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Why is Joe Dumars still GM in Detroit?

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Post#1 Why is Joe Dumars still GM in Detroit?
Fri Jun 15, 2012 2:41 pm by NiqtheAntiq

I liked the guy when he put together that 2004 team to beat the Lakers but I don't understand why he still insists on keeping players from that 2004 team like Ben Wallace or Tayshaun Prince. He should have traded Rip Hamilton years ago but he basically let him walk to the Bulls after his value was all but gone.

Also whats up with Ben Gordon and Charlie V, he planning on keeping them for their entire contracts? Huge mistakes but he could probably get something for Ben Gordon.


Basically why is this guy still GM if he just gets worse each year? He has done semi decent drafting, but he won't make any real moves it seems. I dont remember any trades with Detroit in recent memory.

here is a good article on the subject

http://www.detroitbadboys.com/2012/1/26/2737138/blame
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Post#2 Re: Why is Joe Dumars still GM in Detroit?
Fri Jun 15, 2012 2:42 pm by beantownski

blame darko
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Post#3 Re: Why is Joe Dumars still GM in Detroit?
Fri Jun 15, 2012 2:45 pm by Wone

i don't think he cares about winning championships anymore... how else can you explain the charlie villanueva contract?
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Post#4 Re: Why is Joe Dumars still GM in Detroit?
Fri Jun 15, 2012 2:50 pm by melo mvp 15

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But he said he was the Answer, turns out he wasn't so I threw money at a fatass and a bench scorer
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Post#5 Re: Why is Joe Dumars still GM in Detroit?
Fri Jun 15, 2012 2:51 pm by qm22

1. He built a championship and highly successful team in a very difficult way. Detroit is not a free agent destination and had no superstar in the draft (which brings up Darko, but that argument should be dead, as it was a terrible but defensible mistake most GMs would make).

2. The Pistons have been for sale for a long time and he wasn't allowed to do much. The Pistons have a good owner now, so I think you will see a large turnaround. In any case it is normal that a once good team takes 3 seasons to rebuild especially when saddled until recently with the contracts from the old championship team in Rip and Tay. And when those vets did not willingly pass the torch. To the OP who does not remember any good recent trades: he was prohibited by ownership from taking ANY salary

3. He made a costly mistake in signing Ben Gordon and CV for most of his capspace. That was an unambiguous mistake, although Ben Gordon *should* have performed close to his contract level, IMO. However, every GM has made stupid mistakes as part of calculated risks or attempts to piece together something which never came together (for instance Ben Gordon was supposedly going to be a starter but the ownership prevented a Rip Hamilton trade for Boozer when Gordon was signed). Every championship GM has made some terrible mistakes, if you think every move will pan out and you will be a contender every year it is a pipe dream.
*BTW the CV contract is 7 million and was under the old CBA; for someone who was supposed to be a role playing big man that is a typical contract. CV is a type I would think would have been wise to avoid but I can understand trying to get a complimentary big man contract for CV at the time. Not that I ever liked the signing.

The only criticism I think I did not address is his decision to not blatantly tank Charlotte Bobcat style. Despite not doing it the Pistons have added some good young talent and are on the way to rebuilding, so although the Pistons have sucked, I much prefer this to outright tanking.
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Post#6 Re: Why is Joe Dumars still GM in Detroit?
Fri Jun 15, 2012 2:54 pm by BadNFluenz

qm22 wrote:1. He built a championship and highly successful team in a very difficult way. Detroit is not a free agent destination and had no superstar in the draft (which brings up Darko, but that argument should be dead, as it was a terrible but defensible mistake most GMs would make).

2. The Pistons have been for sale for a long time and he wasn't allowed to do much. The Pistons have a good owner now, so I think you will see a large turnaround. In any case it is normal that a once good team takes 3 seasons to rebuild especially when saddled until recently with the contracts from the old championship team in Rip and Tay. And when those vets did not willingly pass the torch.

3. He made a costly mistake in signing Ben Gordon and CV for most of his capspace. That was an unambiguous mistake, although Ben Gordon *should* have performed close to his contract level, IMO. However, every GM has made stupid mistakes as part of calculated risks or attempts to piece together something which never came together (for instance Ben Gordon was supposedly going to be a starter but the ownership prevented a Rip Hamilton trade for Boozer when Gordon was signed). Every championship GM has made some terrible mistakes, if you think every move will pan out and you will be a contender every year it is a pipe dream.


The only criticism I think I did not address is his decision to not blatantly tank Charlotte Bobcat style. Despite not doing it the Pistons have added some good young talent and are on the way to rebuilding, so although the Pistons have sucked, I much prefer this to outright tanking.



