Race to the MVP pt. II

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Re: Race to the MVP pt. II 

Post#61 » by SideshowBob » Sun Dec 9, 2012 5:14 am

fallacy wrote:I don't think people understand how ludicrous that is. If you're a Lebron or Melo fan, don't look at their on/off numbers. Seriously, it will just make you feel bad.


While its certainly impressive, its still only 25% of the season. Have you seen some of the other star players in the past 10 years?

Garnett 02: +10.1, +46.6 PS
Garnett 03: +23.6, +10.4 PS
Garnett 04: +20.7, +26.7 PS
Garnett 06: +10.8
Garnett 07: +14.8
Garnett 08: +11.8, +19.8 PS
Garnett 09: +10.7
Garnett 11: +16.1, +22.3
Garnett 12: +10.9, +35.6 PS
Duncan 01: +12.5, +38.8 PS
Duncan 02: +9.4, +23.3 PS
Duncan 03: +14.7, +23.1 PS
Duncan 05: +17.7, -5.2 PS
Duncan 06: +4.2, +13.1 PS
Duncan 07: +14.5, +5.2 PS
Dirk 01: +17.7, -0.7 PS
Dirk 02: +8.1, -20.2 PS
Dirk 03: +20.4, +1.6 PS
Dirk 05: +13.5, -5.2 PS
Dirk 06: +8.2, +6.9 PS
Dirk 07: +12.5, +4.6 PS
Dirk 08: +11.8, +13.1 PS
Dirk 09: +5.8, +15.8 PS
Dirk 10: +9.3, -16.1 PS
Dirk 11: +16.1, +16.8 PS
Dirk 12: +12.8, -9.8 PS
Kobe 02: +8.8, +14.2 PS
Kobe 03: +10.0, +17.3 PS
Kobe 06: +12.6, -17.0 PS
Kobe 08: +7.0, +8.9 PS
Kobe 09: +11.1, +12.4 PS
Shaq 02: +9.9, +22.9 PS
Shaq 03: +12.8, +11.9 PS
Shaq 04: +11.6, +25.4 PS
Wade 06: +15.2, +22.2 PS
Wade 09: +14.2, +13.5 PS
James 06: +10.4, -21.1 PS
James 07: +8.8, +24.2 PS
James 08: +10.9, +24.6 PS
James 09: +21.2, +8.4 PS
James 10: +16.8, +23.2 PS
James 11: +9.0, -14.6 PS
James 12: +14.0, +24.3 PS
Paul 08: +9.0, +11.7 PS
Paul 09: +19.6, +8.2 PS
Paul 11: +13.9, +22.7 PS
Nash 05: +14.9, -0.5 PS
Nash 06: +9.1, +20.4 PS
Nash 07: +11.7, +4.8 PS
Nash 08: +14.6, -7.0


So, couple things to note. First, it needs to be said that you generally see these kinds of On/Off numbers when star players are lifting poor teams, and while they look impressive statistically, they aren't necessarily as impressive as putting up good, but not GREAT On/Off numbers on excellent teams (not saying this applies to the situation we're discussing here, just making a point).

Second, what Durant is doing right now ISN'T entirely unheard of obviously, but well, just look at that list. Those are some impressive seasons to stack up against if he can keep this up.

Lastly, take a look at how dramatic the fluctuation can be from RS to PS. Surely its not because these star players value can change THAT dramatically not only year-to-year, but RS-to-PS. No, its simply because of the sample size in the PS. We see some epic dropoffs (Dirk 03, Dirk 12, Duncan 05, Duncan 07, Kobe 06, James 06, James 09 (!?) James 11, Nash 05, Nash 08, Paul 09), and some epic explosions (Garnett 02, James 07, James 08, Duncan 01, Dirk 09). Its all because of the small samples we're studying in the PS, and TBH, it makes the data largely useless. That's why it'd be wise to be cautious when comparing On/Off numbers for the season ATM. 20 odd games is not going to allow On/Off to tell you what its trying to tell you accurately, there's too much game-to-game variance throwing off the data. It'd be smarter to really start referencing that when we get to the ~75% mark.

