Jeremy Lin has been turned into Derek Fisher

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Re: Jeremy Lin has been turned into Derek Fisher 

Post#141 » by 13th Man » Wed Nov 14, 2012 3:46 pm

If I was to critique Lin's game right now, (which I really shouldn't because it's only been a half dozen games) but for the sake of this thread, I would say that he's not playing with the same chip on his shoulder as he was last year. I noticed right away even in preseason that he seemed a bit complacent, with the attitude that he has little to prove. That's not a good sign when you see vets like Tony Parker and Tim Duncan outhustling him in preseason. This could be his way of deflecting a lot of the pressures put on him but at the same time its carrying over into the regular season as well. It could also be that he's recovering from surgery.

When Harden was signed and took the reigns this took even more pressure off of Lin to the point where he's losing significance on running the offense. To his credit, his other areas of play have noticeably improved such as his defense, steals, passing especially in transition, and less TOs. I think the reason why he's getting some flack right now as well is because the Rockets need someone to step up when Harden is not on his game and Lin is the guy they naturally look to next based on his contract and expectations put on him. Whether this is fair is subjective.

I believe that the coaches haven't figured out the optimal roles of the backcourt between Lin and Harden yet. I'm not sure what the real solution is because Harden is the 80M man, but hopefully they'll be able to find a balance over time that maximizes the efficiency of both players. I'm not going to jump into conclusions at this point to say this or that player sucks. This team is not the Lakers where they need to win this year, there's more time for the Rockets to sort themselves out so I'm not too worried.
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Re: Jeremy Lin has been turned into Derek Fisher 

Post#142 » by aether1234 » Wed Nov 14, 2012 4:01 pm

Ginger Bean wrote:Chris frigging Paul would look mediocre in this offense. It is one of the worst in the league, though the defense is decent, which is why they haven't been blown out in games yet.

Asik is a liability on offense, so defenders are doubling/tripling the handler. Patterson is soft and hesitant to bang in the paint. Some games, it seems like Lin will get more rebounds than him.

Plus, outside shooting has been poor, so teams just pack the paint. Both Harden and Lin are less effective on this team.

It's easy to say Lin is overrated or marginal when you haven't watched the games, or understand how messed up this roster is.


OK bro everybody is bad on that roster except lin, they all making lin look bad, they made lin airball that last shot :roll:

Asik been almost their best player so far you even said hes making lin look bad, maybe they should trade all their players and get some players who will make lin look good and lose all their games ?
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Re: Jeremy Lin has been turned into Derek Fisher 

Post#143 » by Tim Horton » Wed Nov 14, 2012 4:08 pm

aether1234 wrote:
Ginger Bean wrote:Chris frigging Paul would look mediocre in this offense. It is one of the worst in the league, though the defense is decent, which is why they haven't been blown out in games yet.

Asik is a liability on offense, so defenders are doubling/tripling the handler. Patterson is soft and hesitant to bang in the paint. Some games, it seems like Lin will get more rebounds than him.

Plus, outside shooting has been poor, so teams just pack the paint. Both Harden and Lin are less effective on this team.

It's easy to say Lin is overrated or marginal when you haven't watched the games, or understand how messed up this roster is.


OK bro everybody is bad on that roster except lin, they all making lin look bad, they made lin airball that last shot :roll:

Asik been almost their best player so far you even said hes making lin look bad, maybe they should trade all their players and get some players who will make lin look good and lose all their games ?


Asik's D is excellent but his O is mediocre. his shots are no game changers. gingerbean is right. big men tend to sag off and help defend the ball handler since Asik either a) lose the ball b) can't catch an alleyoop. To his credit, he is improving but until then pressure is on the backcourt.
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Re: Jeremy Lin has been turned into Derek Fisher 

Post#144 » by diablerouge » Wed Nov 14, 2012 4:14 pm

lin is not good enough for a system to revolve around him. he's always been a very poor shooter since his college days, last year's spike was an aberration (and he was still below league average from 3 at 32%). it's up to lin to adjust to harden since he's the lesser player by a considerable margin, not the other way around.
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Re: Jeremy Lin has been turned into Derek Fisher 

Post#145 » by aether1234 » Wed Nov 14, 2012 4:17 pm

Tim Horton wrote:
aether1234 wrote:
Ginger Bean wrote:Chris frigging Paul would look mediocre in this offense. It is one of the worst in the league, though the defense is decent, which is why they haven't been blown out in games yet.

