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Are we witnessing Rondo's prime?

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Post#101 Re: Are we witnessing Rondo's prime?
Sun Nov 18, 2012 9:40 pm by MrBigShot

Speaking of Rondo, he has 6 assists at the moment...is this the game where the streak ends?

As far as the question, I don't think we are quite witnessing Rondo's peak. There is still a lot he can do to improve offensively..
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Post#102 Re: Are we witnessing Rondo's prime?
Sun Nov 18, 2012 10:04 pm by tsherkin

bertrob wrote:Would you really take Steph Curry over Rondo? And Pierce over Rondo but not Garnett?


I should have put Steph Curry in my "if he can stay healthy" pile. He's a good passer and a WAY better shooting threat than Rondo, so I think he's got more value, but his health is a big question, his ankles are a concern.

Garnett is playing under 30 mpg, he's 36 with over 46,000 minutes on him (RS-only) and he's fallen off pretty far in several notable areas. I WOULD have taken Garnett over Rondo even two seasons ago, but he's a shell of himself in every way save for defensive rebounding, so I'm too on the fence about him to be confident in choosing him over Rondo. At least at this stage of the season. With the others, I'm confident enough to state it. Shouldn't have with Curry, though.
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Post#103 Re: Are we witnessing Rondo's prime?
Sun Nov 18, 2012 10:09 pm by mid-post

I was with you up to the point where you were considering Curry over Rondo. I think that is kind of disrespectful. Especially when you consider Rondo turns it up in the playoffs.
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Post#104 Re: Are we witnessing Rondo's prime?
Sun Nov 18, 2012 10:28 pm by tsherkin

mid-post wrote:I was with you up to the point where you were considering Curry over Rondo. I think that is kind of disrespectful. Especially when you consider Rondo turns it up in the playoffs.


Eh.. I think it's that I don't value volume playmaking without quality scoring to back it up. There are too many volume playmakers in league history who didn't actually seem to impact team offense all that much, and Rondo shows a lot of those markers. I think that Steph Curry would look a lot better in an offense like Boston's than people think... much like what I said of Irving.

I don't think it's disrespectful of Rondo at all, I think rather highly of Curry. His health is an issue and of course he isn't a noteworthy defender, but for Boston? Rondo doesn't do a ton of complicated stuff, doesn't probe all that often with dribble penetration... he swings it around the wing a lot, he hits shooters coming around screens and he makes post entry passes. Not genius-level stuff. Rondo's capable of more, but there's greater value in Curry's ability to space, and he's clearly a very good passer himself. I think people often get wrapped up in the sexy numbers and stuff and forget that basketball offense is really about floor spacing, crisp ball movement and then taking advantage of the defense when it breaks down. It doesn't have to run through one guy rocking crazy APG and, unless it's an Oscar or Magic or Nash or something, it's often better NOT to play that kind of game.

Again, Rondo's a great PG, he is, but like Kidd before him, his lack of personal scoring punch really hurts his value and Boston's offense inflates his APG... but raw APG aren't by themselves all that valuable. I like Rondo, I think he's generally one of the best PGs in the league. I'm not overly fond of a high-APG PG unless he's also a high-efficiency offensive weapon (even low usage), though, because otherwise he's effectively over-reliant upon his teammates and his impact stems from the quality of offensive structure more than anything else. It's why guys like Paul and Nash are better, and it's why players like Irving and Curry strike me as at least as valuable, and perhaps more so. Billups, same thing. No one would confuse Billups for a volume playmaker, he's a pretty methodical guy, he's a great 3pt and FT shooter who draws fouls exceptionally well. That makes him hyper-efficient, and he is a good playmaker. You can be a great playmaker without producing a whack of assists, yeah? Controlling tempo, riding the hot hand, running good plays, fitting into the offense.

See what I mean? I think people are too hypnotized by Rondo's rep and his APG, just like people seem to think bloated volume PPG is inherently valuable.
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Post#105 Re: Are we witnessing Rondo's prime?
Sun Nov 18, 2012 10:50 pm by mid-post

tsherkin wrote: See what I mean? I think people are too hypnotized by Rondo's rep and his APG, just like people seem to think bloated volume PPG is inherently valuable.

