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Why does bryant attempt so many shots in 1st half of games?

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Post#81 Re: Why does bryant attempt so many shots in
Fri Dec 14, 2012 10:55 pm by microfib4thewin

markjay wrote:Actually, that is spectacularly false. A recent published analysis indicated that Kobe's missed shots resulted in offensive rebounds, and successful put backs, at one of the highest rates in the league -- which is one of the reasons he has such a high offensive rating. So you have it exactly opposite.


With guys like Dwight/Gasol/Odom/Bynum it's not a surprise the Lakers have always been amongst the best at grabbing offensive boards. Would you see the same phenomenon if he still had to play with the likes of Kwame Brown or Chris Mihm?

Kobe's style has always been detrimental to playing team basketball. What helped cover up Kobe's lack of playmaking is the bigs Kobe gets to play with. Shaq is great at drawing and passing out of double teams, and Odom/Gasol is a versatile frontcourt that can attack a defense in many ways. In general, Kobe had the most team success when his frontcourt partners are great passers. With Gasol being pushed out of the perimeter to make room for Bynum/Dwight and Dwight being a terrible initiator you no longer see the same rhythm with the Laker's offense compared to their 2 peat period.

If Kobe continues to play like a madman without fundamentals like years past then the team is not going to get anywhere no matter what changes they make to the roster or the coaching staff. In the end you only have Kobe to blame because he could not be the leader the team needs.
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Post#82 Re: Why does bryant attempt so many shots in
Fri Dec 14, 2012 11:10 pm by KingCuban

va-mos wrote:
KingCuban wrote:Honestly, these Kobe threads are down right laughable at this point, given his numbers his year are at a career best, which is incredible given its his 17th NBA season.

His defense isn't great, but the whole team is horrible at this.

They just gave up 55 points to the Wizards up to half time. 55 points to the Wizards.

The front office has made some really questionable decisions of late, which has lead to far more problems in the make up of the team.

Kobe and his season to date, is not the reason why this team is losing.


The more you hold the ball in the D'Ant offense, the more the team suffers. Kobe is a holder. Doesn't matter what his shoot% is (.473% so far this season, including .446 in December and 9-29 in a 102-96 win over the lowly Wizards today), he is preventing the flow of the D'Ant offense. The only man you want dominating the ball is the man who distributes the ball. We'll have to wait and see if Kobe allows Nash to do the job or not. Most experts doubt it.


Outside of Jodie Meeks, what players on LA fit what D'Antoni runs?

Nash is out, so don't include him to date, as is Pau.

On this current Lakers team, the role players around Dwight and Kobe are poor offensive players, in D'Antoni's system or not.

This is something they can't address this season.

Look at the Phoenix teams, they had 5-6 good to great shooters that Nash could drop the ball too.

Aside from Meeks and Nash himself, they have no elite spot up jump shooters.
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Post#83 Re: Why does bryant attempt so many shots in
Fri Dec 14, 2012 11:13 pm by MistyMountain20

microfib4thewin wrote:
With guys like Dwight/Gasol/Odom/Bynum it's not a surprise the Lakers have always been amongst the best at grabbing offensive boards. Would you see the same phenomenon if he still had to play with the likes of Kwame Brown or Chris Mihm?


Begging the question? When you find out, let me know, okay?

Kobe's style has always been detrimental to playing team basketball. What helped cover up Kobe's lack of playmaking is the bigs Kobe gets to play with. Shaq is great at drawing and passing out of double teams, and Odom/Gasol is a versatile frontcourt that can attack a defense in many ways. In general, Kobe had the most team success when his frontcourt partners are great passers. With Gasol being pushed out of the perimeter to make room for Bynum/Dwight and Dwight being a terrible initiator you no longer see the same rhythm with the Laker's offense compared to their 2 peat period.


The highlighted part is of course ridiculous, but this a poster who said Kobe only passes in situations where he is desperate and never to set up a play for someone else.

And also kudos to false dichotomy you set up. There could only be two reasons as to why the Lakers are stuggling; either the Lakers have a great passing frontline or they don't. THAT'S the reason they have been so successful over the years. Other variables like having to play your third and fourth string Point Guards, 3 different coaches, 6 different starting lineup to date etc, phooey, who needs em'! We know the right answer don't we! Boy you made that easy.

If Kobe continues to play like a madman without fundamentals like years past then the team is not going to get anywhere no matter what changes they make to the roster or the coaching staff. In the end you only have Kobe to blame because he could not be the leader the team needs.


Is it bothering you at the current moment that Bryant is actually playing the most efficient basketball of his career? Cause surely you can't touch on that now (not like you ever could before), but now you have to fallback on the dreaded "eye test"! The horror. You have to use throwaway flimsy terms like "continues to play like a madman" just to have some kind of structured argument.

For the record Kobe was ass tonight, and recently he has played some hero ball (but not for the most part). If you want to say his defense has been terrible, I think you'd have a solid argument (but guards aren't that important to defense, right?). But the rest of your post is just so horribly off, but what can you do when madman Bryant is all-by-himself throwing away the Laker's season.
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Post#84 Re: Why does bryant attempt so many shots in
Fri Dec 14, 2012 11:15 pm by KingCuban

PurpleRooster wrote:
va-mos wrote:
KingCuban wrote:Honestly, these Kobe threads are down right laughable at this point, given his numbers his year are at a career best, which is incredible given its his 17th NBA season.