Asik is a liability on offense, so defenders are doubling/tripling the handler. Patterson is soft and hesitant to bang in the paint. Some games, it seems like Lin will get more rebounds than him.

Plus, outside shooting has been poor, so teams just pack the paint. Both Harden and Lin are less effective on this team.

It's easy to say Lin is overrated or marginal when you haven't watched the games, or understand how messed up this roster is.


OK bro everybody is bad on that roster except lin, they all making lin look bad, they made lin airball that last shot :roll:

Asik been almost their best player so far you even said hes making lin look bad, maybe they should trade all their players and get some players who will make lin look good and lose all their games ?


Asik's D is excellent but his O is mediocre. his shots are no game changers. gingerbean is right. big men tend to sag off and help defend the ball handler since Asik either a) lose the ball b) can't catch an alleyoop. To his credit, he is improving but until then pressure is on the backcourt.


Dude Asik sets the best screens in the game huge budy, harden had lots of easy baskets because of his screens every game, isnt his fault that lin couldnt penetrate, the asian fanboys are funny, blaming everybody on the team for their golden boys fault
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Re: Jeremy Lin has been turned into Derek Fisher 

Post#146 » by Tim Horton » Wed Nov 14, 2012 4:17 pm

diablerouge wrote:lin is not good enough for a system to revolve around him. he's always been a very poor shooter since his college days, last year's spike was an aberration (and he was still below league average from 3 at 32%). it's up to lin to adjust to harden since he's the lesser player by a considerable margin, not the other way around.


looking at this thread nobody is suggesting that Lin be the franchise player on the team, i believe they are suggesting that he reverts back to his role as PG and be more active on offense unlike what the coaching staff is making him do which is pass the ball to Harden and patrol the 3pt line.
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Re: Jeremy Lin has been turned into Derek Fisher 

Post#147 » by Ginger Bean » Wed Nov 14, 2012 4:20 pm

aether1234 wrote:
OK bro everybody is bad on that roster except lin, they all making lin look bad, they made lin airball that last shot :roll:

Asik been almost their best player so far you even said hes making lin look bad, maybe they should trade all their players and get some players who will make lin look good and lose all their games ?


I didn't blame Asik. If something is not clicking on the roster, then that's on Morey or the coaches. They put on the product on the floor, not Lin or Asik.

Asik is who he is. He's a beast on defense, and he works really, really hard. They're clearly trying to develop him on offense. He'll get there eventually, but developing big men takes years.

Airballs happen to everyone. That's not the issue. The issue is, BOTH Harden and Lin are less effective on this team, because they're excellent PnR handlers and Asik is not a PnR finisher. He can't catch lobs or roll hard to the basket. He was missing layup after layup, I guess because he isn't comfortable dunking? I don't know why he would try layups instead of dunking. Anyway, this limits Harden and Lin, because defenders pack the paint and sag off Asik because he isn't an offensive threat (yet).

Patterson could be the finisher, but if you watch games, you can tell he's soft. His rebounding is inconsistent. The coach had to publicly call him out for his lack of effort on rebounding. Also benched him one game. Sometimes he refuses to set screens too.

So you have Asik setting picks and a bunch of guys sitting on the perimeter bricking threes.

Lin has his flaws too of course -- for instance, HE'S NOT A SPOT-UP SHOOTER. That's the point. He can't camp out in the corner like he's Steve Novak.
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Re: Jeremy Lin has been turned into Derek Fisher 

Post#148 » by 13th Man » Wed Nov 14, 2012 4:24 pm

diablerouge wrote:lin is not good enough for a system to revolve around him. he's always been a very poor shooter since his college days, last year's spike was an aberration (and he was still below league average from 3 at 32%). it's up to lin to adjust to harden since he's the lesser player by a considerable margin, not the other way around.


