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Official 2011-2012 MVP Discussion Thread - Part 3

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Post#826 Re: Official 2011-2012 MVP Discussion Thread
Sun Apr 1, 2012 6:39 pm by illiance

InsideTheMind12 wrote:
MicTyson wrote:The truth is that the Thunder can actually lose to a few teams in the West as well.....

It's more realistic that the Heat lose to a East team than OKC loses to a West team IMO.

Completely disagree. There's only one team with any chance of beating Miami in the East. Memphis and San Antonio have a realistic shot of beating OKC. Dallas is also a wild-card.
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Post#827 Re: Official 2011-2012 MVP Discussion Thread
Sun Apr 1, 2012 6:55 pm by semi-sentient

1. Durant
2. LeBron

It will be interesting to see if LeBron starts to pick things up as the season closes. Durant has been on a real tear during OKC's 6-game win streak, so unless he goes on a slump I think the MVP is his for the taking.

While I do think Durant has an underrated supporting cast, LeBron still has a bit more help. That, to me, is how the MVP should really be judged. I do feel that LeBron is still the best player in the league, recent struggles or not, but I can't imagine the Heat performing as poorly without LeBron as the Thunder would without Durant.
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Post#828 Re: Official 2011-2012 MVP Discussion Thread
Sun Apr 1, 2012 9:10 pm by qm22

Bravely Done wrote:
CJ_18 wrote:
ThatIshCray wrote:Did those players have a history of continously failing in the playoffs, most specifically the finals too? Or are they known to be generally deadly in the clutch like Durant and Wade to some extent.


LeBron has performances in the 1st round, 2nd round, and Eastern Conference finals that Kevin Durant right now can only dream of having. Because as of April 1, 2012, Durant has never come close to accomplishing anything in the playoffs that comes close to what LeBron James has. Last season, Durant and his team got blown away 4-1 in the western conference finals. When LeBron James was that age, he took his to the NBA finals with 1/4 of the talent Durant had. End of story.

LeBron's 4 games in last year's final where he had little scoring production in the 4th quarter is the only reason people who are un-educated give him the rep of 'failing in the playoffs.' Go back, watch his playoff performances from his entire career. Durant has never had a playoff clutch performance that comes anywhere close to what LeBron James has done time and time again. Like Doctor MJ said, when Durant shows he can outperform LeBron when it matters in the playoffs, then you have a case. Because to this day LeBron's playoff resume is 10x more impressive.

Also I don't give a **** about reg season MVPs because they don't mean anything. That's not what I'm talking about.


And despite all his supposed playoff success, he has the same amount rings as Durant does while playing in a weaker conference.

Despite his statistical dominance his team Is struggling, being blown out, and hasn't won a game of note in over a month. In addition, he continues struggling in clutch situations and has been relegated to his teams second option during such moments. All this while being title favorites and hyped as the next great dynasty.


Lol at "supposed playoff success", as if this is something in the realm of doubt that can be brushed aside. LeBron performed better in similar stages whether or not you choose to admit it. Way to selectively wipe out all playoff performances because they don't favor Durant on the basis of neither of them having rings.

"His team is struggling". Yes, the Heat somewhat are but the entire season matters and they are 2.5 games behind the Thunder. LeBron also carried the Heat flawlessly with Wade sitting out or playing hurt.

"Struggling in clutch situations". I haven't seen any stats on that this year, but one could also argue James is always been able to create for himself in the 4th quarter. Durant has been clutch but still can't create for himself.

"Despite his statistical dominance"... On that point I agree, he has clearly better production than Durant. He's a better player. Given that and minor difference in team success I would give LeBron the MVP.
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Post#829 Re: Official 2011-2012 MVP Discussion Thread
Sun Apr 1, 2012 10:56 pm by IG2

cb4_89 wrote:Lebron took his foot off the gas and it will likely cost him an MVP.


This is plain ignorance. People with a clue about LeBron have been saying it all year that his numbers are very misleading. Anybody who was actually watching Heat games as opposed to the stat lines could have seen that he was getting 3-5 baskets via transition ALONE every night. This isn't even including the bunnies he was picking up around the rim just through basic cutting. It would have been beyond foolish to expect this to last. And it didn't. Eventually, Miami stopped forcing turnovers and teams smartened up to LeBron's off ball movement. So he's had to actually CREATE for himself, which again, anybody with a clue will tell you has been a major issue for him as a Heat.

His collapse in production over the last month isn't about "effort" or "heart" or "injuries" or being in a "slump". This is REALITY. This is who he is.
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Post#830 Official 2011-2012 MVP Discussion Thread - Pa
Mon Apr 2, 2012 12:31 am by CKRT

-[Clippers]- wrote:You're joking, right? Miami could lose to the Bulls. OKC could lose to the Spurs, Grizzlies, Mavs, maybe even the Clippers. It's far more probable that OKC misses the Finals.