So he is putting up good volume scoring, on what is turning into diminishing efficiency?

OK great, but he hasn't as of yet helped facilitate a successful winning formula or team offense.

His defense is abysmal. Great....it is his 17th season, but do we all have to slobber over him playing in a way that many people don't care to classify as winning basketball?

As someone that learned to respect Bryant from 2008-2011...I am very dissapointed in how he is playing the game right now.

For the enthusiasts of the scoring title, and people who love to see players strive for that award...kudos, they should be happy.

(fully prepared to be called a hater.)


1. It's not good, its terrific efficiency. Its at Durant elite levels.

2. Who else on the current group that are playing for the Lakers can make a play outside of Howard, who to date, looks much better in the half court surrounded by shooters, which the Lakers have virtually none of.

Jodie Meeks may become one of the Lakers most important players simply because he spaces the floor, something no one on this team and in the offense they're running is doing well.
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Post#85 Re: Why does bryant attempt so many shots in
Sat Dec 15, 2012 2:49 am by djay

spearsy23 wrote:
djay wrote:The Kobe shot attempt is irrelevant. The biggest missing point and I blame this on Kobe for the Lakers woe more than anything else is that he doesn't fill a hole on this team. This team desperately, and I repeat the word DESPERATE, needed a playmaker to give the role player and DH easy bucket. Fact is Kobe hasn't done a good job of playmaking and instead going isolation, which in turn, hurt the team offensive flow and making everyone rhymes off. This also, in turn, affect their defense. There's a saying, when everyone feel involved on offense, they play better, rotate, try harder on defense. When you are a superstar making 27 millions dollar, you have to fill a void on this team. Kobe is too concentrated on scoring. If you put a healthy Wade or even a Jame Harden in replace of Kobe, this team would, at least, be .500. Fact is the Lakers needs someone to drive and kick and throw lobs to DH12, to give him easy bucket. Right now, they are not getting easy bucket and it affecting their defense.

...Kobe isn't that and really never has been. Why does it suddenly fall on him to completely remake his game? That doesn't happen in the nba, guys don't just change who they are. Why not as Dwight to fill the playmaker void? Or artest? Or Meeks? It's because that's not who they are, but for some reason Kobe is suddenly supposed to be that guy?

You must not watch Kobe in his entire career. He was the Lakers playmaker during the Shaq era! After Shaq, he transformed himself into a scorer 1st. He even admitted that he was a playmaker out of necessity during Shaq era but he always want to be a scorer.
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Post#86 Re: Why does bryant attempt so many shots in
Sat Dec 15, 2012 3:11 am by djay

tsherkin wrote:
djay wrote:The biggest missing point and I blame this on Kobe for the Lakers woe more than anything else is that he doesn't fill a hole on this team.


This is nonsense. You build around stars, you don't adapt your stars to the roster at hand, not to any large extent. Players can alter their games to some extent, but radically changing their games alters their competitive advantages and doesn't usually make sense. Kobe's a scorer, and he's been arguably the best scorer in the league to date this season, the way he's mixing it all up and hitting his J.

This team desperately, and I repeat the word DESPERATE, needed a playmaker to give the role player and DH easy bucket.


Given the efficacy of the offense to date, I have to say that this is blatantly incorrect.

Nonsense. When your team is missing a hole and you ARE the STAR and with the talent to do it, you have to adapt your game for the benefit of the team, at least temporarily until Nash got back. Fact is Kobe iso offense is hurting the team offensive flow. While he did his job to score at high efficiency (he comes back down to earth though), his teammate is struggling and inconsistent. The star will get their number, but how you used your number to up the game of surrounding player is what make a guy like Lebron/Nash//Cp3 so valuable to their team. They have the ability to raise the game of their teammates through their playmaking talent and score when needed.

Everyone knows the defense is the issue. BUT what caused this defense? It's Kobe isolation and fail to run back in transition? Psychologically, it affect his teammates to consistently play defense whenever he took a tough iso shot. And no he is not the best offensive threat, not at this stage of his career. He leads the league in turnover and there's a guy name Durant.
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Post#87 Re: Why does bryant attempt so many shots in
Sat Dec 15, 2012 8:03 am by tsherkin

I'm getting tired of this "Kobe misses = buckets" lameness, so let's look at this.

Kobe missed 14 shots in this game, so let's have a look.

1Q

2:30 missed a 26-footer 3pt, by which time the Knicks had already scored 30 points. Jordan Hill grabbed an offensive board.

2:05 missed a 19-footer, Jordan Hill grabbed an offensive board.

1:31 missed a 3-footer, Metta grabbed an offensive board (when Metta missed, Melo boarded and got a layup in transition)



So right away, in the game-changing quarter, it's total crap. The Knicks scored 41 points in the first quarter and literally none of those points came in transition off of a Kobe miss. There were a number of bricked 3s and other shots from Jamison, Meeks, Metta and so forth that were turned around quickly, but it was not Kobe's fault.