Is it unreasonable to suggest that Lin plays his natural position which is PG? You said it yourself that Lin is not a good shooter so by forcing him into the role of shooting guard, this would minimize his effectiveness would it not? How would you suggest that he adjusts to Harden then? By becoming a better SG? I'm sorry but I'm just trying to figure out your logic here.
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Re: Jeremy Lin has been turned into Derek Fisher 

Post#149 » by spaceballer » Wed Nov 14, 2012 4:27 pm

dunleavyjr wrote:Maybe Lin's games with the Knicks last season was a fluke. Rockets need to stop the bleeding. Sometimes I feel like Harden is like a Carmelo Anthony, causing a distraction to Lin's game. I don't know...


I can't believe that after everything that's happened, there are still people claiming Jeremy Lin's Knicks games last season were a "fluke."

You remember the election that we just had with Obama and Romney? Guess who the biggest winner was -- Nate Silver.

Phys.org wrote: It was not just a victory for President Barack Obama, it was validation for the number-crunchers and statistical model geeks, including a New York Times blogger who became a target for conservatives.

Tuesday's election made a star out of Nate Silver, whose FiveThirtyEight blog for the US daily tracked the president's statistical odds and on election day offered a 90.9 percent probability of an Obama win.

Silver's model correctly predicted the presidential outcome in 49 states, and will be correct in all 50 if Obama's lead holds in Florida.

"Here is the absolute, undoubted winner of this election: Nate Silver and big data," said Chris Taylor in an opinion column on the website Mashable.

"What does this victory mean? That mathematical models can no longer be derided by 'gut-feeling' pundits. That Silver's contention—TV pundits are generally no more accurate than a coin toss—must now be given wider credence."

It was a similar result for three other models, including from Princeton University neuroscientist Sam Wang, Stanford's Simon Jackman and Emory University's Drew Linzer.

The results evoked the popular book and film starring Brad Pitt "Moneyball," which showed how statistical models can help win in baseball.

Obama's victory "is also a victory for the Moneyball approach to politics," said John Sides, a political scientist at George Washington University.

"It shows us that we can use systematic data—economic data, polling data—to separate momentum from no-mentum, to dispense with the gaseous emanations of pundits' 'guts,' and ultimately to forecast the winner," he said in a blog post.
http://phys.org/news/2012-11-election-m ... geeks.html


Just like in prior elections, Nate Silver once again comes through. There's a reason that presidential and state-wide campaigns pay close attention to everything that Nate Silver says election cycle after election cycle.

He knows how to create statistical models that create accurate predictive results even with little data (see his comment about "location, location, location" during his liveblogging of the election, that indicated that a very small sample size of a single district was sufficient to forecast the results for an entire state). His reputation is on his ability to create these accurate predictive results even with small sample sizes.

Nate Silver was able to confidently proclaim that his mathematical models predicted that Jeremy Lin was no fluke, based just on his first 4 games, despite the small sample size. It's not just the size of the data, but what you do with it, and the parameters you use to analyze it. Silver has an extremely respected and well-known track record of being right over the years. When presidential campaign directors and advisers hang on his every analysis, and Silver has a formidable record of being right over the years, you know he's not blowing smoke.

Here's the statistical modeling that Silver used to show Jeremy Lin is no fluke, despite the sample size:
http://fivethirtyeight.blogs.nytimes.co ... -no-fluke/

And, yes, Jeremy Lin is currently being misused by the horrible coaching in Houston. And it's not just "Jeremy Lin fans" who are saying it.

Jonathan Feigen via twitter wrote:Jonathan Feigen ‏@Jonathan_Feigen

Rockets look better when Lin plays point, Harden plays 2-guard. Imagine that. Lin w consecutive passes inside before Harden 3, Hou by 9.


That's from a long-time credible sports journalist in Houston on the Rocket's beat. Someone who has observed the team over the years and had no prior attachment to either Lin or Harden. Even he can see that the coaches are idiots to have Harden play PG and Lin play SG.
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Re: Jeremy Lin has been turned into Derek Fisher 

Post#150 » by diablerouge » Wed Nov 14, 2012 4:58 pm

13th Man wrote:
diablerouge wrote:lin is not good enough for a system to revolve around him. he's always been a very poor shooter since his college days, last year's spike was an aberration (and he was still below league average from 3 at 32%). it's up to lin to adjust to harden since he's the lesser player by a considerable margin, not the other way around.