Understand that with that said, Durant still doesn't look any less impressive. He's having a monster season, by any measure.
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Re: Race to the MVP pt. II 

Post#62 » by SideshowBob » Sun Dec 9, 2012 5:17 am

dream_catcher_9 wrote:so basically when he is on the court, OKC is beating their opponents by 15 points a game. :o


No. ORTG/DRTG are adjusted to per100 possessions. So OKC is outscoring their opponents by 14.6 points per 100 possessions with Durant on the floor.

Also, this is not sustainable over 48 minutes. OKC wouldn't be winning by 15 points per game if Durant played 48 minutes a game. Each additional minute played (per player and for the team as a whole) has diminishing net value, and at some point will start adding negative value. That's why players play regulated minutes, its possible for a positive impact player to become a negative impact player if he exceeds his optimal playtime.
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Re: Race to the MVP pt. II 

Post#63 » by fallacy » Sun Dec 9, 2012 5:20 am

SideshowBob wrote:
fallacy wrote:I don't think people understand how ludicrous that is. If you're a Lebron or Melo fan, don't look at their on/off numbers. Seriously, it will just make you feel bad.


While its certainly impressive, its still only 25% of the season. Have you seen some of the other star players in the past 10 years?

Garnett 02: +10.1, +46.6 PS
Garnett 03: +23.6, +10.4 PS
Garnett 04: +20.7, +26.7 PS
Garnett 06: +10.8
Garnett 07: +14.8
Garnett 08: +11.8, +19.8 PS
Garnett 09: +10.7
Garnett 11: +16.1, +22.3
Garnett 12: +10.9, +35.6 PS
Duncan 01: +12.5, +38.8 PS
Duncan 02: +9.4, +23.3 PS
Duncan 03: +14.7, +23.1 PS
Duncan 05: +17.7, -5.2 PS
Duncan 06: +4.2, +13.1 PS
Duncan 07: +14.5, +5.2 PS
Dirk 01: +17.7, -0.7 PS
Dirk 02: +8.1, -20.2 PS
Dirk 03: +20.4, +1.6 PS
Dirk 05: +13.5, -5.2 PS
Dirk 06: +8.2, +6.9 PS
Dirk 07: +12.5, +4.6 PS
Dirk 08: +11.8, +13.1 PS
Dirk 09: +5.8, +15.8 PS
Dirk 10: +9.3, -16.1 PS
Dirk 11: +16.1, +16.8 PS
Dirk 12: +12.8, -9.8 PS
Kobe 02: +8.8, +14.2 PS
Kobe 03: +10.0, +17.3 PS
Kobe 06: +12.6, -17.0 PS
Kobe 08: +7.0, +8.9 PS
Kobe 09: +11.1, +12.4 PS
Shaq 02: +9.9, +22.9 PS
Shaq 03: +12.8, +11.9 PS
Shaq 04: +11.6, +25.4 PS
Wade 06: +15.2, +22.2 PS
Wade 09: +14.2, +13.5 PS
James 06: +10.4, -21.1 PS
James 07: +8.8, +24.2 PS
James 08: +10.9, +24.6 PS
James 09: +21.2, +8.4 PS
James 10: +16.8, +23.2 PS
James 11: +9.0, -14.6 PS
James 12: +14.0, +24.3 PS
Paul 08: +9.0, +11.7 PS
Paul 09: +19.6, +8.2 PS
Paul 11: +13.9, +22.7 PS
Nash 05: +14.9, -0.5 PS
Nash 06: +9.1, +20.4 PS
Nash 07: +11.7, +4.8 PS
Nash 08: +14.6, -7.0


So, couple things to note. First, it needs to be said that you generally see these kinds of On/Off numbers when star players are lifting poor teams, and while they look impressive statistically, they aren't necessarily as impressive as putting up good, but not GREAT On/Off numbers on excellent teams (not saying this applies to the situation we're discussing here, just making a point).