After the first, the Knicks scored 27, 25 and 23 points, declining in efficacy as their shots cooled down and they sat Melo. They'd on their damage already.

2Q

7:07 missed 3, Prigioni rebounds, Sheed hits a 3

Right after that, Kobe turned it over to Prigioni on a bad pass, then stole it back and Ebanks got a layup.

4:31 Kobe misses a layup, the Knicks turn it around but blow the layup at the other end.

1:04 Kobe misses a 3, Knicks turn it around for a dunk off of Kidd-to-Brewer.

0:18 Kobe missed a 4-footer but L.A. got the team offensive rebound.

3Q

11:41 Kobe misses, Kidd rebounds but Metta steals it from Felton.

8:41 misses a 12-footer, but New York blows the shot and Ebanks secures the board.

Given how hot he was in the second quarter and how neither of those shots turned into points turned around the other way, it's not really a big deal (especially since similar stuff happened to Melo, Felton, etc). At this stage, Kobe's given up 5 points on the basis of transition turnarounds from missed shots.

4Q

9:27 missed a 3, Jamison secures the defensive board on the missed shot that resulted

3:30 missed a 3, Metta gets the offensive board

0:14 grabs an offensive board, misses the tip, then fouls Kidd trying to get possession back

0:06 missed a 3, Felton rebounds, game over.

So yeah. 5 points all game in a 9-point loss. There were far, FAR worse issues. They gave up 14 points off of turnovers, which is right away like 5x more problematic than the issue of shots off of Kobe's misses. It really is quite foolish to continue this train of thought; the Knicks game was not one where Kobe's shot selection really murdered the team. That people continue to pursue this is embarrassing.

Yes, Kobe's shot selection has always needed work but people need to remember this is a guy around whom two title squads were built and who was a huge part of 3 others (consecutively, no less). The guy is a legendary player, one of the best ever. He's not MJ, but he's damned good and with his style of play comes certain drawbacks, the same as with ANY other player. He thinks he's the best scoring option all of the time; he passes with similar frequency and efficacy as does MJ. He's a little bit in love with the 3, which causes problems at times but he tends not to bomb away when his teammates are going. This post here is about as definitive as it gets: it is FLATLY WRONG to assert that Kobe's shot selection caused this huge shift and turnaround on the team, or exerted huge pressure on their defense. Again, remember that the Lakers took 37 3PA and made only 12 of them. Jamison, Metta, Duhon, Ebanks and Meeks combined to miss 19 3PA. Metta was 3-6, so he gets a pass. Kobe was 5/11, missing only 6. The other guys combined to miss THREE TIMES as many 3PA.

Where's the issue?

Hint: If you say "Kobe," then you don't know what you're talking about and are rabidly anti-Kobe and have no sense of balance or perspective.

djay wrote:Nonsense. When your team is missing a hole and you ARE the STAR and with the talent to do it, you have to adapt your game for the benefit of the team, at least temporarily until Nash got back. Fact is Kobe iso offense is hurting the team offensive flow.


This is a foolish comment. You can't adapt a star player THAT much to the nature of the team. Meantime, Kobe's scoring game has been the foundation of three straight Finals appearances (including consecutive titles), and that's AFTER partnering up for three straight titles and four Finals appearances in five seasons alongside Shaq. I can't imagine how you think this is legitimate argumentation.

Everyone knows the defense is the issue. BUT what caused this defense? It's Kobe isolation and fail to run back in transition? Psychologically, it affect his teammates to consistently play defense whenever he took a tough iso shot. And no he is not the best offensive threat, not at this stage of his career. He leads the league in turnover and there's a guy name Durant.


If his teammates are as weak-minded as that, not running back in transition because they're lazy toolbags who didn't get a shot, then they are useless players. That is plain. How do you think Steve Kerr felt? He tended to take about 6 shots per game for the Bulls. What about Ho Grant? He averaged 10+ FGA/g only three times in his Chicago career.

In this game, Jamison is the only one who wasn't consistently involved after the first quarter. Metta took 15 shots, Duhon took 6, Kobe took only 24 (more than his average, but right about what his average has been at for a decade) and then Ebanks, Meeks and Dwight all took 11 shots.

Dwight is averaging 11 FGA/g this season. In Orlando, he typically averaged 12-13. Given that he's coming to a team with the spread of talent that the Lakers have, it's not surprising that his usage has gone down a little, especially since there is still Pau to consider (he's played 17 of the 24 games).

Meeks averages 6.5 FGA/g, Ebanks 4.3 and Duhon 3.4. Metta averages 10.5

You don't have a leg to stand on here, guys were getting more shots than usual, the ball was whipping around, there were tons of 3s from kick-outs and swing passes as the ball moved from corner to corner or from the post to the wing. There is nothing to the notion that these guys were feeling lazy because they weren't involved in the offense, that's total crap.
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Post#88 Re: Why does bryant attempt so many shots in
Sat Dec 15, 2012 8:15 am by markjay

microfib4thewin wrote:
markjay wrote:Actually, that is spectacularly false. A recent published analysis indicated that Kobe's missed shots resulted in offensive rebounds, and successful put backs, at one of the highest rates in the league -- which is one of the reasons he has such a high offensive rating. So you have it exactly opposite.