Is it unreasonable to suggest that Lin plays his natural position which is PG? You said it yourself that Lin is not a good shooter so by forcing him into the role of shooting guard, this would minimize his effectiveness would it not? How would you suggest that he adjusts to Harden then? By becoming a better SG? I'm sorry but I'm just trying to figure out your logic here.

except that lin is not a natural PG, he was a flat out SG in college and a scoring PG in the pros. lin wasn't a floor general last year in NY, he was basically given a license to attack the hoop on every play and that's what made him successful. he can't do that as much in houston since harden is better than him at attacking the rim.

so yes, he has to adjust and become a better shooter and learn to score without dominating the ball. he just doesn't have the talent for a team to let him attack at all times from the PG spot like westbrook and rose. it can be learned, jason kidd became a 40% shooter from 3.
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Re: Jeremy Lin has been turned into Derek Fisher 

Post#151 » by 13th Man » Wed Nov 14, 2012 5:11 pm

diablerouge wrote:
13th Man wrote:
diablerouge wrote:lin is not good enough for a system to revolve around him. he's always been a very poor shooter since his college days, last year's spike was an aberration (and he was still below league average from 3 at 32%). it's up to lin to adjust to harden since he's the lesser player by a considerable margin, not the other way around.


Is it unreasonable to suggest that Lin plays his natural position which is PG? You said it yourself that Lin is not a good shooter so by forcing him into the role of shooting guard, this would minimize his effectiveness would it not? How would you suggest that he adjusts to Harden then? By becoming a better SG? I'm sorry but I'm just trying to figure out your logic here.

except that lin is not a natural PG, he was a flat out SG in college and a scoring PG in the pros. lin wasn't a floor general last year in NY, he was basically given a license to attack the hoop on every play and that's what made him successful. he can't do that as much in houston since harden is better than him at attacking the rim.

so yes, he has to adjust and become a better shooter and learn to score without dominating the ball. he just doesn't have the talent for a team to let him attack at all times from the PG spot like westbrook and rose. it can be learned, jason kidd became a 40% shooter from 3.


We'll have to agree to disagree. To me, Lin is a true PG this is where he excels not as a SG. With the Knicks last year he played both positions but he excelled when playing the point. He has great court vision and good court generalship as well, not a spot up shooter. He's demonstrated this year as well that he's more effective at the point. Being a point guard, you don't need to attack the basket at all times. Who says he needs to be Westbrook or Rose? With Harden there he could create plays for him as he did the first 2 games.

I see a different solution for making the Rockets more effective that is have Lin play the PG position and Harden the SG. These are their official designations anyways so whether this happens remains to be seen, its up to the coaches.
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Re: Jeremy Lin has been turned into Derek Fisher 

Post#152 » by BaYBaller » Wed Nov 14, 2012 5:27 pm

You're oversimplfying. Yes Lin is a PG and Harden is a SG, but Harden is actually a better PnR player than Lin. The offense should and does revolve around Harden. Lin SHOULD be attacking the basket more as well because that is his strength offensively. HOU plays a spread offense, the lane should be open (well actually it hasn't because of poor 3pt shooting so far this season, but theoretically). Just because on one particular offensive set Lin is camped out on the 3pt line on the weak side does not mean he should always shoot the 3. He shoots it if he's wide open, but on close out situations he should be driving it aggressively into the lane. Currently he is not doing that. Not sure if his knee is still an issue or what, but he is clearly not aggressive enough when he does have the ball.

Harden is actually a really good passer in terms of swinging the ball to the weak side when they load up on him. Lin has had and will continue to have plenty of opportunities to do something with the ball and it's on Lin to do it. Not as much as during Linsanity but let's be real no NBA team is going to turn the keys to the offense to Lin as though he was some superstar PG.
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Re: Jeremy Lin has been turned into Derek Fisher 

Post#153 » by aether1234 » Wed Nov 14, 2012 5:40 pm

Ginger Bean wrote:
aether1234 wrote:
OK bro everybody is bad on that roster except lin, they all making lin look bad, they made lin airball that last shot :roll:

Asik been almost their best player so far you even said hes making lin look bad, maybe they should trade all their players and get some players who will make lin look good and lose all their games ?