Hey, I agree with you about the whole APG thing. I'm not sure how much offense he's actually generating, and watching Boston's offense is boooring.

But I still think he's proven himself in the playoffs (assists aside) as an elite competitor, very good defender and a nice quarterback. I think Curry still has a ton to prove.
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Post#106 Re: Are we witnessing Rondo's prime?
Sun Nov 18, 2012 10:54 pm by Blame Rasho

tskerkin... Simple question... Is Rondo's A game better than Curry's A game? I think you would, agree yes... Nn the consistency factor... who wins that between the two? I think you are making it far more complicated than it really is. Rondo is an all NBA/all star talent.... Curry... while a nice player... isn't there yet... and truthfully.... he has several steps away from getting there. There is a marginal difference in age(2 years) between the two as well.
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Post#107 Re: Are we witnessing Rondo's prime?
Sun Nov 18, 2012 11:08 pm by tsherkin

mid-post wrote:But I still think he's proven himself in the playoffs (assists aside) as an elite competitor, very good defender and a nice quarterback. I think Curry still has a ton to prove.


I don't disagree with this. I think Curry needs to prove he can stay healthy after a rough season last year, and I think he needs to get away from Golden State and play on a real team for a while. No offense to the Warriors or the city, I just have very little respect for the franchise in its current state. Interesting talent, but Mark Jackson is a tool and management isn't impressing me.

Blame Rasho wrote:tskerkin... Simple question... Is Rondo's A game better than Curry's A game? I think you would, agree yes...


Mmm. No, actually, I don't think I'd agree. Not clearly, anyway. I think Curry is undersold based on where he plays and the fact that he's been unhealthy of late (and is starting out poorly this year after all that time off and what-not). Rondo is clearly a better defender than Curry, but I still think Steph is a better offensive player and for me, that's far more important to a PG-type player. We'll see. Dell's kid needs to stay on the court, and then we'll see what happens. In 2010 and 2011, I don't think Rondo was better than Curry, but it's tough to tell a bit because Golden State wasn't exactly a wicked winning environment. But with that shot and the passing skills he does have, his approach to the game? Yeah, I tend to appreciate that kind of player as more portable, more influencing on his teammates while on the court, etc.

EDIT:

How do I say this more clearly? If you take a player who passes freely from the point and put them in Boston's offense, their assist volume is going to increase. Boston runs a lot of basic sets, really basic stuff that doesn't require a lot of court vision or precision timing, just waiting for a play to develop and making a simple pass... or just moving the ball quickly along the perimeter. Curry and Rondo both do that well.

Now, you take such a player, and instead of giving him the kind of athleticism Rondo has, you give him Steph's shot. Now, that changes things some because teams can't cheat on screens. They can't double off of him consistently. He makes the defense pay a little more attention to him, and then burns the hell out of them when he gets some space with greater consistency. He's not a target for fouls at the end of games because of his FT%. He's actually a pretty good pick-and-roll player. There's not much that Rondo can do on offense than Curry can't, and there's a lot more than Curry can which Rondo cannot... a gap that is more significant than the defensive value Rondo has over Curry.
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Post#108 Re: Are we witnessing Rondo's prime?
Sun Nov 18, 2012 11:45 pm by Doormatt

tsherkin wrote:Top 15 player, top 15 player...

Who would you take over Rondo right now? I'm thinking Rose and Dirk (when healthy), Pierce (until he shows me otherwise, which will happen soon), Steph Curry, Chris Paul, Dwight, Nash, Kobe, Lebron, Deron, Melo and Tony Parker. I'm strong considering adding Kyrie Irving and James Harden to that list.


kevin love (when healthy)? Aldridge? wade? i think youre missing a lot of players from that list. id say rondo is not close to a top 15 player yet.

i dont know how anyone wouldnt consider kyrie and harden better than rondo either.
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Post#109 Re: Are we witnessing Rondo's prime?
Mon Nov 19, 2012 12:23 am by tsherkin