With guys like Dwight/Gasol/Odom/Bynum it's not a surprise the Lakers have always been amongst the best at grabbing offensive boards. Would you see the same phenomenon if he still had to play with the likes of Kwame Brown or Chris Mihm?

Kobe's style has always been detrimental to playing team basketball. What helped cover up Kobe's lack of playmaking is the bigs Kobe gets to play with. Shaq is great at drawing and passing out of double teams, and Odom/Gasol is a versatile frontcourt that can attack a defense in many ways. In general, Kobe had the most team success when his frontcourt partners are great passers. With Gasol being pushed out of the perimeter to make room for Bynum/Dwight and Dwight being a terrible initiator you no longer see the same rhythm with the Laker's offense compared to their 2 peat period.

If Kobe continues to play like a madman without fundamentals like years past then the team is not going to get anywhere no matter what changes they make to the roster or the coaching staff. In the end you only have Kobe to blame because he could not be the leader the team needs.


The offensive rebound and put back rate on Kobe's misses has been higher than for misses by other Lakers. That can't be due to the fact that the Lakers have good bigs.

The point was and is wrong. People just pull things out of their hat to attack Kobe.
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Post#89 Re: Why does bryant attempt so many shots in
Sat Dec 15, 2012 8:15 am by starquest52

Kobes doing a pretty good job especially considering all the injuries the lakers have dealt with.


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Post#90 Re: Why does bryant attempt so many shots in
Sat Dec 15, 2012 8:40 am by tsherkin

microfib4thewin wrote:If Kobe continues to play like a madman without fundamentals like years past then the team is not going to get anywhere no matter what changes they make to the roster or the coaching staff. In the end you only have Kobe to blame because he could not be the leader the team needs.


5 titles on team with contention-quality rosters seem to disagree vehemently with the idea that Kobe clashes with a winning agenda. Remember that. Kobe's got 5 rings in 7 Finals appearances. The lowest ORTG the team has ever had was the 03-04 105.5, which was 6th in the league at the nadir of league offensive efficiency, just prior to the rules changes. From 05 through 07 (aka pre-Gasol), the Lakers were still 7th (108.1), 8th (108.4) and 7th (108.6) in offensive efficiency, and that's with basically Chris Mihm, Kwame Brown and so forth running L.A.'s frontcourt. Oh, and we can't forget the immortal Slava Medvedenko and the clutch Samaki Walker, can we? To say nothing of Smush Parker and the gang.

Even last year, with an aged Kobe, no Odom and an incompetent coach, the Lakers were at 106.0 and 10th in the league offensively. They were able to drive forward on the back of Kobe's offensive performance and make it into the second round after the equivalent of a 51-win season (and to be fair, the lockout suppressed overall offensive efficiency). I think that says a lot. Kobe's still capable of driving very good teams. You can't win the title every year and titles are won with the proper mix of savvy coaching, management support and player performance. Let's not forget how awful was Metta last season, or that L.A. as a whole was 26th in 3P% on the season. Or that Kobe missed 8 RS games, Bynum missed 6, they had a mid-season trade, their coach was a boob, etc.

The idea that Kobe doesn't mix with a plan to win is just absurd, it's all he's done throughout his entire career. There have been rough patches here and there, but the Lakers have also experienced some major upheavals during the 17 years that Kobe's been on the team. That's a long time, man. Shaq trade, Odom going crazy, Phil leaving/the lockout, various injuries (including several through which Kobe himself has played), these are not minor events. Their effects stack, and the Lakers still have 5 titles in 7 appearances in that time frame.

Food for thought.

Kobe continues to be a viable franchise centerpiece, and it is asinine to suggest otherwise. He's not perfect, but no player is, all have their flaws. Kobe still gives his teams a really good chance to win. It would behoove L.A. to figure out what is making Dwight so ineffective on defense, to try hard to get healthy and to wonder how many more times going forward Jim Buss will sacrifice winning basketball to assuage his ego.
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Post#91 Re: Why does bryant attempt so many shots in
Sat Dec 15, 2012 10:24 am by djay

tsherkin wrote:This is a foolish comment. You can't adapt a star player THAT much to the nature of the team. Meantime, Kobe's scoring game has been the foundation of three straight Finals appearances (including consecutive titles), and that's AFTER partnering up for three straight titles and four Finals appearances in five seasons alongside Shaq. I can't imagine how you think this is legitimate argumentation.

I SAID for temporarily filling a HUGE HOLE on this team. When Kobe is doing all the scoring and it doesn't work, he has to know SOMETHING is seriously wrong with his game. This team SHOULD NEVER be under .500 even with just a single DH12.

And I don't like to mention about past tense. Fact is it's over 2 years playing Kobe iso and it definitely got the Lakers no where. And for your information, Kobe did plenty of playmaking during those championship years. He was the only guy who can create for himself and other.

tsherkin wrote:If his teammates are as weak-minded as that, not running back in transition because they're lazy toolbags who didn't get a shot, then they are useless players. That is plain. How do you think Steve Kerr felt? He tended to take about 6 shots per game for the Bulls. What about Ho Grant? He averaged 10+ FGA/g only three times in his Chicago career.