I didn't blame Asik. If something is not clicking on the roster, then that's on Morey or the coaches. They put on the product on the floor, not Lin or Asik.

Asik is who he is. He's a beast on defense, and he works really, really hard. They're clearly trying to develop him on offense. He'll get there eventually, but developing big men takes years.

Airballs happen to everyone. That's not the issue. The issue is, BOTH Harden and Lin are less effective on this team, because they're excellent PnR handlers and Asik is not a PnR finisher. He can't catch lobs or roll hard to the basket. He was missing layup after layup, I guess because he isn't comfortable dunking? I don't know why he would try layups instead of dunking. Anyway, this limits Harden and Lin, because defenders pack the paint and sag off Asik because he isn't an offensive threat (yet).

Patterson could be the finisher, but if you watch games, you can tell he's soft. His rebounding is inconsistent. The coach had to publicly call him out for his lack of effort on rebounding. Also benched him one game. Sometimes he refuses to set screens too.

So you have Asik setting picks and a bunch of guys sitting on the perimeter bricking threes.

Lin has his flaws too of course -- for instance, HE'S NOT A SPOT-UP SHOOTER. That's the point. He can't camp out in the corner like he's Steve Novak.


Rockets were leading the game by 8 points untill Asik went to bench you know that right ? and he didnt come back after that, then miami dominated the paint while lin airballs a wide open clutch three
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Re: Jeremy Lin has been turned into Derek Fisher 

Post#154 » by madmaxmedia » Wed Nov 14, 2012 5:53 pm

prophet_of_rage wrote:
madmaxmedia wrote:
prophet_of_rage wrote:the airball isn't that big a deal but it is symbolic of a kid that just is okay. Not special.


It was the absolute opposite of that game-winning shot in Toronto, wasn't it?

I'm totally rooting for him, but if it turns out he is an average PG/good backup who had a magical run, then that's what it is- no shame in that.


It wasn't the absolute opposite. He shot off a catch and shoot and airballed it. Maybe he rushed it maybe he didn't have legs under him maybe he just choked, but I wouldn't say that one play is any statement on Jeremy Lin. He's a middling player most likely and that's what middling players do. They have up moments and down moments.


In terms of the morning after story, it was not literally opposite but symbolically. I'm personally not drawing anything from a single miss, as we've all said it was just one miss. And if he hits that shot the pendulum swings the other way in a 180.

As human beings we like big meaningful moments, look at our movies. We look for it in real life too, we want to create stories and draw meaning from them- hence the 2 SI covers in a row. It doesn't mean we are right.

So yeah everything you say is right- it's not a statement on him as a player. But even if that's what people think, he will have plenty of chances this year to prove otherwise-

13th Man wrote:Harden's first 2 games was the worst thing that could have happened to the Rockets. Those games propped Harden into "Superstar" territory which is totally ridiculous. All of the sudden, the entire organization is treating him as if he's Michael Jordan ISO'ing anytime he wishes, handling the ball 80% of the time, calling off plays set by the coach to be the hero etc . Management is much to blame for this, for giving him an over-inflated head.


I think that's a good point, but you would think they will learn to adjust again after their recent stretch.

13th Man wrote:This last game is a prime example. I'm an objective Lin fan but I'm calling it as it is. Harden's series of ISO ball while the Rockets were leading was the main reason why the Heat were able to come back and overtake the Rockets late yet all the haters are harping over 1 airball. So if he hit the rim and missed, nobody would be saying anything but because it was an airball it was the difference maker in game? Just LOL.


I think most people here didn't watch the entire game, we're only watching Sportscenter highlights and looking at his stats (which are only part of the story.) I was seeing a lot of negativity in the Houston board, not dismissing Lin outright but wanting him to play better. So that was another thing I was going on.

kakaman wrote:Honestly, the Lakers have to call up Morey right now and try to get Jeremy Lin. We all saw what he did under D'Antoni, and he would have the opportunity to learn from Nash himself? It would instantly make the Lakers' bench a whole lot better. Houston has no idea how to use him properly.


I'm sure this trade (as part of a package) could be implausible for any number of reasons. But it is interesting that Gasol had been a highly-coveted player by the Rockets, and the Lakers new coach is the guy under whom Lin emerged and exploded, and has a system he played well in.

postcall wrote:After the first two games they decided that they were going to run the ball through Harden and the coaching staff has made it clear that they want Lin to defer to Harden every time. They want Lin to be a spot up shooter and no longer want him to initiate the offense. Listen to Sampson's comments about how he wants to utilize Lin.