The only teams OKC might lose to on that list are the Spurs and Mavs. The Grizzlies are more or less the same as last year with a weaker bench and were lucky that OKC blew some big leads against them. OKC is a much much improved team this year, without a doubt. I don't see a series with the Grizzlies going more than 5. Same with the Clippers..OKC as a team can play defense when they want too, whereas the Clips best defensive player is 6 feet tall. I'd say 5 games with the Clippers shooting lights out to steal one. I'm not even convinced the Clippers can get out of the first round.
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Post#831 Re: Official 2011-2012 MVP Discussion Thread
Mon Apr 2, 2012 12:33 am by Rerisen

IG2 wrote:His collapse in production over the last month isn't about "effort" or "heart" or "injuries" or being in a "slump". This is REALITY. This is who he is.


Even if true, 'who he is' is still a dominant player. Just not 'breaking MJ/Wilt's PER records' type dominant. So 26-28 PER guy instead of 33-34.

He was in rare territory before now he's just back to a bit below his past highs. He was over achieving, but now he's underachieving. Regression to the mean.
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Post#832 Re: Official 2011-2012 MVP Discussion Thread
Mon Apr 2, 2012 1:50 am by va-mos

MicTyson wrote:
InsideTheMind12 wrote:
Doctor MJ wrote:If and when Durant outperforms LeBron to win the title, I'd expect to change my mind. To this point every conceivable individual metric puts LeBron ahead of Durant. Durant should not be getting the MVP simply because the team does so incredibly well when he's on the bench.

This isn't anything personal. I found LeBron's behavior as he moved to Miami distasteful, and absolutely love Durant's humble demeanor. When there's hard evidence that Durant's impact surpasses LeBron's, I'll be right on board with you.

What if LeBron and the Heat don't make it to the Finals? Then what will your opinion be on the best? The truth is that the Heat can actually lose to a few teams in the East. They aren't some world beater like everybody claimed they were earlier this season.

I'm not on the advanced metrics like you are, so we already differ in opinion.



The truth is that the Thunder can actually lose to a few teams in the West as well.....


I think the Spurs would beat the Thunder in a 7 game series. We'll see, but that's the impression I get.
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Post#833 Re: Official 2011-2012 MVP Discussion Thread
Mon Apr 2, 2012 1:51 am by BBgun

IG2 wrote:
cb4_89 wrote:Lebron took his foot off the gas and it will likely cost him an MVP.


This is plain ignorance. People with a clue about LeBron have been saying it all year that his numbers are very misleading. Anybody who was actually watching Heat games as opposed to the stat lines could have seen that he was getting 3-5 baskets via transition ALONE every night. This isn't even including the bunnies he was picking up around the rim just through basic cutting. It would have been beyond foolish to expect this to last. And it didn't. Eventually, Miami stopped forcing turnovers and teams smartened up to LeBron's off ball movement. So he's had to actually CREATE for himself, which again, anybody with a clue will tell you has been a major issue for him as a Heat.

His collapse in production over the last month isn't about "effort" or "heart" or "injuries" or being in a "slump". This is REALITY. This is who he is.


This is who is he is.....so hes a 19 ppg player now all of a sudden after one bad month? As opposed to the 27 ppg scorer hes been for his entire career, including 95 percent of his time on the Heat?....no, not even close. Hes SLUMPING. It happens. Hes a bit banged up, possibly fatigued, hit a bit of a wall. This isn't who is he.
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Post#834 Re: Official 2011-2012 MVP Discussion Thread
Mon Apr 2, 2012 4:34 am by gordito

Wow, never been on this thread before. I'm shocked at the amount of Lebron haters we have here. While I agree Durant will probably win MVP (deservedly so), some of you guys are beyond ridiculous. The funniest thing I've read so far is the guy who said "this is who he is", in regards to his recent slump. Really? So lets disregard everything he has done for the past 5 years in favor of a short stretch where he's noticeably banged up. That makes sense. ThatIshCray is by far the worse though. Definitely didn't realize until now that his sole agenda was to troll on Lebron. I mean, how old are some of you guys? Hop off the guy's nuts and have some objectivity for once.
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Post#835 Re: Official 2011-2012 MVP Discussion Thread
Mon Apr 2, 2012 4:50 am by gordito

InsideTheMind12 wrote:
MicTyson wrote:The truth is that the Thunder can actually lose to a few teams in the West as well.....

It's more realistic that the Heat lose to a East team than OKC loses to a West team IMO.


How do you figure? SAS has had OKC's number all year, so I think they can present a legitimate challenge. Not to mention LAL and DAL, who can surprise teams come playoff time. Some have already mentioned MEM based on the way they matchup, but I don't really see them being able to take OKC in a series, maybe as a wildcard along with LAC.

