Race to the MVP pt. II

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Re: Race to the MVP pt. II 

Post#361 » by TheGarden » Fri Dec 14, 2012 1:42 pm

KDgoat wrote:
Allan Houston wrote:I seriously don't know how some people think "he won't keep playing like this" is a legitimate argument. Do you people debate with 9 year olds?


It is as much a legitimate argument as your argument thinking he will keep on playing like this. The past is always the best predictor of the future (and the only one in my opinion), and Melo his best 3P% over the course of an entire season is 42% from 2 years ago. Apart from that he hasn't been over 37% at all, and only reached that 37% twice.

He's shooting 45.5% now. Can he sustain it? Of course he can. Will he sustain it? I doubt it. In any case, he's less likely to continue shooting at this spectacular rate than he is to sustain or even improve it.

Apart from his 3P% (and his increased 3P shot attempts), his statistics look a lot like something he has done in the past. The eye test however show he's playing differently from before. Despite his career high usage rate, he's playing more off the ball (ironically), letting someone else dictate the flow of the offense, and I personally think he's playing better D (even though his defensive rating has been better last year).

The sample is still small, and in sports it's always too small to consider statistics as sufficiently valid imo. Nevertheless, it's interesting to keep track of.


what about Durant is he going to keep shooting what he's shooting or is he a machine, Carmelo is taking great rhythm shots why wont he make them

I'm just waiting for one naysayer to say he's arrived I though the Brooklyn game proved that, then the Lakers game but damn lets keep waiting sooner or late Melo will suck and then you guys can say I told you so

pathetic
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Re: Race to the MVP pt. II 

Post#362 » by Albert23 » Fri Dec 14, 2012 1:43 pm

Brickz7 wrote:Im also one of the people who feel Carmelo is Better than Durant..To keep it brief and simple..he is a better scorer than durant..scores in every way shape in form. Durant = no/very limted post game..(even charles barkley said this multiple times last night) on the other end there both are avg defenders. Both are ok passers but melo see's more double teams than durant

Honestly, that's not the best logic. Carmelo "scores in every way shape in form," ignoring your homicide on English, why does Carmelo suffer in FG% then? Now, if Sir Charles says Durant has no post game, then I'm confident his post game is amazing :lol: :lol:. And if Melo sees more double teams, doesn't that enable him to dish it out to the open man for more than 2.0 assists per game?
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Re: Race to the MVP pt. II 

Post#363 » by bwgood77 » Fri Dec 14, 2012 1:46 pm

regGQ wrote:I'm taking Melo over Durant this season, sorry.


Why? Durant has a higher rebound rate, a much higher assist rate (more than twice) and then if you want to look at shooting, Durant even has a higher true shooting perentage? Durant plays better D too..

Not sure why you would pick Melo unless you want "most improved" to enter into the equation.
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Re: Race to the MVP pt. II 

Post#364 » by omerome » Fri Dec 14, 2012 1:54 pm

Albert23 wrote:
Brickz7 wrote:Im also one of the people who feel Carmelo is Better than Durant..To keep it brief and simple..he is a better scorer than durant..scores in every way shape in form. Durant = no/very limted post game..(even charles barkley said this multiple times last night) on the other end there both are avg defenders. Both are ok passers but melo see's more double teams than durant

Honestly, that's not the best logic. Carmelo "scores in every way shape in form," ignoring your homicide on English, why does Carmelo suffer in FG% then? Now, if Sir Charles says Durant has no post game, then I'm confident his post game is amazing :lol: :lol:. And if Melo sees more double teams, doesn't that enable him to dish it out to the open man for more than 2.0 assists per game?

Your logic isn't much better honestly. There are things that boxscore and advanced statistics won't show you or won't give you the whole picture.

Melo isn't averaging and doesn't even need to average 3+ assists a game because he has PGs who know how to move the ball. His ball movement is still very obvious in getting teammates open shots and he doesn't always get credited for the assist. I'm sure he doesn't care too much his stats either. He is helping the team to it's best start in years. Again, Melo only averaging 2 assists a game doesn't mean he's a selfish player or a bad passer. To get a better idea of what I mean, you really need to watch how the ball moves during Knick possessions. Following box scores won't give you the answer.

But hey, I'll once again leave all of statisticians of this board to argue about PER, TS%, SOS, SAS, WTF, and LOL.
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Re: Race to the MVP pt. II 

Post#365 » by TheGarden » Fri Dec 14, 2012 2:04 pm

bwgood77 wrote:
regGQ wrote:I'm taking Melo over Durant this season, sorry.