I dunno, it's a tough call. Like I said, my hesitancy over Curry is all related to health; I don't think you can look at his skills on offense and really call Rondo a superior player. Most of the arguments people make for Rondo are on the basis of what Boston has accomplished as a team, and that's really not something that Rondo shoulders a ton. They won the title without him being a major factor in 2008 and that core stayed together. They declined, Rondo took on more responsibility, their peripheral talent fluctuated some and they made some mistakes (losing Perkins, for example) and suffered some bad luck (Posey signing with the Hornets, for example) and so they declined and Rondo wasn't good enough to overcome all of those things (including various injuries to other players and similar factors)... But people keep looking at this multiple All-Star team and assuming Rondo's driving everything, when he's not.

Very good player? Check. All-Star himself? Check. All-NBA? Not regularly, other guys are getting recognized over him more regularly... but All-NBA is also dominated by guys like Wade and Kobe and other high-profile 2 guards, not just PGs, so that's not a totally reliable way to look at this. Is he among the best PGs in the league? Yes, and that this is true is a testament to his overall ability, ala Kidd. Mixing defense, rebounding and savvy playmaking to cover up deficiencies as a scorer (or really I should say "shooter," since his handles are not at all a problem, nor his physical tools). Good stuff, good attitude, good team player, great competitor.

But I think people overrate him a little (a little, mind) and fail to consider the full picture of how things work (again, explicitly in the context of comparing him to his other elite peers at the PG position, not compared to, say, the average NBA player). And I think a lot of people don't really see how Boston operates, and what parts of it to which Rondo actually contributes versus those to which he does not. Also, his playoff performances have been overrated. He's an awful scorer, like most, worse there than in the RS, though because he cuts down his turnovers and improves his offensive rebounding, which helps out something like PS ORTG. He does step up his effort level, he's got another gear. He hits the boards harder, he puts a bit more effort in on defense, he's a little more careful about where he puts his passes and what he does. He plays smarter, he saves a little extra for the PS. It's part of what makes him a really good player. But I think people are too prone to mixing fascination with APG and team success without separating what a player actually did and did not do.

IMO, and this is especially true in a more structured system such as Boston's, shooting ability, an unselfish nature and PnR ability are the major influence factors in the value of a PG to the team. There are exceptions, I mean I can probably count the number of PnRs Magic ran on one hand, right? So there are always different styles and physical outliers and what-not. In more fluid systems, motion offenses, the triangle, there are different needs from playmakers, of course. Dribble penetration, for example, at which Rondo is better than Curry. Transition play, where I think Rondo is a more dynamic passer than Curry (although this is marginalized by Boston's slower pace, especially before this season).

Back to Rasho's question, do I think Rondo's A Game is better than Curry's? I don't know. Rondo is definitely a weaker scoring threat and while I think he's a better overall passer, I don't think it's a big enough gap to matter. Inevitably, when we talk about Rondo's performance, we're not talking about his defense. Individual defense isn't reliable and can be overcome with hot shooting... or screens, for example. I was in a thread recently, either this one or the thread on the PC Board, where someone was trying to say that Rondo played awful defense against Jennings in the first BOS/MIL game of the season... but what you see is that this is terribly untrue. Most of the time where Rondo was even involved in the play, he was getting wiped out on a screen... or he was there and Jennings hit a contested jumper, or made the pass that Boston's defensive strategy opened up. C'est la vie, yeah? That's the nature of individual defense.

So that means that we're talking about offensive performance... an area where Curry clearly has the advantage.

Doormatt wrote:
kevin love (when healthy)?


I've questions about his defense (which is important as a frontcourt player) and his ability to exert impact as an offensive player. He's not a great iso scorer. Good 3pt shooter, good FT shooter, great at converting offensive boards, etc. But he's not a takeover scorer and he's got some other issues. I'm on the fence with him, which is why I didn't include him.

Aldridge?