Thanks, I may be no Hardcore Pistons Fan but I always felt that Dumars isn't as bad as most people say/think he is.
'You are cancerous to your team and the league'
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Post#7 Re: Why is Joe Dumars still GM in Detroit?
Fri Jun 15, 2012 3:01 pm by Bertrob

His track record isn't that bad
Some good, some bad like most
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Post#8 Re: Why is Joe Dumars still GM in Detroit?
Fri Jun 15, 2012 3:08 pm by FlipTSO

Because he's 1 of only a handful of GM's in the league that's proven he knows how to build a championship team.

There's too many factors involved in the Pistons decline since '08 that you can't possibly blame it all on Dumars. For one, that team was old and at their end of their run. Then the passing of Mr D and ownership fiasco that lasted 2 yrs, put a wrench in any plans he may have had in place for when that run was over.

Remember he was the first GM to clear major capspace for the summer of 2010 and basically started that whole trend. That was before Mr D passed, but after that happened he was told by the interim owners that he HAD to spend that capspace in '09, because there would be no more spending in '10 while they would be in the process of selling the team. So that alone screwed up his whole initial plan. But to make it worse, he was forced to spend $20 mil in capspace in a terrible FA market. Gordon and Villanueva were really the 2 best players in that FA - thats how bad it was.

Supposedly, he then had a plan in place to trade Rip for Boozer in a S&T, making Gordon the starting SG, Boozer the starting PF, and CV a scoring big off the bench. But then the interim ownership later nixed that deal, and they were stuck with 2 high paid SG's and no starting big man. And refused to allow him to make any trades to resolve the mess, nor make any FA signings.

Since that whole ownership mess has been resolved, he's quietly accumulated a nice pool of young talent through the draft - Monroe, Knight, Jerebko, with Singler coming over next year, and will be adding another young talent with the 9th pick this year. He resigned Stuckey at a bargain deal, cleared some cap space by buying out Rip, and hired the right coach in Frank. All this young talent on cheap contracts, and next summer we'll be about $20 mil under the cap, PLUS Gordon and Villanueva's contracts will become huge EXP contract assets, creating another $20 mil in space should they keep them and let them expire.

In other words, in 2 yrs they will have a team loaded with young talent and loaded with cap space to build around them. The Pistons are actually in fantastic shape for the future, and for Joe D to set them up like this through all the BS ownership stuff, he should be credited, not criticized, imo.
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Post#9 Re: Why is Joe Dumars still GM in Detroit?
Fri Jun 15, 2012 3:10 pm by Rockazoids

qm22 wrote:1. He built a championship and highly successful team in a very difficult way. Detroit is not a free agent destination and had no superstar in the draft (which brings up Darko, but that argument should be dead, as it was a terrible but defensible mistake most GMs would make).

Because he & the FO pasted on 3 superstar
Wade
Melo
Bosh
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Post#10 Re: Why is Joe Dumars still GM in Detroit?
Fri Jun 15, 2012 3:20 pm by FlipTSO

Rockazoids wrote:
qm22 wrote:1. He built a championship and highly successful team in a very difficult way. Detroit is not a free agent destination and had no superstar in the draft (which brings up Darko, but that argument should be dead, as it was a terrible but defensible mistake most GMs would make).

Because he & the FO pasted on 3 superstar
Wade
Melo
Bosh


The thing that ppl forget about that #2 pick is that it wasn't our pick, it was MEM's. We weren't the 2nd worst team in the league, weren't rebuilding, and weren't in position to just go BPA like most teams with a #2 overall pick. We were coming off an ECF appearance where we got swept and needed a big man to go next to Big Ben.

So Wade and Melo were out of the question. Looking back, Bosh was obviously the big man we should've gone with over Darko, but at the time Bosh was this spindly 220lb forward who looked more like a SF than a big man who was going to help us win a championship any time soon. So they went with the 7 foot, 240lb Center, who every other GM and analyst also had projected at #2. People today act like Darko was this huge reach, like he was projected to go late 1st and we gambled and it blew up. He was projected #2 and thats who we took.

It's no different if CHA takes MKG #2 this year and he busts, while a bunch of players taken later become stars. And fwiw, all these "stars" we passed on, since then, have led their teams to a combined 1 championship. Unless we were to later acquire LeBron and Wade too in FA, it doesn't look like us drafting Bosh alone would've made any difference for our franchise, in terms of number of championships.
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Post#11 Re: Why is Joe Dumars still GM in Detroit?
Fri Jun 15, 2012 3:21 pm by HighFlyer23

2004 was a fluke for Dumars

Exclude it and see how bad of a GM he is
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Post#12 Re: Why is Joe Dumars still GM in Detroit?
Fri Jun 15, 2012 3:26 pm by Rockazoids

FlipTSO wrote:
Rockazoids wrote:
qm22 wrote:1. He built a championship and highly successful team in a very difficult way. Detroit is not a free agent destination and had no superstar in the draft (which brings up Darko, but that argument should be dead, as it was a terrible but defensible mistake most GMs would make).

