH worse, and I've already done so (most are on the PC board)

Fourth Quarter numbers in Miami vs. Cleveland:
http://forums.realgm.com/boards/viewtopic.php?f=64&t=1151834&start=510#p31404904

Playoff Fourth quarter numbers (includes many players, but all of Lebron's are in there):
http://forums.realgm.com/boards/viewtopic.php?f=64&t=1163399

Clutch Numbers (All players):
http://www.82games.com/1011/CSORT11.HTM - 2011
http://www.82games.com/0910/CSORT11.HTM - 2010
http://www.82games.com/0809/CSORT11.HTM - 2009
http://www.82games.com/CSORT11.HTM - 2008

Lebron Only:
http://www.82games.com/0607/06CLE9E.HTM - 2007
http://www.82games.com/0506/05CLE10E.HTM - 2006
http://www.82games.com/0809/playoffs/08CLE7.HTM#clutch - 2009 Playoffs
http://www.82games.com/0708/playoffs/07CLE8E.HTM - 2008 Playoffs
http://www.82games.com/0607/playoffs/06CLE8E.HTM - 2007 Playoffs
http://www.82games.com/0506/playoffs/05CLE7E.HTM - 2006 Playoffs
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Re: Official 2011-2012 MVP Discussion Thread - Part 3 

Post#1859 » by UGA Hayes » Thu Apr 19, 2012 1:22 am

Oops, time for a new thread.

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