Nah. He had one outlier season as a scorer and is otherwise pedestrian in this regard. His ORTG comes from being a low-mistake guy, a really low-turnover player. Impressive, but not making mistakes isn't the same as making good plays. And of course, he's an unimpressive defensive rebounder, not an elite defender (even though he's a good one). I'm not a huge fan because he's not elite at basically anything but protecting the ball.

wade?


In years past, sure... Right now, definitely not. Wade is injured and playing like crap this season, young and SSS as it is. Last year... mmm. He's already losing his touch at drawing fouls, his jumper was as mediocre as ever, he was injured last season as well and he's marginalized next to Lebron. I'm not thrilled with the way he's playing, and he's into his 30s now. Much of what he does is enabled by others, he's less capable of asserting his will on the game, he's coming off of a weak Finals series... I'm not comfortable clearly rating him ahead based on the last 12 months or so.

i dont know how anyone wouldnt consider kyrie and harden better than rondo either.[/quote]
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Post#110 Re: Are we witnessing Rondo's prime?
Mon Nov 19, 2012 1:25 am by Pimpwerx

Prime? Pfft. He still can't shoot. Rondo's prime is gonna be scary. Length, underrated athleticism, incredibly bright, elite court vision, and something that doesn't get stated often enough, he hits his men in their sweet spots. People like to claim he just statpads, but he gets his teammates the ball where they like to score. That's why he can tally so many assists with a team that isn't necessarily full of shooters. He's a great player, and it's amazing considering where he was drafted. PEACE.
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Post#111 Re: Are we witnessing Rondo's prime?
Mon Nov 19, 2012 1:31 am by markjay

Pimpwerx wrote:Prime? Pfft. He still can't shoot. Rondo's prime is gonna be scary. Length, underrated athleticism, incredibly bright, elite court vision, and something that doesn't get stated often enough, he hits his men in their sweet spots. People like to claim he just statpads, but he gets his teammates the ball where they like to score. That's why he can tally so many assists with a team that isn't necessarily full of shooters. He's a great player, and it's amazing considering where he was drafted. PEACE.


He's shooting .550 from the free throw line this year and .250 3-pt fg%. What makes you think he's ever gonna learn to shoot?
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Post#112 Re: Are we witnessing Rondo's prime?
Mon Nov 19, 2012 1:35 am by AntwanBoldin

mid-post wrote:I was with you up to the point where you were considering Curry over Rondo. I think that is kind of disrespectful. Especially when you consider Rondo turns it up in the playoffs.



So he doesn't give 100% all The time ? I thought only Vince carter did that. Apparently the whole league leaves a little in that tank in the regular season and Toronto is just dumb
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Post#113 Re: Are we witnessing Rondo's prime?
Mon Nov 19, 2012 1:41 am by og15

Pimpwerx wrote:Prime? Pfft. He still can't shoot. Rondo's prime is gonna be scary. Length, underrated athleticism, incredibly bright, elite court vision, and something that doesn't get stated often enough, he hits his men in their sweet spots. People like to claim he just statpads, but he gets his teammates the ball where they like to score. That's why he can tally so many assists with a team that isn't necessarily full of shooters. He's a great player, and it's amazing considering where he was drafted. PEACE.

Some good points there, but the team is pretty much full of shooters. Terry (career 38% 3PT, 37.8% last season), Lee (career 38.2% 3PT, 40.1% last season), Barbosa (career 39.1% 3PT, 38.2% last season), Bass (10-11 in Orlando, 47.7% from 16-23), Paul Pierce (career 37% 3PT), Garnett (one of the greatest mid-range shooters). Darko Milicic, doesn't play for a reason (sorry, just had to get it in there).

...but Boston isn't dumb, at least it doesn't seem like it. They look like they knew what they were doing when they brought in the guys that they did. I'm just not sure if they can get KG to anchor the defense the same way, and with some newer guys coming in who don't know the defensive system as well, knowing where to funnel players, rotations etc don't seem as crisp.
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Post#114 Re: Are we witnessing Rondo's prime?
Mon Nov 19, 2012 1:48 am by StojkoVrankovic

markjay wrote:
Pimpwerx wrote:Prime? Pfft. He still can't shoot. Rondo's prime is gonna be scary. Length, underrated athleticism, incredibly bright, elite court vision, and something that doesn't get stated often enough, he hits his men in their sweet spots. People like to claim he just statpads, but he gets his teammates the ball where they like to score. That's why he can tally so many assists with a team that isn't necessarily full of shooters. He's a great player, and it's amazing considering where he was drafted. PEACE.