In this game, Jamison is the only one who wasn't consistently involved after the first quarter. Metta took 15 shots, Duhon took 6, Kobe took only 24 (more than his average, but right about what his average has been at for a decade) and then Ebanks, Meeks and Dwight all took 11 shots.

Dwight is averaging 11 FGA/g this season. In Orlando, he typically averaged 12-13. Given that he's coming to a team with the spread of talent that the Lakers have, it's not surprising that his usage has gone down a little, especially since there is still Pau to consider (he's played 17 of the 24 games).

Meeks averages 6.5 FGA/g, Ebanks 4.3 and Duhon 3.4. Metta averages 10.5

You don't have a leg to stand on here, guys were getting more shots than usual, the ball was whipping around, there were tons of 3s from kick-outs and swing passes as the ball moved from corner to corner or from the post to the wing. There is nothing to the notion that these guys were feeling lazy because they weren't involved in the offense, that's total crap.

Have you ever play on a basketball court where "that guy" tales any shot he wants and doesn't commit himself on defense, how does that make you feel as a teammate of his? You can't blame his teammate for not playing defense when their star is selfishly trying to pad stat while not putting the same effort on defense.
What a meaningless stat you brought up there. DH12 usage should NOT goes down when he was in his PRIME compare to a guy like Pau/Kobe no matter how much you tried to spin about talent spreading.

Secondly, the pace and MDA has a lot to do with those guys increase fga. Those shots they took are either jacking up or from Kobe isolation majority of the times. They are not within the true form of MDA playmaking offense.
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Post#92 Re: Why does bryant attempt so many shots in
Sat Dec 15, 2012 12:19 pm by microfib4thewin

tsherkin wrote:5 titles on team with contention-quality rosters seem to disagree vehemently with the idea that Kobe clashes with a winning agenda. Remember that. Kobe's got 5 rings in 7 Finals appearances. The lowest ORTG the team has ever had was the 03-04 105.5, which was 6th in the league at the nadir of league offensive efficiency, just prior to the rules changes. From 05 through 07 (aka pre-Gasol), the Lakers were still 7th (108.1), 8th (108.4) and 7th (108.6) in offensive efficiency, and that's with basically Chris Mihm, Kwame Brown and so forth running L.A.'s frontcourt. Oh, and we can't forget the immortal Slava Medvedenko and the clutch Samaki Walker, can we? To say nothing of Smush Parker and the gang.


That was primarily because Phil was there to manage Kobe. We have two and a third of a season thus far to evaluate Kobe when he isn't being coached by Phil. It's not much, but I think even you can agree Kobe hasn't elevated his team to a level that you would expect from a player whose primary claim to greatness was his 5 rings.

tsherkin wrote:Even last year, with an aged Kobe, no Odom and an incompetent coach, the Lakers were at 106.0 and 10th in the league offensively. They were able to drive forward on the back of Kobe's offensive performance and make it into the second round after the equivalent of a 51-win season (and to be fair, the lockout suppressed overall offensive efficiency). I think that says a lot. Kobe's still capable of driving very good teams. You can't win the title every year and titles are won with the proper mix of savvy coaching, management support and player performance. Let's not forget how awful was Metta last season, or that L.A. as a whole was 26th in 3P% on the season. Or that Kobe missed 8 RS games, Bynum missed 6, they had a mid-season trade, their coach was a boob, etc.


Their record made them look better than they actually are due to winning a lot of close games against mostly average teams. Their Pythagorean Wins would be 45 for a full season and their SRS was 1.96. The Lakers ranked 13th in both categories. That's not good, that's mediocre. Again, I have to hammer the point about the Laker's performance because his supporters like to say Kobe makes his teammates better and his presence is what makes his team a winner, but we are not seeing any of that since Phil left. Once Kobe's teammates stopped playing well we went to playing the blame game on Kobe's teammates and conveniently ignore what was said about Kobe in year's past when his team was playing well.


tsherkin wrote:The idea that Kobe doesn't mix with a plan to win is just absurd, it's all he's done throughout his entire career. There have been rough patches here and there, but the Lakers have also experienced some major upheavals during the 17 years that Kobe's been on the team. That's a long time, man. Shaq trade, Odom going crazy, Phil leaving/the lockout, various injuries (including several through which Kobe himself has played), these are not minor events. Their effects stack, and the Lakers still have 5 titles in 7 appearances in that time frame.


Please don't talk about the changes in Kobe's environment and make it sound negative. He went from prime Shaq to getting Gasol for nothing and now he got both Dwight and Nash in the offseason. No other stars have been as fortunate as he has. So what if there was a 3 year period when he played with crappy teams? Other stars have done that for an even longer period of time and they get called career losers because they can't bring their JV team to a title. Let's just say I didn't shred a tear Kobe only has to suffer 3 years of mediocrity.

tsherkin wrote:Kobe continues to be a viable franchise centerpiece, and it is asinine to suggest otherwise. He's not perfect, but no player is, all have their flaws. Kobe still gives his teams a really good chance to win. It would behoove L.A. to figure out what is making Dwight so ineffective on defense, to try hard to get healthy and to wonder how many more times going forward Jim Buss will sacrifice winning basketball to assuage his ego.