Why? Durant has a higher rebound rate, a much higher assist rate (more than twice) and then if you want to look at shooting, Durant even has a higher true shooting perentage? Durant plays better D too..

Not sure why you would pick Melo unless you want "most improved" to enter into the equation.


hi John Hollinger
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Re: Race to the MVP pt. II 

Post#366 » by HurricaneKid » Fri Dec 14, 2012 2:46 pm

I seriously LOL when I read through some of these Melo for MVP posts.

Apparently, Melo does all the things perfectly that no one can quantify, while LeBron and KD are terrible at them. What are those things? No one even seems to know.

All the things you CAN quantify? Those are all going elsewhere. But no one cares.
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Re: Race to the MVP pt. II 

Post#367 » by Albert23 » Fri Dec 14, 2012 2:49 pm

omerome wrote:
Albert23 wrote:
Brickz7 wrote:Im also one of the people who feel Carmelo is Better than Durant..To keep it brief and simple..he is a better scorer than durant..scores in every way shape in form. Durant = no/very limted post game..(even charles barkley said this multiple times last night) on the other end there both are avg defenders. Both are ok passers but melo see's more double teams than durant

Honestly, that's not the best logic. Carmelo "scores in every way shape in form," ignoring your homicide on English, why does Carmelo suffer in FG% then? Now, if Sir Charles says Durant has no post game, then I'm confident his post game is amazing :lol: :lol:. And if Melo sees more double teams, doesn't that enable him to dish it out to the open man for more than 2.0 assists per game?

Your logic isn't much better honestly. There are things that boxscore and advanced statistics won't show you or won't give you the whole picture.

Melo isn't averaging and doesn't even need to average 3+ assists a game because he has PGs who know how to move the ball. His ball movement is still very obvious in getting teammates open shots and he doesn't always get credited for the assist. I'm sure he doesn't care too much his stats either. He is helping the team to it's best start in years. Again, Melo only averaging 2 assists a game doesn't mean he's a selfish player or a bad passer. To get a better idea of what I mean, you really need to watch how the ball moves during Knick possessions. Following box scores won't give you the answer.

But hey, I'll once again leave all of statisticians of this board to argue about PER, TS%, SOS, SAS, WTF, and LOL.

I don't see the point of saying that, don't bait or troll. These are legitimate statistics and they show his limitations. This debate reminds me of people trying to discredit MLB sabermetrics just because they hurt their argument. I've watched the NY games and I've watched the Miami games, LeBron has a larger impact and it shows in the often-quoted statement of "Melo is a harder individual to guard, but LeBron is harder for a team to guard," why? Because LeBron is the heart and soul of any team and does not need to be fed off others. Again, NY is doing great because of their amazing team effort, not because Carmelo is willing them there. Carmelo is still shooting 46% and this is indisputable.
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Re: Race to the MVP pt. II 

Post#368 » by omerome » Fri Dec 14, 2012 3:00 pm

Albert23 wrote:I don't see the point of saying that, don't bait or troll. These are legitimate statistics and they show his limitations. This debate reminds me of people trying to discredit MLB sabermetrics just because they hurt their argument. I've watched the NY games and I've watched the Miami games, LeBron has a larger impact and it shows in the often-quoted statement of "Melo is a harder individual to guard, but LeBron is harder for a team to guard," why? Because LeBron is the heart and soul of any team and does not need to be fed off others. Again, NY is doing great because of their amazing team effort, not because Carmelo is willing them there. Carmelo is still shooting 46% and this is indisputable.

I'm not baiting or trolling with that last statement. There was some sarcasm there but for the most part, I'm serious.

I am not saying that Melo is a better player than LeBron because he isn't. But look at the results. Melo is playing a huge role for the Knicks and why they are leading the Eastern Conference right now. I guess the fact that Melo is "only" shooting 46% further proves my argument about statistics. Name me one other player on the Knicks who can give you 20+ points on a given night other than Melo. Now, name me one player on the Thunder or Heat who can do the same. I guarantee you can give me names for the later and struggle for the former.

See why FG% is a very misleading factor in deciding how valuable a player is to a team?

I swear, when advanced stats are brought up to compare players, my eyes glaze over...
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Re: Race to the MVP pt. II 

Post#369 » by OptimusOne6 » Fri Dec 14, 2012 3:20 pm

There is no context that explains why Melo is better than Durant. The only context you can make is excuses or things that don't matter, like Melo has more moves, Durant gets BS calls, etc. I always lol at the Durant gets BS calls one, clear cut bias when someone says something like that.