He's shooting .550 from the free throw line this year and .250 3-pt fg%. What makes you think he's ever gonna learn to shoot?

Funny how you left out a number, wonder why that is? Mmmmmmm
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Post#115 Re: Are we witnessing Rondo's prime?
Mon Nov 19, 2012 2:17 am by Frank Mulely

Curry is nowhere near Rondo. Curry would work best as a 6th man shooting specialist, like his pops.

As for Rondo, he can reach another level. This is definitely not, or shouldn't be, his prime yet.
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Post#116 Re: Are we witnessing Rondo's prime?
Mon Nov 19, 2012 8:11 am by tsherkin

StojkoVrankovic wrote:Funny how you left out a number, wonder why that is? Mmmmmmm


What, his FG%? Yeah, Rondo's shooting 52.0% FG right now. Wouldn't be the second time he shot 50%+ in the last five years, though, so it doesn't really change the narrative.

He still can't hit a FT, has no 3pt range and there's no way he'll continue to shoot the percentages he's shooting this season from 10 feet and out. Things to consider.
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Post#117 Re: Are we witnessing Rondo's prime?
Mon Nov 19, 2012 8:46 am by markjay

StojkoVrankovic wrote:
markjay wrote:
Pimpwerx wrote:Prime? Pfft. He still can't shoot. Rondo's prime is gonna be scary. Length, underrated athleticism, incredibly bright, elite court vision, and something that doesn't get stated often enough, he hits his men in their sweet spots. People like to claim he just statpads, but he gets his teammates the ball where they like to score. That's why he can tally so many assists with a team that isn't necessarily full of shooters. He's a great player, and it's amazing considering where he was drafted. PEACE.


He's shooting .550 from the free throw line this year and .250 3-pt fg%. What makes you think he's ever gonna learn to shoot?

Funny how you left out a number, wonder why that is? Mmmmmmm


His field goal percentage includes shots in the paint, so that doesn't really get to the point. If you'd like to bring in some specialized stats about his field goal percentage from different points on the court, please do so, as that would add to your point. I just grabbed the most easily available evidence.
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Post#118 Re: Are we witnessing Rondo's prime?
Mon Nov 19, 2012 11:56 am by j_angel

I know its only been ten games but his 3pt % is up 10 this season :P
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Post#119 Re: Are we witnessing Rondo's prime?
Mon Nov 19, 2012 12:56 pm by Pimpwerx

Jason Kidd eventually learned to shoot the ball, and I feel like Rondo has a lot better mechanics on his shot. I don't think Boston fans are making excuses when they say it's all mental for him. He is such a smart cat, that I wouldn't put it past him to figure it out a lot earlier than Kidd did. Maybe once he gets older and calms down a bit. He's still a really emotional player, so maybe mellowing out will calm the yips or whatever he has that's causing him to clank shots. Once he becomes even an average shooter, he'll be frightening to face. PEACE.
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Post#120 Re: Are we witnessing Rondo's prime?
Mon Nov 19, 2012 1:02 pm by og15

Pimpwerx wrote:Jason Kidd eventually learned to shoot the ball, and I feel like Rondo has a lot better mechanics on his shot. I don't think Boston fans are making excuses when they say it's all mental for him. He is such a smart cat, that I wouldn't put it past him to figure it out a lot earlier than Kidd did. Maybe once he gets older and calms down a bit. He's still a really emotional player, so maybe mellowing out will calm the yips or whatever he has that's causing him to clank shots. Once he becomes even an average shooter, he'll be frightening to face. PEACE.

Has Rondo gotten a shooting coach that stays on his hip? That's basically what Kidd did with Bob Thate, and that's what Blake is doing so far with the same guy that has helped him improve his shot as seen so far this season.
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