Second, what Durant is doing right now ISN'T entirely unheard of obviously, but well, just look at that list. Those are some impressive seasons to stack up against if he can keep this up.

Lastly, take a look at how dramatic the fluctuation can be from RS to PS. Surely its not because these star players value can change THAT dramatically not only year-to-year, but RS-to-PS. No, its simply because of the sample size in the PS. We see some epic dropoffs (Dirk 03, Dirk 12, Duncan 05, Duncan 07, Kobe 06, James 06, James 09 (!?) James 11, Nash 05, Nash 08, Paul 09), and some epic explosions (Garnett 02, James 07, James 08, Duncan 01, Dirk 09). Its all because of the small samples we're studying in the PS, and TBH, it makes the data largely useless. That's why it'd be wise to be cautious when comparing On/Off numbers for the season ATM. 20 odd games is not going to allow On/Off to tell you what its trying to tell you accurately, there's too much game-to-game variance throwing off the data. It'd be smarter to really start referencing that when we get to the ~75% mark.

Understand that with that said, Durant still doesn't look any less impressive. He's having a monster season, by any measure.


I don't know what PS means, but the fact that only one person on that list has a higher net rating than current Durant (03 Garnett) makes it absurd how amazing Durant is playing currently. Factor that he's doing that on an great team is amazing
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Re: Race to the MVP pt. II 

Post#64 » by SideshowBob » Sun Dec 9, 2012 5:21 am

fallacy wrote:I don't know what PS means, but the fact that only one person on that list has a higher net rating than current Durant (03 Garnett) makes it absurd how amazing Durant is playing currently.


Postseason. With that in mind, read it again.
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Re: Race to the MVP pt. II 

Post#65 » by LikeABosh » Sun Dec 9, 2012 5:22 am

fallacy wrote:Durant's updated On/Off stats for the season

Offensive rating with Durant on the court: 116.1
Offensive rating with Durant on the bench: 102.5

Defensive rating with Durant on the court: 101.5
Defensive rating with Durant on the bench: 110.7


A net rating of twenty two point eight


I don't think people understand how ludicrous that is. If you're a Lebron or Melo fan, don't look at their on/off numbers. Seriously, it will just make you feel bad.

EDIT: and if you're a fan of Harden, REALLY don't look at on/off numbers :lol:


Impressive, but when does westbrook get subbed in/out? If both durant and westbrook get subbed out at the same time, the offensive/defensive disparity should be expected to be that large.
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Re: Race to the MVP pt. II 

Post#66 » by fallacy » Sun Dec 9, 2012 5:24 am

LikeABosh wrote:
fallacy wrote:Durant's updated On/Off stats for the season

Offensive rating with Durant on the court: 116.1
Offensive rating with Durant on the bench: 102.5

Defensive rating with Durant on the court: 101.5
Defensive rating with Durant on the bench: 110.7


A net rating of twenty two point eight


I don't think people understand how ludicrous that is. If you're a Lebron or Melo fan, don't look at their on/off numbers. Seriously, it will just make you feel bad.

EDIT: and if you're a fan of Harden, REALLY don't look at on/off numbers :lol:


Impressive, but when does westbrook get subbed in/out? If both durant and westbrook get subbed out at the same time, the offensive/defensive disparity should be expected to be that large.


Durant comes out with 4 minutes left in the first and returns without westbrook to start the second quarter. Same thing in the second half, unless durant plays the whole second half. They are staggered this year now that Harden is gone.
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Re: Race to the MVP pt. II 

Post#67 » by fallacy » Sun Dec 9, 2012 5:25 am

SideshowBob wrote:
fallacy wrote:I don't know what PS means, but the fact that only one person on that list has a higher net rating than current Durant (03 Garnett) makes it absurd how amazing Durant is playing currently.