The reason why everybody thinks Melo will drop off is because Melo does to have hot starts but decline later on, if you need examples look at his 2010 and 2007 seasons. In the 2007 season, he was looking good, the league leader in scoring until Allen Iverson was traded to Denver. In the 2010 season, Melo was the front-runner for the MVP, but then he slowly declined and then both Durant and Lebron overtook him in the MVP ballot.
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Re: Race to the MVP pt. II 

Post#370 » by Im Coming Home » Fri Dec 14, 2012 3:47 pm

Albert23 wrote:
Brickz7 wrote:Im also one of the people who feel Carmelo is Better than Durant..To keep it brief and simple..he is a better scorer than durant..scores in every way shape in form. Durant = no/very limted post game..(even charles barkley said this multiple times last night) on the other end there both are avg defenders. Both are ok passers but melo see's more double teams than durant

Honestly, that's not the best logic. Carmelo "scores in every way shape in form," ignoring your homicide on English, why does Carmelo suffer in FG% then? Now, if Sir Charles says Durant has no post game, then I'm confident his post game is amazing :lol: :lol:. And if Melo sees more double teams, doesn't that enable him to dish it out to the open man for more than 2.0 assists per game?

He doesn't have Russel Westbrook on his team to help keep the defense not 100% focused on him.
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Re: Race to the MVP pt. II 

Post#371 » by Hero » Fri Dec 14, 2012 4:09 pm

Melo


Durant
LeBron


at the moment.
bena2005 wrote:I see Bargnani stepping his game up at an all-star status. He's probably going to become the main focus on the team once bosh leave and will show what he's capable of,
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Re: Race to the MVP pt. II 

Post#372 » by Albert23 » Fri Dec 14, 2012 4:31 pm

omerome wrote:
Albert23 wrote:I don't see the point of saying that, don't bait or troll. These are legitimate statistics and they show his limitations. This debate reminds me of people trying to discredit MLB sabermetrics just because they hurt their argument. I've watched the NY games and I've watched the Miami games, LeBron has a larger impact and it shows in the often-quoted statement of "Melo is a harder individual to guard, but LeBron is harder for a team to guard," why? Because LeBron is the heart and soul of any team and does not need to be fed off others. Again, NY is doing great because of their amazing team effort, not because Carmelo is willing them there. Carmelo is still shooting 46% and this is indisputable.
...Melo is playing a huge role for the Knicks and why they are leading the Eastern Conference right now. I guess the fact that Melo is "only" shooting 46% further proves my argument about statistics. Name me one other player on the Knicks who can give you 20+ points on a given night other than Melo. Now, name me one player on the Thunder or Heat who can do the same. I guarantee you can give me names for the later and struggle for the former...

The newly transformed Felton can give you 20+ points on a given night. But now, take Melo away from the team, and then you have a squad that seemingly annihilates the world champs, albeit its only one game, but its food for thought. Take away LeBron, HEAVEN FORBID, take a away Kevin Durant and what do you think happens to their teams? Miami would likely squeak in the playoffs, but OKC would get thrashed.

But I don't quite comprehend your point here; because NY doesn't have the second and third options that MIA does, that means Melo should shoot 46%? Hasn't he shot higher percentages on worse teams? I thought Melo was the dude eating the beautiful passes from Kidd, I thought he was the best scorer in the NBA? What I'm getting at is, there is no excuse for an MVP to shoot 46% with only 2.0 APG. These are NOT advanced stats. LeBron shot 48, 49, 50% with D-Leaguers in Cleveland.

Im Coming Home wrote:He doesn't have Russel Westbrook on his team to help keep the defense not 100% focused on him.

Westbrook is shooting 41%, defenses are double-teaming Durant and baiting Russ into shooting.
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Re: Race to the MVP pt. II 

Post#373 » by fallacy » Fri Dec 14, 2012 4:51 pm

27 pts, 9 rebs, 4 asts, 2 stls, 1 blk, 3 TO, .51/.43/.89 .642 ts%, 28.0 PER, 18-4

>>>

28 pts, 6 rebs, 2 asts, 1 stls, 1 blk, 3 TO, .47/.46/.81 .592 ts%, 26.1 PER, 17-5


1. Durant
2. Melo

3. Lebron
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Re: Race to the MVP pt. II 

Post#374 » by osamu » Fri Dec 14, 2012 5:02 pm

Melo is great, actually glad that he's relevant again. But it will be pretty amazing if he keeps this up. He's done it before in the first half of the season in Denver, then lost his flow (think he got injured). But NYK fans shouldn't get angered if we think he's going to cool down, because I don't remember Melo being this good for a full season. We can argue all we want, but until Melo doesn't you can blame me for being a skeptic.
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Re: Race to the MVP pt. II 

Post#375 » by EscapoTHB » Fri Dec 14, 2012 5:07 pm

Melo will only get it if the knicks win the east. And are better than the thunder. Lot of season to go. Only reason melo is in the discussion is because the knicks are winning.