Kobe is a franchise player, but is he a Tim Duncan/Lebron kind of franchise player or is he more of a Durant/Melo type of franchise player where you need to surround him with a great abundance of talent in order to contend? Assess the situation carefully, the Lakers were expected to be top 3 in the west after their roster is finalized. They got Dwight and Nash, they patched up their lack of depth with Jamison and Meeks. They were expected to go far this time. Look at the current Lakers. So far Nash hasn't played, Gasol has been a non-factor, even so, you still have two top 10 players in Kobe and Dwight. When two top 10 players are leading the team to a sub .500 record where they can potentially lose against the worst teams in the league you know something doesn't add up. Kobe has been playing brilliant individually speaking, and Dwight is still a star quality player despite playing worse than last year, could it be that maybe, just maybe, Kobe's influence as a franchise player is not as great as some people believe?

I don't blame Kobe for his teammates struggling because I never believed that Kobe has the ability to empower his teammates. He's not the ultimate winner of the last decade, he's just AI/T-Mac with better longevity who would not be in any top 10 conversations if he didn't play for the best franchise and the best coach in history.
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Post#93 Re: Why does bryant attempt so many shots in
Sat Dec 15, 2012 1:21 pm by tsherkin

microfib4thewin wrote:It's not much, but I think even you can agree Kobe hasn't elevated his team to a level that you would expect from a player whose primary claim to greatness was his 5 rings.


He's had Mike Brown, who isn't a good head coach. He lost Odom and had no bench. There was a lockout-compressed season. This is weak analysis.

they patched up their lack of depth with Jamison and Meeks.


Do you understand the depth of failure in this statement?

So far Nash hasn't played, Gasol has been a non-factor,


Nash has 2 games, yeah, but Gasol has himself missed 7 and played with a knee injury for several before finally stopping.

even so, you still have two top 10 players in Kobe and Dwight.


One of whom is coming off of back surgery and hasn't had a huge defensive impact as he usually does.

He's not the ultimate winner of the last decade, he's just AI/T-Mac with better longevity


And considerably superior scoring efficiency.

who would not be in any top 10 conversations if he didn't play for the best franchise and the best coach in history.


An empty comment. Pretty much anyone in the top 10 had significant support in winning multiple titles. Magic and Shaq played for the same organization, Bird was surrounded with talent, MJ also had Phil with Pippen and an All-Star PF (one was a DPOY)... I could go on, but the point is made.
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Post#94 Re: Why does bryant attempt so many shots in
Sat Dec 15, 2012 1:57 pm by JellosJigglin

What we have here is tsherkin dropping fact after fact to support his arguments, but his opposition volley's with the same preconceived stereotypes about Kobe's game, facts be damned. :lol:
:evil: THEY WILL PAY FOR THEIR BASKETBALL REASONS :evil:
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Post#95 Re: Why does bryant attempt so many shots in
Sat Dec 15, 2012 3:47 pm by microfib4thewin

tsherkin wrote:He's had Mike Brown, who isn't a good head coach. He lost Odom and had no bench. There was a lockout-compressed season. This is weak analysis.


What did Duncan do in his first shortened season? Won a title when Pop was still more of a front office guy than a head coach. What did Lebron do in his first shortened season? Won a title with a mediocre coach while Bosh missed half of the playoffs with a worse version of Kwame Brown as a center. The important point here isn't that they won and Kobe didn't. The point here is that the teams they play for functioned much better as a team than the Lakers did last year despite not having the best of circumstances. Again, where is the effect that Kobe is able to empower his team and make the role players have career years? No one seems to be able to answer that question these days ever since we are done talking about Odom's fall from grace.

tsherkin wrote:An empty comment. Pretty much anyone in the top 10 had significant support in winning multiple titles. Magic and Shaq played for the same organization, Bird was surrounded with talent, MJ also had Phil with Pippen and an All-Star PF (one was a DPOY)... I could go on, but the point is made.


Magic dealt with the departure of Riley and Kareem smoothly. The Lakers was still a great team, but Magic was the constant here that allowed the Lakers to compete even when they transitioned from a full court to a half court team. The Celtics weren't loaded with talent when Bird won his first title. Shaq had success with three different organizations and MJ has also won before Pippen became an All-NBA 1st team player that we remember him as. Let's not forget MJ won six while playing for a crappy ownership and a GM that wants to butt heads.

Now we look at Kobe, what did he have when his teams won? Best ownership by far in NBA history, top tier management, one of the best if not the best coach in history, prime Shaq and an extremely talented frontcourt in Odom and Gasol, and beating teams in the playoffs as the favorite except the '01 Spurs and the '02 Kings. Everything has to go right in order for Kobe to get his ring, so when Kobe's team does win a title one has to wonder how much of that was due to Kobe's greatness.