That seems totally back asswards and not a good utilization of their roster. You may want Harden to to generate a lot of the team's offense, but also to initiate it?

13th Man wrote:If I was to critique Lin's game right now, (which I really shouldn't because it's only been a half dozen games) but for the sake of this thread, I would say that he's not playing with the same chip on his shoulder as he was last year.


True, but I also think there is something to be said for letting the game to come to you. It's way early, if the coaches are telling the players to run the offense a certain way I don't think it's nearly time yet to decide on court that you are going to do it differently. Don't know how much of his low usage rate right now is necesarily by design though. Obviously on any given play, even if it's supposed to go one way, if a player has an good opening he should probably try to exploit it.

diablerouge wrote:lin is not good enough for a system to revolve around him. he's always been a very poor shooter since his college days, last year's spike was an aberration (and he was still below league average from 3 at 32%). it's up to lin to adjust to harden since he's the lesser player by a considerable margin, not the other way around.


When he emerged last year on the Knicks, I had read a story about him working very hard the past offseason and changing his shooting stroke, and that the coach was not surprised at all at his improved shooting. Hopefully there was a true improvement and not a temporary increase, we'll see.
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Re: Jeremy Lin has been turned into Derek Fisher 

Post#155 » by 13th Man » Wed Nov 14, 2012 5:54 pm

BaYBaller wrote:You're oversimplfying. Yes Lin is a PG and Harden is a SG, but Harden is actually a better PnR player than Lin. The offense should and does revolve around Harden. Lin SHOULD be attacking the basket more as well because that is his strength offensively. HOU plays a spread offense, the lane should be open (well actually it hasn't because of poor 3pt shooting so far this season, but theoretically). Just because on one particular offensive set Lin is camped out on the 3pt line on the weak side does not mean he should always shoot the 3. He shoots it if he's wide open, but on close out situations he should be driving it aggressively into the lane. Currently he is not doing that. Not sure if his knee is still an issue or what, but he is clearly not aggressive enough when he does have the ball.

Harden is actually a really good passer in terms of swinging the ball to the weak side when they load up on him. Lin has had and will continue to have plenty of opportunities to do something with the ball and it's on Lin to do it. Not as much as during Linsanity but let's be real no NBA team is going to turn the keys to the offense to Lin as though he was some superstar PG.


Nobody has been PnR'ing well including Harden. If Harden is a better playmaker than Lin then he should have more assists game in and game out but I haven't seen this. Anyway, if the team insists that Harden should handle the ball most of the time then Lin will be forced into adapting which I don't agree but whatever. They still haven't played enough games for me to make proper judgement only time will tell.
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Re: Jeremy Lin has been turned into Derek Fisher 

Post#156 » by 13th Man » Wed Nov 14, 2012 5:57 pm

BaYBaller wrote:You're oversimplfying. Yes Lin is a PG and Harden is a SG, but Harden is actually a better PnR player than Lin. The offense should and does revolve around Harden. Lin SHOULD be attacking the basket more as well because that is his strength offensively. HOU plays a spread offense, the lane should be open (well actually it hasn't because of poor 3pt shooting so far this season, but theoretically). Just because on one particular offensive set Lin is camped out on the 3pt line on the weak side does not mean he should always shoot the 3. He shoots it if he's wide open, but on close out situations he should be driving it aggressively into the lane. Currently he is not doing that. Not sure if his knee is still an issue or what, but he is clearly not aggressive enough when he does have the ball.

Harden is actually a really good passer in terms of swinging the ball to the weak side when they load up on him. Lin has had and will continue to have plenty of opportunities to do something with the ball and it's on Lin to do it. Not as much as during Linsanity but let's be real no NBA team is going to turn the keys to the offense to Lin as though he was some superstar PG.