Postseason. With that in mind, read it again.


obviously sample size is always a concern, but we've got to talk about something until the season is over :wink:
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Re: Race to the MVP pt. II 

Post#68 » by Bravely Done » Sun Dec 9, 2012 5:31 am

TheGarden wrote:
and thats why I cant take any of what some of you say serious


Fact doesn't coincide with your opinion. No one thinks Melo is that kind of talent. No one.
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Re: Race to the MVP pt. II 

Post#69 » by SideshowBob » Sun Dec 9, 2012 5:32 am

Westbrook is a net +13.1 (+13.6 ON/+0.5 OFF). So yes, you do have to figure that both of them are boosted in this statistic by playing with each other.

Here's Durant/Westbrook with/without each other. The +/- is given (this is NOT On/Off, it is simple plus/minus), and it can be adjusted to 100possessions.

http://tinyurl.com/cmpn3bt

Here's the pace with each player on the floor

http://bkref.com/tiny/HcIfe

Durant +/- (per100)

Overall: +11.3
W/Westbrook: +10.6
W/o Westbrook: +15.5

Westbrook +/- (per100)

Overall: +10.5
W/Durant: +10.6
W/o Durant: +8.0
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Re: Race to the MVP pt. II 

Post#70 » by TheGarden » Sun Dec 9, 2012 7:19 am

Bravely Done wrote:
TheGarden wrote:
and thats why I cant take any of what some of you say serious


Fact doesn't coincide with your opinion. No one thinks Melo is that kind of talent. No one.


A lot of people do and he's proving it hell he's proved it, facts are the guy never played with another Elite talent for a full season his entire career and still puts up great numbers
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Re: Race to the MVP pt. II 

Post#71 » by bbms » Sun Dec 9, 2012 4:59 pm

Too caught on star players and big names. Melo's been on great teams with a complete cast of players for his entire carreer.
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Re: Race to the MVP pt. II 

Post#72 » by ROballer » Sun Dec 9, 2012 5:22 pm

fallacy wrote:Durant's updated On/Off stats for the season

Offensive rating with Durant on the court: 116.1
Offensive rating with Durant on the bench: 102.5

Defensive rating with Durant on the court: 101.5
Defensive rating with Durant on the bench: 110.7


A net rating of twenty two point eight


I don't think people understand how ludicrous that is. If you're a Lebron or Melo fan, don't look at their on/off numbers. Seriously, it will just make you feel bad.

EDIT: and if you're a fan of Harden, REALLY don't look at on/off numbers :lol:


These kind of stats can be misleading


Lebron's currently at +0.6 for example :lol: :lol:

I checked the Lakers statistics for the most part(Laker fan) and Kobe was routinely a +25 until a few games ago
He's at +20.2 right now

Dwight's at -10.0

Don't want to take anything from Durant here,I consider him hands down the MVP right now but I'm just saying,there are some odd results out there.....it's really not the best barometer in MVP consideration
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Re: Race to the MVP pt. II 

Post#73 » by theokie » Sun Dec 9, 2012 5:32 pm

TheGarden wrote:
theokie wrote:Its really just ignorant when KD, Melo, LeBron or anyone else puts put big numbers in a game and people try to discredit it. 36, 9 and 4 is impressive. A triple double is impressive. People have so much blind hate on there that no matter what a player does, they will grasp at straws trying to discredit it.

"he played a bad team"
"he played too many minutes"
"he gets too much help from the ref"
"not that hard to do that when your team is stacked"

These arguments generally have no merit. Just admit the guy had a good game. If it was so "easy" to put those numbers up everyone would be doing it.


here's where I stand on these points

"he played a bad team" - this should never be an excuse to knock a player in my opinion
"he played too many minutes"- he is playing more minutes than other MVP candidates so his numbers should be better
"he gets too much help from the ref"- he does get a ton of calls that are questionable fouls or things refs would let go on if it were say Rudy Gay
"not that hard to do that when your team is stacked"- his team isn't stacked but he plays with another Elite talent which means coaches are less inclined to double, triple and trap KD because it gives Westbrook more room to attack, leaves Martin open or allows driving lanes for finishers like Ibaka and Perkins



You completely missed the point. I was defending all three guys.