Certainly every player has flaws, but Kobe is the one that always gets the most excuses when he falls short by far compared to other greats. I think the following years will be interesting for evaluating Kobe. If he stops playing at the star level then there's not much to add, but if he continues playing at an elite level while his team struggles it will put a bigger dent to the 5 ring argument and more people will question how much Kobe's presence really means on the teams he won a title with.
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Post#96 Re: Why does bryant attempt so many shots in
Sat Dec 15, 2012 5:03 pm by tsherkin

microfib4thewin wrote:What did Duncan do in his first shortened season? Won a title when Pop was still more of a front office guy than a head coach. What did Lebron do in his first shortened season? Won a title with a mediocre coach while Bosh missed half of the playoffs with a worse version of Kwame Brown as a center.


This is embarrassing logic.

In the 99 season, Duncan was playing with a 16/10/2 center who was still one of the best defenders in the league as his frontcourt partner. He also drew more fouls than Duncan did on like 6 fewer shots. Robinson posted a .689 FTA/FGA rate for 7.4 FTA/g against 10.8 FGA/g. Duncan managed 7.2 FTA/g against 16.9 FGA/g, or .424.

That makes a difference, nevermind Sean Elliott, Avery Johnson or Pops' presence instead of enduring Mike Brown.

Lebron played alongside Wade and Bosh. Wade was a 22/5/4.5 player on strong efficiency (+3.2% over league average, right in the range of the best seasons Kobe's ever had in terms of efficiency differential). They had some injury troubles, but he was big to have as a second star.

In 2012, Kobe lost the reigning 6MOY, lost a good coach in exchange for a bad one, Metta turned into a stone-handed and incompetent tool and they struggled to get bench production.

These are not comparable team contexts, so your comparison doesn't work at all. You're trying to say that they continued to function, but they had better overall talent around their star and a superior management/coaching dynamic. Considerably so, at that.

Magic dealt with the departure of Riley and Kareem smoothly.


Yes, because Scott, Cooper and Worthy continued to be awesome and Scott continued to increase his offensive responsibility effectively. He didn't lack the talent requisite for high-levelcompetition and title contention.

The Celtics weren't loaded with talent when Bird won his first title.


Did you want to try that again?

When the Celtics won their first title in 1981 with Larry, besides Bird they still had Robert Parish, Cedric Maxwell, Tiny Archibald and Kevin McHale (in his rookie season). That's a lot of talent.

Shaq had success with three different organizations


And he had Penny, Kobe and Wade alongside him in all of the seasons where he had strong team success. Like every other player ever in NBA history, he had a strong team around him. He also enjoyed Phil Jackson, Stan Van Gundy and Pat Riley coaching him, on teams with strong management support crafting a solid foundation.

and MJ has also won before Pippen became an All-NBA 1st team player that we remember him as.


Jordan didn't win titles until Pippen became that player and he only made it the ECFs for the first time in 88-89, Pippen's second season. Also Ho Grant's second season. He also had Doug Collins, not Mike Brown. He also had 3-time 3pt shootout champion Craig Hodges. Pip that year was a 14/6/3.5 player who was lights-out from 3 in the playoffs and developing into the defender we remember. But the Bulls didn't get past the Pistons until he developed further (and they declined from age).

These are really poor choices as examples because they are all tied together by the fact that the teams had better roster situations than the 2012 Lakers.

Let's not forget MJ won six while playing for a crappy ownership and a GM that wants to butt heads.


You say crappy ownership, but they still turned Olden Polynice into Pippen, drafted Grant, replaced Grant with 2-time DPOY Dennis Rodman, found Kukoc, got a workable center rotation (be it Cartwright or whomever else) and got Phil Jackson into place to tie everything together. It'd be foolish to lament Chicago ownership and management. Krause was crazy and wanted more credit than he got, but he still topped a franchise that put the appropriate talent in place to facilitate contention.

Awful, awful post.
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Post#97 Re: Why does bryant attempt so many shots in
Sat Dec 15, 2012 5:18 pm by tsherkin

djay wrote:I SAID for temporarily filling a HUGE HOLE on this team. When Kobe is doing all the scoring and it doesn't work, he has to know SOMETHING is seriously wrong with his game.


Or, and here's a twist, it means that the roster depth isn't there. You can't rely on a player to do everything. Witness Lebron James not really winning until he had effective spot-up shooters and defensive roleplayers around him in Cleveland. Witness the Lakers not defending or doing a great job of sticking open 3s around Kobe. 1+1 = 2, not 17, man.

And I don't like to mention about past tense.


Too bad; history is relevant.

Fact is it's over 2 years playing Kobe iso and it definitely got the Lakers no where. And for your information, Kobe did plenty of playmaking during those championship years. He was the only guy who can create for himself and other.


Shaq did plenty of playmaking. During the title years, the Lakers ran two-guard front in the triangle and used a lot of really strong team passing and read-and-react plays to attack a defense and Kobe's style of play wasn't a ton different than it is now... save that it was metered by the fact that they had a 27+ ppg big dominating the post and they had strong roleplayers around him. Yes, he initiated the attack and made the right plays a lot of the time in the triangle, but they had a sensible offensive system backed by a strong defense and appropriate roster talent.


Have you ever play on a basketball court where "that guy" tales any shot he wants and doesn't commit himself on defense, how does that make you feel as a teammate of his? You can't blame his teammate for not playing defense when their star is selfishly trying to pad stat while not putting the same effort on defense.