On the other hand, the only team that can present a legitimate challenge to MIA is CHI. I think BOS could be considered a wildcard (very dangerous team when things are clicking), but I don't think ORL stands a chance.
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Post#836 Re: Official 2011-2012 MVP Discussion Thread
Mon Apr 2, 2012 6:08 am by LinsanityEpic

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Post#837 Re: Official 2011-2012 MVP Discussion Thread
Mon Apr 2, 2012 9:29 am by HurricaneKid

CKRT wrote:. The Grizzlies are more or less the same as last year with a weaker bench and were lucky that OKC blew some big leads against them.


I think OKC would beat Mem but they aren't close tot he same team. I mean Gay was out during that entire run last year. Most would say he is their best player...
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Post#838 Re: Official 2011-2012 MVP Discussion Thread
Mon Apr 2, 2012 1:53 pm by va-mos

I think Boston will beat Miami if they meet in the playoffs. In fact I'm sure of it. And I'm speaking completely objectively. Boston at their best are better than Miami, and Boston have timed their run to perfection and have a good chance of being at their best come playoff time. Having said that, I will be disappointed if Miami and Chicago don't meet. So I won't exactly be hoping Boston win anything.
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Post#839 Re: Official 2011-2012 MVP Discussion Thread
Mon Apr 2, 2012 2:06 pm by Krodis

HurricaneKid wrote:
CKRT wrote:. The Grizzlies are more or less the same as last year with a weaker bench and were lucky that OKC blew some big leads against them.


I think OKC would beat Mem but they aren't close tot he same team. I mean Gay was out during that entire run last year. Most would say he is their best player...

There's no way Gay is better than Gasol or Randolph.
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Post#840 Re: Official 2011-2012 MVP Discussion Thread
Mon Apr 2, 2012 2:08 pm by HurricaneKid

Mia had their run when they went 10 games without a team getting within 12 points or whatever. I really do think they are just biding their time at this point.

Chicago will likely have to play NYK, Boston, and Mia to make the Finals. Thats a terrible stretch for a 1 seed. Meanwhile, Mia would get Philly and Orl/Indy/ATL. So stop telling me they need to win regular season games. I think they would much prefer their path than Chi's.
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Post#841 Re: Official 2011-2012 MVP Discussion Thread
Mon Apr 2, 2012 2:34 pm by Phailadelphia

HurricaneKid wrote:
CKRT wrote:. The Grizzlies are more or less the same as last year with a weaker bench and were lucky that OKC blew some big leads against them.


I think OKC would beat Mem but they aren't close tot he same team. I mean Gay was out during that entire run last year. Most would say he is their best player...


They don't have Battier to bother Durant anymore and Westbrook is a Grizzlies-killer (seriously. Check this #s against Mem this year). And Memphis has good post guys but their perimeter shooting is god awful. Not a favorable matchup vs OKC's wings and post defense.
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Post#842 Re: Official 2011-2012 MVP Discussion Thread
Mon Apr 2, 2012 5:02 pm by Rerisen

HurricaneKid wrote:Chicago will likely have to play NYK, Boston, and Mia to make the Finals. Thats a terrible stretch for a 1 seed. Meanwhile, Mia would get Philly and Orl/Indy/ATL. So stop telling me they need to win regular season games. I think they would much prefer their path than Chi's.


Don't want to derail too much, but NYK without Lin and Amare is tough? Boston's weaknesses (rebounding) is Chicago's strength. I don't think Chicago's path is untypical at all for 1 seed.

Orlando is a bad matchup for Miami, they'll probably still win but it could be a tough series. Indy is punchy too and would get at least 1 game.
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Post#843 Re: Official 2011-2012 MVP Discussion Thread
Tue Apr 3, 2012 6:31 am by joeyhalog

^^ yeah but don't forget Boston is a great shooting team. And chicago's strength in D is clogging the paint.
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Post#844 Re: Official 2011-2012 MVP Discussion Thread
Tue Apr 3, 2012 12:25 pm by HurricaneKid

Amare will be back for the playoffs and the last time we had a shortened season the Knicks came out of the East from the 8 seed. They have really responded to Woodson and are playing well above their current seed. I am confident the Bulls will beat them but its not an ideal matchup.

The Celtics have been the best team in the NBA over the last 5 weeks, despite missing RayRay for a portion of that time. If you think the Bulls are going to roll over them you are mistaken. They are going to be a tough out in the playoffs.

Orlando is NOT going to give Mia that much trouble in the playoffs and isn't even guaranteed to beat ATL (after all, they didn't last year) in the 1st rd. I would really like to see them get Mario, Miller, and Turiaf playing well going into the playoffs but all these projections based on games that essentially don't matter for Mia are foolish. I think they are a bigger favorite now than they have been in a while as the playoffs start setting up.
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Post#845 Re: Official 2011-2012 MVP Discussion Thread
Tue Apr 3, 2012 2:19 pm by overpaid

I can see lebron winning it, if the heat beats OKC and the Bulls (both games)
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