Because he & the FO pasted on 3 superstar
Wade
Melo
Bosh


The thing that ppl forget about that #2 pick is that it wasn't our pick, it was MEM's. We weren't the 2nd worst team in the league, weren't rebuilding, and weren't in position to just go BPA like most teams with a #2 overall pick. We were coming off an ECF appearance where we got swept and needed a big man to go next to Big Ben.

So Wade and Melo were out of the question. Looking back, Bosh was obviously the big man we should've gone with over Darko, but at the time Bosh was this spindly 220lb forward who looked more like a SF than a big man who was going to help us win a championship any time soon. So they went with the 7 foot, 240lb Center, who every other GM and analyst also had projected at #2. People today act like Darko was this huge reach, like he was projected to go late 1st and we gambled and it blew up. He was projected #2 and thats who we took.

It's no different if CHA takes MKG #2 this year and he busts, while a bunch of players taken later become stars.
The thing was they should had traded down a few spots & got a good vet big also.
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Post#13 Re: Why is Joe Dumars still GM in Detroit?
Fri Jun 15, 2012 3:27 pm by FlipTSO

HighFlyer23 wrote:2004 was a fluke for Dumars

Exclude it and see how bad of a GM he is


:o

Take away 2004.

His resume becomes - Finals in 2005, ECF in '03, '05, '06, 07, and '08.

50+ win seasons in '02, '03, '05, '06, '07, and '08. Playoffs in '02-'09.

You're right, definitely a fluke, and has been terrible aside from that year. :roll:
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Post#14 Re: Why is Joe Dumars still GM in Detroit?
Fri Jun 15, 2012 3:41 pm by HeatFanSince87

FlipTSO wrote:
HighFlyer23 wrote:2004 was a fluke for Dumars

Exclude it and see how bad of a GM he is


:o

Take away 2004.

His resume becomes - Finals in 2005, ECF in '03, '05, '06, 07, and '08.

50+ win seasons in '02, '03, '05, '06, '07, and '08. Playoffs in '02-'09.

You're right, definitely a fluke, and has been terrible aside from that year. :roll:



Crazy but most are "what have you done for me lately?"

Joe has made some awful recent moves but to build that title team of 04, and game away from title in 05(crushed me to lose that game 7 in ECFs).. and I belive 6 straight seasons in ECFs? He lost at the time a franchise player and at lease able to flip that into Ben Wallace and I believe Chucky Atkins, traded a declining Stackhouse for Rip, drafted Prince, signed Billups.. and some how landed Sheed..

Not one typical "franchise player'..and built this team while losing a franchise player. Pretty damn impressive.
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Post#15 Re: Why is Joe Dumars still GM in Detroit?
Fri Jun 15, 2012 5:10 pm by Jan_Sobieski

Once in a lifetime GM.
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Post#16 Re: Why is Joe Dumars still GM in Detroit?
Fri Jun 15, 2012 5:28 pm by Mobat

I'd trade Colangelo for him in a heartbeat.

Dumars has only showed some struggles of dismantling a good team and choosing a rebuilding path. But that team was awesome that he built.
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Post#17 Re: Why is Joe Dumars still GM in Detroit?
Fri Jun 15, 2012 5:35 pm by [GR]

Name one GM who gets fired after 6 straight ECFs, 2 Finals, and 1 championship?


Ainge did a worse job than Dumars, and he's gonna be around at least 3 more seasons because of that '08 ring.
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Post#18 Re: Why is Joe Dumars still GM in Detroit?
Fri Jun 15, 2012 6:06 pm by Shamrock

Aside from a couple decisions made by Dumars he's done a good job. He's got two blossoming stars in Knight and Monroe and has a great player in Stuckey. That team is only gonna get better.
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Post#19 Re: Why is Joe Dumars still GM in Detroit?
Fri Jun 15, 2012 6:07 pm by Biz Gilwalker

Knight's a blossoming star now?
GM A Team: 2015-16 76ers
Chandler(24)/Sanders(24)/Bynum
Griffin(30)/Dieng(18)
Batum(30)/K.Thompson(30)/Battier/Casspi
Curry(30)/Ellis(30)/Morrow
Parker(24)/Farmar/#26 pick

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Post#20 Re: Why is Joe Dumars still GM in Detroit?
Fri Jun 15, 2012 6:08 pm by bullsnewdynasty

Huge mistake to give BG a $12 million contract.

Dumars has been living on rep for years. Should have been fired along with Kuester last offseason.
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