That's awfully incorrect. You can very much blame them for that. Look at the Bulls in their title years. Jordan was taking 20% more shots per game than is Kobe right now and you're looking at the same kind of scenario, only his guys made shots and hustled their butts off on defense. By your logic, when MJ took "any shot he wants," they should have been moping and slacking and walking up the court and stuff. Jordan was committed on D but, especially as he got older, he gambled and over-extended himself, took plays off to conserve energy and so forth all of the time. Kobe isn't as good as was Jordan, but the situation is highly similar. The difference here is that you're not getting the same support from the peripheral players. Part of that is the health of Gasol and Howard. Some of it is that Mike D'Antoni is a lamentably incompetent defensive coach who doesn't have a strong Xs and Os assistant. The latter fact isn't news, he's proven it for over 8 years at the NBA across three different franchises now. He's terrible and lazy about coaching defense, it's not what he knows how to implement and it's a problem. Brown wasn't doing any better, of course, but for most of his time, he didn't have Odom (a key part of L.A.'s defense) or Dwight (who wasn't fully healthy anyway).

What a meaningless stat you brought up there. DH12 usage should NOT goes down when he was in his PRIME compare to a guy like Pau/Kobe no matter how much you tried to spin about talent spreading.


That's as foolish a comment as you'll ever find. 17 games of Pau Gasol plus one of the greatest scorers in NBA history, Dwight's still near to his customary level of usage and you're complaining? Yeah, in a game here and there they should have gone to him more. Against the Wizards, for example, Kobe should have shot less and fed Dwight more. That game was a bad game for Kobe. Dwight's usage is only 0.8% below what it was in the 09-10 season, however, right in the middle of his Orlando prime, so you're basically wrong. Not at all surprising, but there it is. You'll also notice that despite posting the second-highest draw rate of the last 7 or 8 years of his career, because Dwight is shooting 49.2% from the line (the second-worst mark of his career) instead of his career average of 58.4%, he's leaving about 1.1 ppg on the table as a result of his brick-laying at the charity stripe. +1.1 ppg would have him at 19.3 ppg on 11.1 FGA/g, and would take his TS% from 57.6% to 61%.

Given that, and his not-full health, I question the value of your comments here. Dwight isn't playing anywhere near his usual level of defense and his blowing shots at the line the way he did last year in Orlando, which is limiting his overall effectiveness. Given that and his limited passing game, lack of range and so forth, the Lakers shouldn't been consistently using him much more than they are now, especially with Kobe still playing so efficiently. As his overall efficiency declines, they should have him spreading the ball more to Pau (when he's healthy) and Dwight (especially as he quits sucking in several other regards). But right now, he's seeing the ball quite a lot to begin with and his game doesn't support the style of play that MAD has implemented. He can't be Amare because he can't shoot from range effectively and L.A.'s off-ball movement when he isolates in the post isn't great. Kobe's is fine, but the spacing is off because Jamison sucks and the other roleplayers aren't really that good at moving around without the ball. Artest is a big issue here, he crowds things, especially when he's storm-bricking it, though he's played solidly to date. Last year, though, blech.

Secondly, the pace and MDA has a lot to do with those guys increase fga. Those shots they took are either jacking up or from Kobe isolation majority of the times.


Direct falsehood. Especially since we were talking about the New York game. I wasn't talking about a seasonal increase in FGA/g, I was talking about the New York game specifically and you're entirely wrong to assert that they were jacking up or from Kobe isolation. They were mostly on swing passes and kick-outs, good, open looks generated by the offense.

You are wrong.

They are not within the true form of MDA playmaking offense.


MDA doesn't have a "playmaking offense," he has a "give the ball to the PG and hope for the best while running routes in transition" offense. If you'd watched Phoenix or New York, you'd realize that. He relies heavily upon having a PG, a pass-first PG to operate his system. That's not Kobe's style of play, nor was it a sensible system to implement. Now, with the expectation of Nash's presence on the court, it makes a little more sense but then again... Nash ISN'T playing! Two of their starters are missing significant time and we're pissing and moaning that L.A. isn't playing at maximum efficiency, which is some of the most foolish nonsense I've read on these boards in ages.
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Post#98 Re: Why does bryant attempt so many shots in
Sat Dec 15, 2012 5:23 pm by MistyMountain20

What makes it particularly awful is the use of a small and skewed sample size in order to validate his point. Self-fulfilling prophecy if I ever seen one.
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Post#99 Re: Why does bryant attempt so many shots in
Sat Dec 15, 2012 5:27 pm by tysonironmike

As usual, Tsherkin cleaning house, Microfib embarrassing himself on every topic regarding Kobe
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Post#100 Re: Why does bryant attempt so many shots in
Sat Dec 15, 2012 5:29 pm by MistyMountain20

microfib4thewin wrote:No one seems to be able to answer that question these days ever since we are done talking about Odom's fall from grace.

This point in particular caught my fancy. Remember when you used a two-week sample size in games which Kobe did not play to show how in fact Kobe was limiting LO. You're doing the same thing here.
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