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Re: Race to the MVP pt. II 

Post#376 » by omerome » Fri Dec 14, 2012 5:12 pm

EscapoTHB wrote:Melo will only get it if the knicks win the east. And are better than the thunder. Lot of season to go. Only reason melo is in the discussion is because the knicks are winning.

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Obviously...

Durant, LeBron, Melo, or Duncan wouldn't be in the MVP discussion if they weren't winning.
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Re: Race to the MVP pt. II 

Post#377 » by Albert23 » Fri Dec 14, 2012 5:12 pm

fallacy wrote:26 pts, 9 rebs, 7 asts, 1.5 stls, 1 blk, 3 TO, .54/.44/.68 .602 ts% 30.3 PER, 14-6


27 pts, 9 rebs, 4 asts, 2 stls, 1 blk, 3 TO, .51/.43/.89 .642 ts%, 28.0 PER, 18-4

>>>

28 pts, 6 rebs, 2 asts, 1 stls, 1 blk, 3 TO, .47/.46/.81 .592 ts%, 26.1 PER, 17-5


1. Durant
2. Melo

3. Lebron

Why didn't you post LeBron's stats? I added them above but I'm not certain how it puts him so much lower the other duo when he screams efficiency.
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Re: Race to the MVP pt. II 

Post#378 » by fallacy » Fri Dec 14, 2012 5:16 pm

Albert23 wrote:
fallacy wrote:26 pts, 9 rebs, 7 asts, 1.5 stls, 1 blk, 3 TO, .54/.44/.68 .602 ts% 30.3 PER, 14-6


27 pts, 9 rebs, 4 asts, 2 stls, 1 blk, 3 TO, .51/.43/.89 .642 ts%, 28.0 PER, 18-4

>>>

28 pts, 6 rebs, 2 asts, 1 stls, 1 blk, 3 TO, .47/.46/.81 .592 ts%, 26.1 PER, 17-5


1. Durant
2. Melo

3. Lebron

Why didn't you post LeBron's stats? I added them above but I'm not certain how it puts him so much lower the other duo when he screams efficiency.


The space was an accident :lol:

I didn't put lebron on there because as long as the knicks are better than the Heat, Lebron has no chance to win the MVP. His efficiency is good, better than Melo, but he's far from Durant's level of efficiency due to his awful free throw shooting
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Re: Race to the MVP pt. II 

Post#379 » by SweetTouch » Fri Dec 14, 2012 5:17 pm

damn I thought KD was still averaging like 12 rpg like the beginning of the season
Stop being so disrespectful.
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Re: Race to the MVP pt. II 

Post#380 » by Albert23 » Fri Dec 14, 2012 5:51 pm

fallacy wrote:
Albert23 wrote:
fallacy wrote:26 pts, 9 rebs, 7 asts, 1.5 stls, 1 blk, 3 TO, .54/.44/.68 .602 ts% 30.3 PER, 14-6


27 pts, 9 rebs, 4 asts, 2 stls, 1 blk, 3 TO, .51/.43/.89 .642 ts%, 28.0 PER, 18-4

>>>

28 pts, 6 rebs, 2 asts, 1 stls, 1 blk, 3 TO, .47/.46/.81 .592 ts%, 26.1 PER, 17-5


1. Durant
2. Melo

3. Lebron

Why didn't you post LeBron's stats? I added them above but I'm not certain how it puts him so much lower the other duo when he screams efficiency.


The space was an accident :lol:

I didn't put lebron on there because as long as the knicks are better than the Heat, Lebron has no chance to win the MVP. His efficiency is good, better than Melo, but he's far from Durant's level of efficiency due to his awful free throw shooting

Well it certainly did not stop LeBron last year. The Bulls were seen as much more coherent and their defense was stifling... but LeBron won the hearts of most MVP voters. Regarding LBJ's efficiency, it is much better than Melo's, correct. But "far from Durant's level" simply due to free throws? In what other category does KD beat LBJ in efficiency? How about the defensive abilities of the two? The passing/playmaking abilities? Their post play? Fortunately, the PER seems to understand the disparity between the two and displays it as such.

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