People can just as easily say that Carmelo's teammates are the reason why his team is performing good (see Heat game) and that he gets too much help from the ref (6th in FTA per game). But i won't, because unlike you i see that these arguments are baseless and meritless, and id rather not use them at the risk of looking like a blind homer.



TheGarden wrote:
and thats why I cant take any of what some of you say serious


Aren't you the one that said you're going to think Carmelo is the better than Durant and that nobody can change your mind on that? How is anyone supposed to take you serious?
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Re: Race to the MVP pt. II 

Post#74 » by therealbig3 » Sun Dec 9, 2012 5:48 pm

bbms wrote:Too caught on star players and big names. Melo's been on great teams with a complete cast of players for his entire carreer.


Exactly.

His Nuggets teams were pretty stacked, people never realize that. You replace him with LeBron or Wade during his Nuggets career, and they win at least one title. You couldn't reasonably ask for more help imo, those supporting casts were easily good enough for title runs.
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Re: Race to the MVP pt. II 

Post#75 » by ShowTimeERA » Sun Dec 9, 2012 5:57 pm

therealbig3 wrote:
bbms wrote:Too caught on star players and big names. Melo's been on great teams with a complete cast of players for his entire carreer.


Exactly.

His Nuggets teams were pretty stacked, people never realize that. You replace him with LeBron or Wade during his Nuggets career, and they win at least one title. You couldn't reasonably ask for more help imo, those supporting casts were easily good enough for title runs.


Yes his 09 cast was a championship team. I always thought that who ever won the WCF, would have went on to win the title that year. Problem was they ran into Kobe Bryant, Pau Gasol, and a team on a mission...
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Re: Race to the MVP pt. II 

Post#76 » by theokie » Sun Dec 9, 2012 6:16 pm

When Steve Nash comes back and he takes a sub .500 lottery team and turns them into a 55+ win team and a championship contender he wins his 3rd MVP right? /slightlygreenfont
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Re: Race to the MVP pt. II 

Post#77 » by therealbig3 » Sun Dec 9, 2012 6:17 pm

ShowTimeERA wrote:
therealbig3 wrote:
bbms wrote:Too caught on star players and big names. Melo's been on great teams with a complete cast of players for his entire carreer.


Exactly.

His Nuggets teams were pretty stacked, people never realize that. You replace him with LeBron or Wade during his Nuggets career, and they win at least one title. You couldn't reasonably ask for more help imo, those supporting casts were easily good enough for title runs.


Yes his 09 cast was a championship team. I always thought that who ever won the WCF, would have went on to win the title that year. Problem was they ran into Kobe Bryant, Pau Gasol, and a team on a mission...


Whoever came out of the West was going to win by default, since Orlando was a really weak Finalist, and only got there because the Celtics' best player got injured.

The Celtics probably win that year if KG was healthy.
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Re: Race to the MVP pt. II 

Post#78 » by therealbig3 » Sun Dec 9, 2012 6:23 pm

theokie wrote:When Steve Nash comes back and he takes a sub .500 lottery team and turns them into a 55+ win team and a championship contender he wins his 3rd MVP right? /slightlygreenfont


:rofl:
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Re: Race to the MVP pt. II 

Post#79 » by ShowTimeERA » Mon Dec 10, 2012 12:40 am

therealbig3 wrote:
The Celtics probably win that year if KG was healthy.


And LA probably wins if Bynum is healthy in 08, see how that works?

In reality 08 was much closer than people want to believe or remember...

GM 1 was close throughout until Paul put on his usual act and uplifted the team.
GM 2 was one of the poorest ref'd games in history of the NBA...Leon Powe shoots more FT's than entire LA team.
GM 3 - LA won
GM 4 - LA blew large lead
GM 5 - LA won
GM 6 - Boston blew LA out
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Re: Race to the MVP pt. II 

Post#80 » by MisterWestside » Mon Dec 10, 2012 12:53 am

ShowTimeERA wrote:And LA probably wins if Bynum is healthy in 08, see how that works?


And, if Bynum is healthy in '08, you don't trade for Gasol. See how that works?

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