Nobody has been PnR'ing well including Harden. If Harden is a better playmaker than Lin then he should have more assists game in and game out but I haven't seen this. Anyway, if the team insists that Harden should handle the ball most of the time then Lin will be forced into adapting which I don't agree but whatever. They still haven't played enough games for me to make proper judgement only time will tell.
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Re: Jeremy Lin has been turned into Derek Fisher 

Post#157 » by madmaxmedia » Wed Nov 14, 2012 6:01 pm

BaYBaller wrote:You're oversimplfying. Yes Lin is a PG and Harden is a SG, but Harden is actually a better PnR player than Lin. The offense should and does revolve around Harden. Lin SHOULD be attacking the basket more as well because that is his strength offensively.


When I watched the Knicks last year, I often wondered why Lin wasn't better at the PnR game. The main weakness I saw is that when he got doubled off the PnR, he was consistently unable to get the ball to say Chandler sliding into the lane. He would often end up dribbling out to escape the double team.

I think that can come with practice and better anticipation of reacting to the defense, the PnR is great at creating opportunities if you can quickly react to the defense. You can beat the double team without too much difficulty, but you've got to be able to see it right as they're doing it, so you can look for a passing lane.

I think Lin is a good enough passer to be a good PnR player, he really needs to focus on practicing it. Now that he's a starting PG instead of 12th man I think there should be coaching resources available for it.
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Re: Jeremy Lin has been turned into Derek Fisher 

Post#158 » by madmaxmedia » Wed Nov 14, 2012 6:04 pm

People usually pick a big man with the PG for PnR tandems, but I wouldn't mind seeing Lin PnR with Harden at the top, to create an opening for either player. Both players are pretty good at creating in the paint, this could get them more of those situations.

13th Man wrote:Nobody has been PnR'ing well including Harden. If Harden is a better playmaker than Lin then he should have more assists game in and game out but I haven't seen this. Anyway, if the team insists that Harden should handle the ball most of the time then Lin will be forced into adapting which I don't agree but whatever. They still haven't played enough games for me to make proper judgement only time will tell.
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Re: Jeremy Lin has been turned into Derek Fisher 

Post#159 » by BaYBaller » Wed Nov 14, 2012 6:08 pm

13th Man wrote:
BaYBaller wrote:You're oversimplfying. Yes Lin is a PG and Harden is a SG, but Harden is actually a better PnR player than Lin. The offense should and does revolve around Harden. Lin SHOULD be attacking the basket more as well because that is his strength offensively. HOU plays a spread offense, the lane should be open (well actually it hasn't because of poor 3pt shooting so far this season, but theoretically). Just because on one particular offensive set Lin is camped out on the 3pt line on the weak side does not mean he should always shoot the 3. He shoots it if he's wide open, but on close out situations he should be driving it aggressively into the lane. Currently he is not doing that. Not sure if his knee is still an issue or what, but he is clearly not aggressive enough when he does have the ball.

Harden is actually a really good passer in terms of swinging the ball to the weak side when they load up on him. Lin has had and will continue to have plenty of opportunities to do something with the ball and it's on Lin to do it. Not as much as during Linsanity but let's be real no NBA team is going to turn the keys to the offense to Lin as though he was some superstar PG.


Nobody has been PnR'ing well including Harden. If Harden is a better playmaker than Lin then he should have more assists game in and game out but I haven't seen this. Anyway, if the team insists that Harden should handle the ball most of the time then Lin will be forced into adapting which I don't agree but whatever. They still haven't played enough games for me to make proper judgement only time will tell.



I'm obviously talking about last year. You can't base anything off of 7 games. Harden was one of the best PnR players in the league in terms of PPP and efficiency out of othe PnR. You can't just look at assists. Harden has quite a number of "hockey" assists this year because often times passing out of a trap from a PnR leads to hockey assists.
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Re: Jeremy Lin has been turned into Derek Fisher 

Post#160 » by diablerouge » Wed Nov 14, 2012 6:17 pm

so people are going to talk about 'hero ball' for harden not mentioning that he created two good looks from 3 for morris and chandler in the last 2 minutes and didn't hesitate to swing the ball to chandler who then swung it again to lin on a potentially game clinching 3? ok.

it's way too simplistic to say the ball should be in the PG's hands. that's never how creative wings like dwyane, kobe, lebron and even brandon roy in his prime operated. harden is not only a better finisher than lin, he's also a better PnR player and a better passer. the ball should in his hands.

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